D Zone system (beer league)

[Santos L Halper 90]

42 minutes ago, stick9 said:

[snip]

I see how far off the wings play the points in the NHL. Looks like they are more concerned with the break out than trying to block point shots.

That.  And they're typically more concerned with getting sticks/skates/bodies in passing lanes.  At least, they should be.  

There are always exceptions, but I coach most teams to give the strong side point the boards as far down as the hash-marks and concentrate on taking away his passing lanes.  If you're defending the passing lanes correctly, you can almost always get to the shooting lane as well; AND unless said defenseman is an exceptionally skilled shooter, he's not going to do any damage from out there, anyway.  Presuming the angle is played correctly, they're almost always forced to dump the puck in the corner and get back to their positions.  Gotta be careful not to let them get too low, though, because a savvy winger/center can trigger a low-to-high cycle which can be tricky to defend.

 

59 minutes ago, stick9 said:

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been screamed at for not being all over that point guy. Even had a center start charging out to him off draws cuz I wasn’t getting there fast enough. Of course he had no problem leaving his man down low to bang in rebounds.

[snip]

Ahhhhh...the classic "Here, let me tell you how to do your job, while I neglect mine."  It never gets old...

[chippa13 1844]

They play low off the points but they do their best to be in the shooting lane.

[psulion22 402]

18 hours ago, stick9 said:

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been screamed at for not being all over that point guy. Even had a center start charging out to him off draws cuz I wasn’t getting there fast enough. Of course he had no problem leaving his man down low to bang in rebounds.

I see how far off the wings play the points in the NHL. Looks like they are more concerned with the break out than trying to block point shots.

If you used an overload faceoff alignment, like the NHL guys do, then you wouldn't have a problem making a play on any puck lost behind the circle.  You wouldn't be chasing down the angle of that point guy.  

Or, you could just tell your center to stop losing draws clean to the point, and you wouldn't have to worry about getting there in time.

17 hours ago, Santos L Halper said:

That.  And they're typically more concerned with getting sticks/skates/bodies in passing lanes.  At least, they should be.  

There are always exceptions, but I coach most teams to give the strong side point the boards as far down as the hash-marks and concentrate on taking away his passing lanes.  If you're defending the passing lanes correctly, you can almost always get to the shooting lane as well; AND unless said defenseman is an exceptionally skilled shooter, he's not going to do any damage from out there, anyway.  Presuming the angle is played correctly, they're almost always forced to dump the puck in the corner and get back to their positions.  Gotta be careful not to let them get too low, though, because a savvy winger/center can trigger a low-to-high cycle which can be tricky to defend.

 

Ahhhhh...the classic "Here, let me tell you how to do your job, while I neglect mine."  It never gets old...

16 hours ago, chippa13 said:

They play low off the points but they do their best to be in the shooting lane.

If the only way to stop a shot was to be 2 feet from the origination point, then a goalie would never make a save. Once the shot is released, it travels in a straight line until it hits something else.  So to block that shot, you only have to be somewhere along that straight line.  By being further away you can cover more passing lanes, fill more space, break the puck out easier, and still be in a position to block the shot.  Plus, the geometry is such that if the shot angle changes, you actually have to move a shorter distance to get back into the lane by being further away.

 

[chippa13 1844]

If you're going to quote me and disagree, at least reread what I wrote first. Nothing worse than being lectured for saying exactly what the lecturer posts in response.

[psulion22 402]

3 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

If you're going to quote me and disagree, at least reread what I wrote first. Nothing worse than being lectured for saying exactly what the lecturer posts in response.

I wasn't disagreeing, sorry if it wasn't clear.  I was agreeing, just following up for the OP and adding some more depth.

Edited March 14, 2018 by psulion22

[215BroadStBullies610 435]

38 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

If the only way to stop a shot was to be 2 feet from the origination point, then a goalie would never make a save. Once the shot is released, it travels in a straight line until it hits something else.  So to block that shot, you only have to be somewhere along that straight line.  By being further away you can cover more passing lanes, fill more space, break the puck out easier, and still be in a position to block the shot.  Plus, the geometry is such that if the shot angle changes, you actually have to move a shorter distance to get back into the lane by being further away.

 

I wouldn't want my wingers playing lower. It is a "good" idea IF the block is made successfully. The closer you are to goal, the more time you give the blue liners to pick up their heads to pass or/shot. And if that block isn't made successfully, you can be a deflector and cause more issues for your goalie.

[psulion22 402]

20 minutes ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

I wouldn't want my wingers playing lower. It is a "good" idea IF the block is made successfully. The closer you are to goal, the more time you give the blue liners to pick up their heads to pass or/shot. And if that block isn't made successfully, you can be a deflector and cause more issues for your goalie.

There's a sweet spot between being low enough to help out defensively in the rest of the zone and so low that it leaves too much space.  It's the same idea as you can't cover everything, so give them the safer space and take away the dangerous space.  Defense is about making decisions and trade-offs.  I'd say the right place for a wing in beer league is about the top of the circle, in line with the dot lane.  From out near the blue line, a shot is a pretty low percentage play (without a screen or deflection).  You definitely don't want to be over focusing a low danger play.  But, you don't want the point guy to be able to walk low enough to be in the house and a much higher percentage area, so you still need to be close enough to defend that.  At the top of the circle, the wing is low enough down to stop walk outs and curls and make breakouts easier, and close enough to the point to keep the defenseman from walking in.

Edited March 14, 2018 by psulion22

[stick9 890]

6 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

There's a sweet spot between being low enough to help out defensively in the rest of the zone and so low that it leaves too much space.  It's the same idea as you can't cover everything, so give them the safer space and take away the dangerous space.  Defense is about making decisions and trade-offs.  I'd say the right place for a wing in beer league is about the top of the circle, in line with the dot lane.  From out near the blue line, a shot is a pretty low percentage play (without a screen or deflection).  You definitely don't want to be over focusing a low danger play.  But, you don't want the point guy to be able to walk low enough to be in the house and a much higher percentage area, so you still need to be close enough to defend that.  At the top of the circle, the wing is low enough down to stop walk outs and curls and make breakouts easier, and close enough to the point to keep the defenseman from walking in.

That's kind of how I see it. When I play a bit higher up (closer to that defender) he's on me pretty quick as the puck comes up the wall. Playing a bit lower gives me (the winger) a little bit extra time to read the play.

I find, there are very few players in the leagues I play in that can really rip that shot. I think most are worried about getting burned or are trying to figure out if they should pinch or not.

[215BroadStBullies610 435]

Yea, I see it differently but I know I'm in the minority when it comes to wing play haha. When the winger comes to "help" with the attacking forward walking from the boards/low corner, that seems to create more time for the attacking team because the defending team doesn't know how to recover from the double team created by the winger's presence. 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

11 hours ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

Yea, I see it differently but I know I'm in the minority when it comes to wing play haha. When the winger comes to "help" with the attacking forward walking from the boards/low corner, that seems to create more time for the attacking team because the defending team doesn't know how to recover from the double team created by the winger's presence. 

I agree with you.  Most beer league players dont have the awareness to be in that position or the speed to get up and down.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

13 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

I agree with you.  Most beer league players dont have the awareness to be in that position or the speed to get up and down.

That was always my issue in beer league. I knew where to be, I just didn't have the speed or skating ability to get there. Of course that made people give me funny looks when I'd tell them where they should be. Can't blame them, I guess. 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

On 3/16/2018 at 11:48 AM, IPv6Freely said:

That was always my issue in beer league. I knew where to be, I just didn't have the speed or skating ability to get there. Of course that made people give me funny looks when I'd tell them where they should be. Can't blame them, I guess. 

Lunges, squats, dry land training with sprints and shuttle runs!  I expect you faster than greased lightning by SJ!!!

[IPv6Freely 2092]

1 hour ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Lunges, squats, dry land training with sprints and shuttle runs!  I expect you faster than greased lightning by SJ!!!

I should be about 80lbs lighter by then so maybe that will help.

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

3 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

I should be about 80lbs lighter by then so maybe that will help.

wow...  may I ask what you are doing?  I did Isagenix and it was amazing... gotta get back to it.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

16 minutes ago, dkmiller3356 said:

wow...  may I ask what you are doing?  I did Isagenix and it was amazing... gotta get back to it.

Doctor prescribed and supervised NutriMed for 20 weeks. 5x shakes a day, zero food. Have to do weekly classes, blood draws, blood pressure and weight check ins to make sure it stays healthy. 

This is so far (started Feb 28). Under 60lbs to go, which will be 80 lbs total less than I was at Winterfest.

 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

18 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

Doctor prescribed and supervised NutriMed for 20 weeks. 5x shakes a day, zero food. Have to do weekly classes, blood draws, blood pressure and weight check ins to make sure it stays healthy. 

This is so far (started Feb 28). Under 60lbs to go, which will be 80 lbs total less than I was at Winterfest.

 

 

Thats great!!!  Keep up the healthy path!  Once you get there you should look into Isagenix.  2 shakes a day, healthy dinner.  Cleanse/Fast twice a month for two days each.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

2 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Thats great!!!  Keep up the healthy path!  Once you get there you should look into Isagenix.  2 shakes a day, healthy dinner.  Cleanse/Fast twice a month for two days each.

I’ll look into that. I’m likely going to start with a paleo-like diet to start with and eventually move on to a less restrictive keto style diet later.

[Playmakersedge 58]

On 3/13/2018 at 11:48 AM, Santos L Halper said:

+ about a million.

We get too caught up with "systems"....and calling things like basic defensive zone coverage "systems"....and putting forth useless euphemisms such as "system hockey is winning hockey".  It's all a bunch of festering male bovine excrement - particularly in a beer league environment.

Honestly, if you don't have the time or resources to create AND EXECUTE a series of structured, progressive, scenario-based practice plans to teach a "system", then you're better off stressing general concepts.  Hopefully OP has some more experienced guys around that can first get on the same page with each other and THEN show the team things like, "hey, wings, when your side defenseman drops into the play, drop with him, but don't stray too far into the middle or we'll never be able to break the puck out."

Like the way you worded that.     One of things that's great about hockey is no situation is ever identical  . I running a blank here on the exact term been so long since used .   At around squirt level I remember coaches breaking both ends into  grids .  Using this and basics like don't turn your back to the puck. Stay moving  . This seemed help getting folks close to the place to be ..... it would be nice if beer league teams had a practice . A grid can be made with a chalk line a carpenter would use.   

[Playmakersedge 58]

On 3/13/2018 at 5:06 PM, stick9 said:

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been screamed at for not being all over that point guy. Even had a center start charging out to him off draws cuz I wasn’t getting there fast enough. Of course he had no problem leaving his man down low to bang in rebounds.

I see how far off the wings play the points in the NHL. Looks like they are more concerned with the break out than trying to block point shots.

They are giving them selves room to receive a pass .  It also can make the d chomping at the bit get drawn in and caught up (not likely in nhl)  . Other wing heads up ice ,center should have read this and be dam near the blue line.  Wing hit the other wing with pass as he is in motion,  then he hits the center now moving on a diagonal  ,then weave off the back of the center. Puck is now almost in the  o zone.  The wing that started the play is digging up the back.  Center fakes a shot drops to the wing who should have a clean shot top right.  Center is going that post for a rebound or recontrol the puck on a wide shot . The other wing is driving hard for the rebound  . If the play goes to hell the center is looping to center  either with the puck that went wide or without and it coughed out to the point.    Lots of sweeping movement crisp passes are hard to defend. 

   The set up for this all started with the wing creating room in the d zone. 

If another another player is fast enough to take off from his position and cover your man and beats you to the man ; he was right you couldn't get to him . In this case roll off formation and take his man that is probably closer to you or give him a fail safe .       Cover  for your team mates always 

[psulion22 402]

14 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

They are giving them selves room to receive a pass .  It also can make the d chomping at the bit get drawn in and caught up (not likely in nhl)  . Other wing heads up ice ,center should have read this and be dam near the blue line.  Wing hit the other wing with pass as he is in motion,  then he hits the center now moving on a diagonal  ,then weave off the back of the center. Puck is now almost in the  o zone.  The wing that started the play is digging up the back.  Center fakes a shot drops to the wing who should have a clean shot top right.  Center is going that post for a rebound or recontrol the puck on a wide shot . The other wing is driving hard for the rebound  . If the play goes to hell the center is looping to center  either with the puck that went wide or without and it coughed out to the point.    Lots of sweeping movement crisp passes are hard to defend. 

   The set up for this all started with the wing creating room in the d zone. 

If another another player is fast enough to take off from his position and cover your man and beats you to the man ; he was right you couldn't get to him . In this case roll off formation and take his man that is probably closer to you or give him a fail safe .       Cover  for your team mates always 

This isn't even remotely close to accurate as to what they are doing in the NHL.  The wings play off the points because the points are irrelevant.  They want to put all 5 guys below the circles to make sure the puck doesn't get into the prime scoring area.  They will concede the point and boards from the circles up, because they are low percentage areas.  A wing down low can still block a shot from the point by getting into the shooting lane  (notice most guys are blocking shots by the tops of the circles).  Then they play inside out, meaning they get into the lane down low, then telescope up towards the point to try to force a pass back down the boards or point to point.  When one wing telescopes, the other comes to the middle.  When the puck goes back down the boards the wing drops off.  If it goes point to point, the other wing telescopes once he finds the lane and the other wings comes down to middle.  Yes, the wings are low to help on a breakout, particularly on a low zone control where the breakout starts by going into the safe zone behind the net.  But the mid-zone outlet doesn't work much anymore.  The point guys are keying on the first guy out of the zone.  So that blueline pass isn't going to work.  Now the low guy either hits a teammate with a short lateral pass into the circle, or they hold it long enough for the center and wing to push all the way out of the zone and drive the point guys out.  Then they make a really long outlet pass to the red line, and that player either chips it back to the middle for a teammate coming with speed or they just redirect it into the zone and chase if the center kick isn't there.  But before all of that, the game is about the defenseman being able to skate and evade the forecheck, and make long seam breakouts or beat the other team's forwards out of the zone by skating.  Unlike in times past, the wing is the secondary breakout point now because the low wing gets eliminated from the rush by the backcheck..

There are no fake shots and drop passes because the puckcarrier can't get to or through the middle of the zone.  Nowadays, the center lane backchecker will eliminate the middle cut or the drop pass, and the defenseman will stay with the puckcarrier because of it.  If the defense is set, they're back to playing Gretzky hockey.  Puck enters the zone, or immediately goes, wide on the boards.  The player skates as far down the boards as they can, trying to stay near the dots.  Second forward into the zone goes hard through the middle of the ice.  If the puckcarrier can't get the edge, they curl back towards the boards to protect the puck, and make a pass back to a high trailer or the point.  It works because the defender has to make a decision and often will just drop back to their spot and conceed the boards.  Defensive structure has become so good that once the d is set up, goals don't get scored (because pucks don't get into the high scoring areas).  Most goals in the NHL are scored off the rush and transition (or on the PP) emphasizing the need for mobile, good skating, puck moving defenseman to facilitate that rush.  This is why you're seeing a more active defense where the strong side guy is attacking the puck to quickly gain possession and transition.

An overload faceoff alignment eliminates point chasing because it puts the defending wing in the shooting lane.  There's really no such thing as "not getting out to the point in time" because they are in a good defensive position without even moving.  And as I said in response to that comment earlier - you don't have to worry about getting out there in time if the center doesn't lose the draw cleanly back there.  Muck it up and wait for help- you don't win it clean, but you can't lose it clean either.

Obviously this doesn't apply to the overwhelming majority of beer leagues.

Edited March 19, 2018 by psulion22