Closest Warrior alternative curve to W88 Zetterberg

[smcgreg 81]

Title pretty much says it all.  My son is 14 and decent player.  Varsity as freshman in HS, borderline AAA in Michigan.  He's been using a Warrior Zetterberg W88 since he started using Junior sticks.... I dunno... 6 yr ago?  The Warrior W88 is unique in that it's a lie 4.  I've thought for a while he should switch to something in a lie 5 so, can bring the puck closer to his body, but didn't want to suggest it midseason.  On a lark, he tried my W03 the other day and liked it  He tried it again today at practice and likes the lie, but doesn't like the loft.  One thought is just getting him a W03 and making him get used to it, but he likes to keep the puck on the ice with passes and doesn't want to shoot high inadvertently, which I can appreciate.  6 yrs of 4+ times/week is hard to undo.  So,.... hence the question

I've looked at the charts, but am asking for opinions.  Is there a curve closer to the W88 than the W03, but lie 5? 

Thanks in advance.

Edited December 29, 2019 by smcgreg
Misspelled title

[boo10 323]

As far as I know, the x88 patterns from all of the manufacturers are pretty much identical, including lie.  I'd say the closest curve you will find at retail, with a higher lie is the CCM P29.  It's still more open than a x88, but slightly more closed than the W03 or P92.

[psulion22 402]

48 minutes ago, smcgreg said:

Title pretty much says it all.  My son is 14 and decent player.  Varsity as freshman in HS, borderline AAA in Michigan.  He's been using a Warrior Zetterberg W88 since he started using Junior sticks.... I dunno... 6 yr ago?  The Warrior W88 is unique in that it's a lie 4.  I've thought for a while he should switch to something in a lie 5 so, can bring the puck closer to his body, but didn't want to suggest it midseason.  On a lark, he tried my W03 the other day and liked it  He tried it again today at practice and likes the lie, but doesn't like the loft.  One thought is just getting him a W03 and making him get used to it, but he likes to keep the puck on the ice with passes and doesn't want to shoot high inadvertently, which I can appreciate.  6 yrs of 4+ times/week is hard to undo.  So,.... hence the question

I've looked at the charts, but am asking for opinions.  Is there a curve closer to the W88 than the W03, but lie 5? 

Thanks in advance.

Warrior lists their lie as one lower than the other manufacturers.  So the W88 is really a "lie 5".  Bauer lists their P88 as a lie 6.  It's not, it's a lie 5.  It's a lower lie than the lie 6 P92, lie 5.5 P10, and about the same as the lie 5 P28, PM9, and CCM's P30.  In reality, the W88 is a clone of the other P88 variants, with slight differences.

Warrior's W03 is a Bauer P92/CCM P29 variant, which are both lie 6.  Again, Warrior's lie numbering system comes in to play.

With manufacturers reducing the number of curves available at retail, your choices are limited without going custom.  Bauer and CCM are only going to give you 3 or 4 choices, with the P92/P29/W03 being the highest lie and the only one that high.  P88/W88 and P28/W28 are both similar and lower.  With Bauer, a P14 *might* work.  It's a slightly higher lie than the P88, with less twist than the P92.  The issue with it is that it's a very short blade which may not work for many players.  True offers more choices if you can someone that carries them. 

[flip12 735]

Base’s options allow a bit more flexibility in chosing patters. They have the Iginla in 4, 5, and 6 lies.

Maybe get him to give the loft on the W03 more time. Controlling shot height when going from a little to a considerable degree of loft can be tricky at first, but with some conscious practice, initial awkwardness can be overcome. How are his saucer passes? A little loft can go a long way to getting good saucer passes off quickly. I know you said he likes to keep the puck on the ice for passes, but it’s good to be confident to throw a saucer when the situation arises.

[start_today 781]

With the rockers on both blades, i feel like the lies on both of those are not as different as reading about them might imply. 

Cutting the p88 shorter would help playing closer to the body. Or, just find stick handling drills to practice that help with puck control closer to the body. 

[smcgreg 81]

4 hours ago, psulion22 said:

Warrior lists their lie as one lower than the other manufacturers.  So the W88 is really a "lie 5".  Bauer lists their P88 as a lie 6.  It's not, it's a lie 5.  It's a lower lie than the lie 6 P92, lie 5.5 P10, and about the same as the lie 5 P28, PM9, and CCM's P30.  In reality, the W88 is a clone of the other P88 variants, with slight differences.

Warrior's W03 is a Bauer P92/CCM P29 variant, which are both lie 6.  Again, Warrior's lie numbering system comes in to play.

With manufacturers reducing the number of curves available at retail, your choices are limited without going custom.  Bauer and CCM are only going to give you 3 or 4 choices, with the P92/P29/W03 being the highest lie and the only one that high.  P88/W88 and P28/W28 are both similar and lower.  With Bauer, a P14 *might* work.  It's a slightly higher lie than the P88, with less twist than the P92.  The issue with it is that it's a very short blade which may not work for many players.  True offers more choices if you can someone that carries them. 

Yeah, I know Warrior lie numbers are different than others, but the two sticks relative to each other is the issue.  That being said, the W88 is the lowest lie Warrior I am aware of and with not much rocker, I've thought for a while he would be better off with a higher lie stick.  Given it's the middle of the season, trying to keep the variables in the change minimal.  We are both very familiar with Warrior and in the past he hasn't liked Bauer.  So, want to stick with Warrrior until at least summer. 

Thanks of the info. 

[smcgreg 81]

1 hour ago, flip12 said:

Base’s options allow a bit more flexibility in chosing patters. They have the Iginla in 4, 5, and 6 lies.

Maybe get him to give the loft on the W03 more time. Controlling shot height when going from a little to a considerable degree of loft can be tricky at first, but with some conscious practice, initial awkwardness can be overcome. How are his saucer passes? A little loft can go a long way to getting good saucer passes off quickly. I know you said he likes to keep the puck on the ice for passes, but it’s good to be confident to throw a saucer when the situation arises.

Like I said above, want to stay with warrior for the time being.  He like the alpha and hasn't liked other stick manufactures when he tried them in the past. 

He's good at sauce.  He's good at hitting the crossbar on wrist shots, so, lifting the puck is not an issue. Like I said, borderline AAA in Michigan at 15U.  I've taught him over the years to keep the puck on the ice when he can.  That was what was bothering him. 

[smcgreg 81]

1 hour ago, start_today said:

With the rockers on both blades, i feel like the lies on both of those are not as different as reading about them might imply. 

Cutting the p88 shorter would help playing closer to the body. Or, just find stick handling drills to practice that help with puck control closer to the body. 

Having used both, I would beg to differ.  To me, much less rocker on W88.  He commented the same. 

He plays D.  Cutting shorter is not an option and I really don't think that makes much difference playing close to the body.  He's been doing stick handling drills for 10 years, not gonna change much in a couple weeks/ month.

Thanks for the feedback though.

Edited December 29, 2019 by smcgreg

[colins 246]

5 hours ago, psulion22 said:

Warrior lists their lie as one lower than the other manufacturers.  So the W88 is really a "lie 5".  Bauer lists their P88 as a lie 6.  It's not, it's a lie 5.  It's a lower lie than the lie 6 P92, lie 5.5 P10, and about the same as the lie 5 P28, PM9, and CCM's P30.  In reality, the W88 is a clone of the other P88 variants, with slight differences.

Warrior's W03 is a Bauer P92/CCM P29 variant, which are both lie 6.  Again, Warrior's lie numbering system comes in to play.

With manufacturers reducing the number of curves available at retail, your choices are limited without going custom.  Bauer and CCM are only going to give you 3 or 4 choices, with the P92/P29/W03 being the highest lie and the only one that high.  P88/W88 and P28/W28 are both similar and lower.  With Bauer, a P14 *might* work.  It's a slightly higher lie than the P88, with less twist than the P92.  The issue with it is that it's a very short blade which may not work for many players.  True offers more choices if you can someone that carries them. 

 

You could pretty much end the thread here, psulion22 nails it all around.

I would just add:

- Anyone that likes the P88 and switches to the higher lie P92/W03/P29 probably needs to go an inch or two shorter in stick length to compensate. I used P88 for years and hated the P92 until I realized I needed to play with a P92 a couple inches shorter. The adjustment was needed to give me the right amount of blade I wanted on the ice and to shoot with the puck closer to my body.

- CCM P19 is not common at retail anymore but I see it still in team and pro stock sticks - I always found it a great middle ground between the P88 and P92 for someone wanting to transition. It's just a great curve in it's own right.

- Bauer's retail P14 (at least on the sr 77 flex 1X's I had) is not only short, but fairly narrow and the toe is tapered a bit too. Overall a small blade. I have a couple prostock NCAA Pat Curry 75 Flex 1S that are unlabelled but look to be a max height P14 variant, and while it's still shorter than a P92 blade, I find it great compared to the retail P14 on the 1X.

To the OP - at retail the options are indeed limited. P88, P92 and P28 are pretty much the only 3 curves you can find amongst the big guys in volume across their whole lineup of sticks these days.

If you son loves the P88 and is effective with it, I wouldn't necessarily pursue a change that he's not looking for himself. The P88 is not real special for anything, but neither does it have any big downsides. It's a great all around curve for an all around type player, which at age 14 is probably what most kids are going for. Stickhandling, backhand, passing, all excellent with that curve, shooting off the toe is the one area isn't not 'great' for. If he's a playmaker as much as he's a goal scorer, I'd let him stay with it.

Out of curiosity what kind of skater is he? Does he get fairly low with a good hip hinge / 'knee bend'? I find those kids are the ones that seem to like the low lie of the P88. The more upright skaters tend to gravitate more to the P92 style lie.

 

 

[colins 246]

1 hour ago, smcgreg said:

Having used both, I would beg to differ.  To me, much less rocker on W88.  He commented the same. 

He plays D.  Cutting shorter is not an option and I really don't think that makes much difference playing close to the body.  He's been doing stick handling drills for 10 years, not gonna change much in a couple weeks/ month.

Thanks for the feedback though.

 

Oh - he's a D man. Have you looked at the W02? Heel curve, square toe, pretty much a specialty curve specifically for D men.

[smcgreg 81]

2 hours ago, colins said:

 

To the OP - at retail the options are indeed limited. P88, P92 and P28 are pretty much the only 3 curves you can find amongst the big guys in volume across their whole lineup of sticks these days.

If you son loves the P88 and is effective with it, I wouldn't necessarily pursue a change that he's not looking for himself. The P88 is not real special for anything, but neither does it have any big downsides. It's a great all around curve for an all around type player, which at age 14 is probably what most kids are going for. Stickhandling, backhand, passing, all excellent with that curve, shooting off the toe is the one area isn't not 'great' for. If he's a playmaker as much as he's a goal scorer, I'd let him stay with it.

Out of curiosity what kind of skater is he? Does he get fairly low with a good hip hinge / 'knee bend'? I find those kids are the ones that seem to like the low lie of the P88. The more upright skaters tend to gravitate more to the P92 style lie.

 

 

Regarding the bold, so, my observations have been for a while that he should probably switch, but never said anything so as not to get into his head.  The ironic backstory is that we went to a dropin the other day and he forgot his sticks (yes, he's 14), so, had to use mine.  He immediately commented as to how the stickhandling was better and backhand shot was better.  Those were his immediate observations without prompting, he offered them. His shot was less accurate, but that's understandable given he's used the same curve pretty much his whole playing career other than when he was learning to skate and play and using baby sticks. 

Anyway, this was driven by that one day and then a couple dropins and a practice today.  Good for stickhandling, backhand shots.  Shot not as accurate and he doesn't like the loft on passes and shots.  I am confident his shot will adjust from an accuracy standpoint and can probably adjust to the loft with some time.  It will definitely be in his head if he transitions during the season, so, trying to minimize it. Still, his ability to take shots on the ice as a D man is a plus and I'm a huge advocate of passes on the ice unless needing to get through traffic.  Sauce for the sake of sauce is not desirable.  Also, aside from the stickhandling, I am fairly confident with time that all his shots will be better when the puck is closer to his body and he can load the stick more effectively due to the acute angle. 

As far as the Lidstrom curve (at least that's what it used to be called), no, he's been Zetterberg as long as he's had a real stick.  I know it's a D specific curve, but he's fine with a normal curve and will likely be ok with W03/P92 with some adaptation time.

So, thanks for the feedback.  Will likely have to ease into a W03, but easing into a different curve is never going to be as effective as just jumping in with both feet. 

[colins 246]

18 minutes ago, smcgreg said:

Regarding the bold, so, my observations have been for a while that he should probably switch, but never said anything so as not to get into his head.  The ironic backstory is that we went to a dropin the other day and he forgot his sticks (yes, he's 14), so, had to use mine.  He immediately commented as to how the stickhandling was better and backhand shot was better.  Those were his immediate observations without prompting, he offered them. His shot was less accurate, but that's understandable given he's used the same curve pretty much his whole playing career other than when he was learning to skate and play and using baby sticks. 

Anyway, this was driven by that one day and then a couple dropins and a practice today.  Good for stickhandling, backhand shots.  Shot not as accurate and he doesn't like the loft on passes and shots.  I am confident his shot will adjust from an accuracy standpoint and can probably adjust to the loft with some time.  It will definitely be in his head if he transitions during the season, so, trying to minimize it. Still, his ability to take shots on the ice as a D man is a plus and I'm a huge advocate of passes on the ice unless needing to get through traffic.  Sauce for the sake of sauce is not desirable.  Also, aside from the stickhandling, I am fairly confident with time that all his shots will be better when the puck is closer to his body and he can load the stick more effectively due to the acute angle. 

As far as the Lidstrom curve (at least that's what it used to be called), no, he's been Zetterberg as long as he's had a real stick.  I know it's a D specific curve, but he's fine with a normal curve and will likely be ok with W03/P92 with some adaptation time.

So, thanks for the feedback.  Will likely have to ease into a W03, but easing into a different curve is never going to be as effective as just jumping in with both feet. 

 

Are your sticks longer, shorter or the same length as his? Higher or lower flex?

Assuming the same length and flex, I'd expect most players to not find a W03/P92 better than a P88/W88 for backhand shots.

The openness of the W03 towards the toe would typically impact backhand shots negatively vs. the closed nature of the P88 curve.

Crosby has one of the best back hand shots in the NHL, using a pretty neutral closed curve, closer to a PM9 than any of the above.

Not to focus on the backhands as I'm sure for a D man that's one of the lesser used shots he'll care about - but it just made me think maybe there's other variables at play if he somehow found your stick with a W03 better than his W88 for backhanders.

 

 

 

[smcgreg 81]

17 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Are your sticks longer, shorter or the same length as his? Higher or lower flex?

Assuming the same length and flex, I'd expect most players to not find a W03/P92 better than a P88/W88 for backhand shots.

The openness of the W03 towards the toe would typically impact backhand shots negatively vs. the closed nature of the P88 curve.

Crosby has one of the best back hand shots in the NHL, using a pretty neutral closed curve, closer to a PM9 than any of the above.

Not to focus on the backhands as I'm sure for a D man that's one of the lesser used shots he'll care about - but it just made me think maybe there's other variables at play if he somehow found your stick with a W03 better than his W88 for backhanders.

 

 

 

Same length and flex.  Right now, we wear the same size Makos and same length intermediate stick... go figure. 

Funny, I thought the same thing about the backhand, because it didn't make a sense to me.  What I came up with was the rocker.  To me, the rocker has more curve on it on the 03 vs 88.  My thought was between the lie and rocker, he's able to take the backhand closer to his body allowing him to get under it more.  Other than that I wasn't sure,  You're right, for a D, not the most important, but getting out of trouble sometimes requires the same "shot" off the boards.  As a puck moving D, he does jump in the offense when he's playing with his own age.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

 

[flip12 735]

What about the P28?

[smcgreg 81]

9 hours ago, flip12 said:

What about the P28?

Haven't used it.  Looking at it, does look a bit like a tweener, but more of a toe curve right?  Not sure that's ideal for defenseman. 

[flip12 735]

14 minutes ago, smcgreg said:

Haven't used it.  Looking at it, does look a bit like a tweener, but more of a toe curve right?  Not sure that's ideal for defenseman. 

It depends on the person. Some of the best puck moving D in the NHL use it: Karlsson, Doughty, Ekman-Larsson, Letang. It’s an evolution of the Drury, with a functional remnant of its heel wedge intact. The added pocket at the toe is a little deeper, though, which steals the attention.

I’ve never played a P88, so I could be mistaken, but my impression is its pocket is focused closer to the toe, which is why I could see the P28 working for someone coming from P88.

My recollection has the Warrior variant in the tamer camp, where Easton’s E28 was less polished version of Kamil Kreps’ pro curve. Warrior, CCM and Bauer look to have smoothed out the Easton curve’s kinks a bit when fashioning theirs for retail production. True’s is a bit more rockered from the heel to mid-section of the blade with the heel and toe curves more unified than the others’ P28s. I don’t notice a drastic shift in how it plays from the E28 to the TC4, though. Since your son enjoys Warrior though, all of the P28 nuance is less important.

As for playing the puck in closer to the body, Karlsson and Ekman-Larsson seem to use the P28 (or perhaps the Fisher Pro variant) at a considerably long length. The toe rocker might help compared to the P88 for handling the puck in tight.

I don’t know where this defense should use this kind of blade, forwards that. Brian Rafalski’s blade looked like a mirror of Valeri Kharlamovs, a PM9 with a dental hook at the toe. If it weren’t for size descrimination delaying Rafslski’s NHL debut by a few years, he’d be in the Hall of Fame.

Personally, I’ve slowly disarmed my need for a toe hook on my blade to play my best as I’ve become familiar with the other variables at play in puck handling, yet, I still prefer a toe biased pocket. It just seems to rest more naturally within my innate puck feel comfort zone.

[psulion22 402]

P28 requires a little more technical skill when shooting than the P88.  But it is more closed than a P92/W03 despite how it would seem.  So you can get off low shots, especially slappers, and passes if you release the puck before the toe pocket.  The twist on a W03 starts so much closer to the heel that it's tough to keep things down, but sauce is easy.  It's about the same lie as a P88, so it won't help your kid bring the puck closer to his body.  My problem with the P28 as a defenseman is the toe is pretty tapered, and there's a good rocker to it.  On loose or contested pucks, board battles, and things like poke checks or blade mirroring, I found that if my hands weren't exactly correct, the puck would slide under the toe and I wouldn't get clean contact or sometimes miss completely.  But stickhandling, puck control, and shots/passes using wrist flicks were fantastic.  Even as a defenseman, you're using those skills more often than the big clapper, so sometimes it does make sense to default to improving the skill you use 80% of the time rather than the one you use 20%.  The W28 may be a good compromise because it will give him some gains in what you want, without having to alter his hand positioning or natural balance.

Something to think about.  A defenseman plays most of his game with the puck at a distance, both offensively and defensively.  I get wanting your kid to bring the puck closer because it's better for stickhandling and shooting.  But, imo, the ability to play the puck at a distance effectively is more important than those other two things, especially on the defensive side.  If you raise the lie of the sitck while keeping it the same length, you'll raise the toe off the ice at full extension.  That's a liability, especially if you're tapering the toe more too.  It's like you're creating a weakness in the 80% to try to improve the 20%.  I prefer the certainty of a less rockered and rounded blade that I can keep flat at my full reach, even if it means I lose something off my shot and puck handling.

Edited December 30, 2019 by psulion22

[smcgreg 81]

2 hours ago, psulion22 said:

P28 requires a little more technical skill when shooting than the P88.  But it is more closed than a P92/W03 despite how it would seem.  So you can get off low shots, especially slappers, and passes if you release the puck before the toe pocket.  The twist on a W03 starts so much closer to the heel that it's tough to keep things down, but sauce is easy.  It's about the same lie as a P88, so it won't help your kid bring the puck closer to his body.  My problem with the P28 as a defenseman is the toe is pretty tapered, and there's a good rocker to it.  On loose or contested pucks, board battles, and things like poke checks or blade mirroring, I found that if my hands weren't exactly correct, the puck would slide under the toe and I wouldn't get clean contact or sometimes miss completely.  But stickhandling, puck control, and shots/passes using wrist flicks were fantastic.  Even as a defenseman, you're using those skills more often than the big clapper, so sometimes it does make sense to default to improving the skill you use 80% of the time rather than the one you use 20%.  The W28 may be a good compromise because it will give him some gains in what you want, without having to alter his hand positioning or natural balance.

Something to think about.  A defenseman plays most of his game with the puck at a distance, both offensively and defensively.  I get wanting your kid to bring the puck closer because it's better for stickhandling and shooting.  But, imo, the ability to play the puck at a distance effectively is more important than those other two things, especially on the defensive side.  If you raise the lie of the sitck while keeping it the same length, you'll raise the toe off the ice at full extension.  That's a liability, especially if you're tapering the toe more too.  It's like you're creating a weakness in the 80% to try to improve the 20%.  I prefer the certainty of a less rockered and rounded blade that I can keep flat at my full reach, even if it means I lose something off my shot and puck handling.

Thanks, lots of good info there.  RE: the last paragraph, I get what you're saying, but in his case, I think the tradeoff would be beneficial.  I can wax poetic about it ad nauseum, but don't want to take up too much bandwith here.  Not sure what we'll do, may get a low end P28 to try in compairson to my 03 and see what he things and go from there.  Since I use the 03 regularly, I think he can adjust with a bit of time and be just fine, probably better off in the long run.

Thanks again for the feedback. 

[ntwusc 62]

If he likes 75-80 flex, have him try a pro stock Kessel curve. The toe is a little more open than a W88 and the lie is a little lower than a W88. PSH currently has the Alpha DX in this curve. I think Tyler Bozak also uses the same curve but with a higher lie and typically in 90-100 flex.