Lack of heel lock

[Furyan 1]

Hey guys

I have a problem for years - after 2-3 months of using any skates I always get problems with heel lock

I'm not tightening upper 2 eylets to feel free my ancles, so when my skates are new and fresh I never have any problems with fixing my heel

It happens anytime with any pairs (supreme, jetspeeds, ft1 and even custom VH)

I suppose it caused by my ancles and heels are really narrow and skiny

Once i claimed to Scoot Van Horne about that problem and I was adviced that the best way to fix it - heat rear side of every skate with heatgun and press hardly to make it narrower

How do you think, is it a best way, or maybe there should be any other options?

 

Thanks in advance!

[sourfe 2]

Do it!

You can also try a forward pitch of the blade profile to be able to use one more eyelet. More hassle though if you don't like it.

[puckpilot 312]

There are a couple things you could try before going for the heat gun. 

First, you can try a different lacing method. Here's a link to a post describing a lacing pattern that pushes your heel into the pocket while allowing for lots of forward flex.

 

Another thing you can try is to add some felt padding to fill out the negative space. Here are some pictures. I used felt from a felt insole and cut it to size. 

 

 

[JC225 6]

Hey Furyan,

I understand your pain brother! I'm a taller and thinner player myself and have had nothing but issues with finding the right skates. I have the same narrow and skinny ankles with a slightly wider forefoot (right in between D and EE) and have tried several different sets of skates like yourself and have had nothing but bad results. I ended up finally trying on and going with the Bauer "Vapor 1x's" and the heel lock is the best I have ever felt. I was a little concerned because of the narrow fit profile and my slightly wider forefoot but in all honestly, they are the best fitting skates I have ever had on and I don't foresee ever leaving the Vapor line. They are very snug at first especially in the ankle but form beautifully after some little time in them. As far as working with what you currently have, I tried just about everything you can imagine. I used thicker socks (snowboarding thick), tried different lacing patterns, gel pads, baked the skates a second time and everything in between with very little if any result. I kept hearing, "you can make a heel wider, but you can't make it more narrow"! So after trying the complete list of "fix it's", I finally had enough. Wish I would have tried on the Vapor's to begin with and avoided all the time and cash I've lost trying to find the right skate.

look into a set from the Bauer Vapor line and see what you think, it worked for me.

[Furyan 1]

On 9/13/2018 at 9:06 PM, puckpilot said:

There are a couple things you could try before going for the heat gun. 

First, you can try a different lacing method. Here's a link to a post describing a lacing pattern that pushes your heel into the pocket while allowing for lots of forward flex.

 

Another thing you can try is to add some felt padding to fill out the negative space. Here are some pictures. I used felt from a felt insole and cut it to size. 

 

 

Interesting...

How did you keep these pads to skates?

With glue? What kind?

[Furyan 1]

On 9/15/2018 at 6:00 PM, JC225 said:

Hey Furyan,

I understand your pain brother! I'm a taller and thinner player myself and have had nothing but issues with finding the right skates. I have the same narrow and skinny ankles with a slightly wider forefoot (right in between D and EE) and have tried several different sets of skates like yourself and have had nothing but bad results. I ended up finally trying on and going with the Bauer "Vapor 1x's" and the heel lock is the best I have ever felt. I was a little concerned because of the narrow fit profile and my slightly wider forefoot but in all honestly, they are the best fitting skates I have ever had on and I don't foresee ever leaving the Vapor line. They are very snug at first especially in the ankle but form beautifully after some little time in them. As far as working with what you currently have, I tried just about everything you can imagine. I used thicker socks (snowboarding thick), tried different lacing patterns, gel pads, baked the skates a second time and everything in between with very little if any result. I kept hearing, "you can make a heel wider, but you can't make it more narrow"! So after trying the complete list of "fix it's", I finally had enough. Wish I would have tried on the Vapor's to begin with and avoided all the time and cash I've lost trying to find the right skate.

If you can look into a set from the Bauer Vapor line and see what I think, it worked for me.

Yepp, it is almost mine situation -)))

To be honest, I've tried a coulpe of bauer vapors in the past - it was XXX and APX 1st gen

They was really painful skates for me because of lack of depth for my feet, and they are always start to press eyelets right in to my ancle bones

But I'm ready to check it again, maybe they become little bit deeper...

Thanks!

[JC225 6]

Preevyet Furyan,

Pazhalooysta.

The new 2017 1X has quite a few changes from the past models and that may be what your are looking for to find some relief. The new off-set ankle padding and boot design really feels nice because it is much more anatomically like the structure of the foot and ankle itself. The inside of the boot is longer than the outside because the inside ankle bone sit's further forward on your foot and Bauer has engineered the boot in this shape and manner. Also I have found that the injected lacing system may give you just a bit more space in the volume department because of it's design as well. 

[Vet88 674]

I don't think they are much deeper, if you failed in an apx you will fail in a 1X, or at least I did when I tried them on and I failed in all previous vapour lines. But you could add eyelet extenders, these let me skate in apx2's and without them I would have lace bite after 5 minutes. And as you wont be lacing thru the eyelets you can add gel pads around that area to protect your ankle if required.

But by the sounds of it your boots keep opening up on you after a short while and you lose the heel lock? Without seeing you skate or looking at your gait / foot mechanics I can't say this for certain but every time I have seen this it's not a heel lock issue. My guess is you pronate and over time the pressure from the foot rolling inwards in the skate (yes, even with a perfectly fitting skate you will still pronate) causes it to open up. Does your tongue twist to the outside at all? As you have found out, regardless of what boot you have it keeps happening and will continue to do so until you take steps to correct the pronation. Or you can rebake for around 3 times to get the lock back again but then the boot starts to go soft and opens up even faster. At this stage sell them and buy a new pair.

[stick9 888]

The changes Bauer made to the boot structure make them feel a little deeper. Extending the inner quarter panel does add some depth though it may not help all that much with the pencil test. Though it depends on how badly you fail the pencil test. 

[Hills 712]

Have you tried SuperFeet?

[puckpilot 312]

8 hours ago, Furyan said:

Interesting...

How did you keep these pads to skates?

With glue? What kind?

I used sticky back Velcro from the hardware store. It's intended to stick to fabrics.

I found it useful because I can reposition the pad as needed and take it out to wash. Makes it easy to replace, too. And if I wanted I could take it all out without leaving a mark on the skate  

https://www.amazon.ca/VELCRO-Brand-Sticky-Fabrics-24-Inch/dp/B00VYCZ1WU?th=1&psc=1&source=googleshopping&locale=en-CA&tag=googcana-20&ref=pd_sl_768xbiuijl_e

[Furyan 1]

On 9/17/2018 at 3:53 PM, Vet88 said:

I don't think they are much deeper, if you failed in an apx you will fail in a 1X, or at least I did when I tried them on and I failed in all previous vapour lines. But you could add eyelet extenders, these let me skate in apx2's and without them I would have lace bite after 5 minutes. And as you wont be lacing thru the eyelets you can add gel pads around that area to protect your ankle if required.

But by the sounds of it your boots keep opening up on you after a short while and you lose the heel lock? Without seeing you skate or looking at your gait / foot mechanics I can't say this for certain but every time I have seen this it's not a heel lock issue. My guess is you pronate and over time the pressure from the foot rolling inwards in the skate (yes, even with a perfectly fitting skate you will still pronate) causes it to open up. Does your tongue twist to the outside at all? As you have found out, regardless of what boot you have it keeps happening and will continue to do so until you take steps to correct the pronation. Or you can rebake for around 3 times to get the lock back again but then the boot starts to go soft and opens up even faster. At this stage sell them and buy a new pair.

What kind of eyelet extenter do you mean? I saw sometning like you've described but not sure. And for gel pads the I have a same question, thanks! -)

Secondly, I didn't get your idea with pronation.. Could you describe it little bit more detailed? How can I correct the pronation?

Thanks in advance!

[Vet88 674]

15 hours ago, Furyan said:

What kind of eyelet extenter do you mean? I saw sometning like you've described but not sure. And for gel pads the I have a same question, thanks! -)

Secondly, I didn't get your idea with pronation.. Could you describe it little bit more detailed? How can I correct the pronation?

Thanks in advance!

I made my own out of 5mm thick leather and stainless steel eyelets. You can buy similar ones from here: http://www.greatsaves.org/skate_lace_extenders.html

They are worth the cost if you want to eliminate lace bite, this is guaranteed to work whereas lace bite pads, lacing patterns etc have a very good chance of NOT working (unless you are using a Forsberg pad). 

For gel pads I use the Elite, out of all the ones I have tried these are the best: https://www.amazon.com/Elite-Hockey-Ankle-Gel-Pad/dp/B0087TY8LI.

They last for ages, stay soft and can be reapplied repeatedly to the skin for each skate.

Pronation is when your foot rolls inwards when weight bearing. Pronation isn't a bad thing, humans have survived for 1000's of years with it and some pronation is necessary when we walk and run as part of the load absorption process. It's when we over pronate that issues arrive in activities such as running or ice skating. Lets look at an ice skating example, as you drive into the ice for a inside C cut, your foot rolls inwards in the skate because your muscles can't properly keep the foot centered over the runner. And because you have laced the boot all the way up you most likely will not even realise you are doing it.  All that is holding you up are the inside sidewalls of the skate. Eventually these sidewalls start to give way and open up because of the pressure from the foot. Now you pronate more which means more loading on the side of the boot etc etc etc

There are various tests you can do to see if you pronate. Looking at your shoes, is the outside of the heel worn more than the inside? Looking at your tongue in your skate, does it twist to the outside when you skate? Stand on one leg and look down over the middle of your knee, does it sit over the 2nd toe? Sit in a chair, feet relaxed on the floor. Now look at your inner ankle and inside of the arch (lets focus on the right foot), raise your toes up as hard as you can as if you are trying to pull them back towards your ankle. Does the arch and inner ankle move to the right? Do the wet test (google it) but note that this sometimes doesn't work if you also have flat feet. Or see a podiatrist, they will look at your stance and gait and can tell you if you pronate and how bad it is.

How do you fix pronation for ice skating? There are 4 main approaches, 1: move the holder inwards, this moves your center of balance over the holder. How far you need to move it is often a matter of experimentation until you get it right. Sadly the ice hockey world (excepting MLX skates) don't have holders that are movable. 2: Shim the outside of your skate, the foot wants to stay flat so it puts more weight onto the outside to level the skate, this places the point of contact of runner to ice more inwards under your foot. 3: Orthotics but, imho, they have limited effect on their own because there is no surface under them for the orthotic to lever off. But if you have a foot twist or some other alignment condition then orthotics can help. 4: A combination of any of the previous 3.

Or there is my approach, start dropping eyelets, train your butt off until you can eventually skate lace free. Now you have no side support from the boot, now you have to balance properly on a 1/8" wide piece of steel. Now its just you and your ankle and leg muscles holding you up. Assuming you don't have some condition that prevents this, your alignment will come right. Muscle memory will eventually take over and then you can start to lace up again. 

 

[Shogun 19]

Vet88 has a lot of knowledge! Great guy to have around on these forums. 

[Furyan 1]

4 hours ago, Vet88 said:

I made my own out of 5mm thick leather and stainless steel eyelets. You can buy similar ones from here: http://www.greatsaves.org/skate_lace_extenders.html

They are worth the cost if you want to eliminate lace bite, this is guaranteed to work whereas lace bite pads, lacing patterns etc have a very good chance of NOT working (unless you are using a Forsberg pad). 

For gel pads I use the Elite, out of all the ones I have tried these are the best: https://www.amazon.com/Elite-Hockey-Ankle-Gel-Pad/dp/B0087TY8LI.

They last for ages, stay soft and can be reapplied repeatedly to the skin for each skate.

Pronation is when your foot rolls inwards when weight bearing. Pronation isn't a bad thing, humans have survived for 1000's of years with it and some pronation is necessary when we walk and run as part of the load absorption process. It's when we over pronate that issues arrive in activities such as running or ice skating. Lets look at an ice skating example, as you drive into the ice for a inside C cut, your foot rolls inwards in the skate because your muscles can't properly keep the foot centered over the runner. And because you have laced the boot all the way up you most likely will not even realise you are doing it.  All that is holding you up are the inside sidewalls of the skate. Eventually these sidewalls start to give way and open up because of the pressure from the foot. Now you pronate more which means more loading on the side of the boot etc etc etc

There are various tests you can do to see if you pronate. Looking at your shoes, is the outside of the heel worn more than the inside? Looking at your tongue in your skate, does it twist to the outside when you skate? Stand on one leg and look down over the middle of your knee, does it sit over the 2nd toe? Sit in a chair, feet relaxed on the floor. Now look at your inner ankle and inside of the arch (lets focus on the right foot), raise your toes up as hard as you can as if you are trying to pull them back towards your ankle. Does the arch and inner ankle move to the right? Do the wet test (google it) but note that this sometimes doesn't work if you also have flat feet. Or see a podiatrist, they will look at your stance and gait and can tell you if you pronate and how bad it is.

How do you fix pronation for ice skating? There are 4 main approaches, 1: move the holder inwards, this moves your center of balance over the holder. How far you need to move it is often a matter of experimentation until you get it right. Sadly the ice hockey world (excepting MLX skates) don't have holders that are movable. 2: Shim the outside of your skate, the foot wants to stay flat so it puts more weight onto the outside to level the skate, this places the point of contact of runner to ice more inwards under your foot. 3: Orthotics but, imho, they have limited effect on their own because there is no surface under them for the orthotic to lever off. But if you have a foot twist or some other alignment condition then orthotics can help. 4: A combination of any of the previous 3.

Or there is my approach, start dropping eyelets, train your butt off until you can eventually skate lace free. Now you have no side support from the boot, now you have to balance properly on a 1/8" wide piece of steel. Now its just you and your ankle and leg muscles holding you up. Assuming you don't have some condition that prevents this, your alignment will come right. Muscle memory will eventually take over and then you can start to lace up again. 

 

Thanks, Vet88! Great explanation, very helpful!

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 9/25/2018 at 1:05 AM, Vet88 said:

I made my own out of 5mm thick leather and stainless steel eyelets. You can buy similar ones from here: http://www.greatsaves.org/skate_lace_extenders.html

They are worth the cost if you want to eliminate lace bite, this is guaranteed to work whereas lace bite pads, lacing patterns etc have a very good chance of NOT working (unless you are using a Forsberg pad). 

For gel pads I use the Elite, out of all the ones I have tried these are the best: https://www.amazon.com/Elite-Hockey-Ankle-Gel-Pad/dp/B0087TY8LI.

They last for ages, stay soft and can be reapplied repeatedly to the skin for each skate.

Pronation is when your foot rolls inwards when weight bearing. Pronation isn't a bad thing, humans have survived for 1000's of years with it and some pronation is necessary when we walk and run as part of the load absorption process. It's when we over pronate that issues arrive in activities such as running or ice skating. Lets look at an ice skating example, as you drive into the ice for a inside C cut, your foot rolls inwards in the skate because your muscles can't properly keep the foot centered over the runner. And because you have laced the boot all the way up you most likely will not even realise you are doing it.  All that is holding you up are the inside sidewalls of the skate. Eventually these sidewalls start to give way and open up because of the pressure from the foot. Now you pronate more which means more loading on the side of the boot etc etc etc

There are various tests you can do to see if you pronate. Looking at your shoes, is the outside of the heel worn more than the inside? Looking at your tongue in your skate, does it twist to the outside when you skate? Stand on one leg and look down over the middle of your knee, does it sit over the 2nd toe? Sit in a chair, feet relaxed on the floor. Now look at your inner ankle and inside of the arch (lets focus on the right foot), raise your toes up as hard as you can as if you are trying to pull them back towards your ankle. Does the arch and inner ankle move to the right? Do the wet test (google it) but note that this sometimes doesn't work if you also have flat feet. Or see a podiatrist, they will look at your stance and gait and can tell you if you pronate and how bad it is.

How do you fix pronation for ice skating? There are 4 main approaches, 1: move the holder inwards, this moves your center of balance over the holder. How far you need to move it is often a matter of experimentation until you get it right. Sadly the ice hockey world (excepting MLX skates) don't have holders that are movable. 2: Shim the outside of your skate, the foot wants to stay flat so it puts more weight onto the outside to level the skate, this places the point of contact of runner to ice more inwards under your foot. 3: Orthotics but, imho, they have limited effect on their own because there is no surface under them for the orthotic to lever off. But if you have a foot twist or some other alignment condition then orthotics can help. 4: A combination of any of the previous 3.

Or there is my approach, start dropping eyelets, train your butt off until you can eventually skate lace free. Now you have no side support from the boot, now you have to balance properly on a 1/8" wide piece of steel. Now its just you and your ankle and leg muscles holding you up. Assuming you don't have some condition that prevents this, your alignment will come right. Muscle memory will eventually take over and then you can start to lace up again. 

 

Don't forget Graf holders with screws allow some adjustment ;) 

[romdj 26]

Have you given Ezeefits a try? That's something I'd definitely look into.

http://www.ezeefitsports.com/product-p/030.htm