Bladetech Initial Thoughts

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

I had met the Bladetech team at the PHATS/SPHEM show in Orlando a couple of years ago.  At the time, they had been talking to a couple of equipment managers so we exchanged quick pleasantries and business cards.  Neither one of us followed up, until a few weeks ago when Jeff reached out to me.  We talked over the phone and he decided to send me down a couple of sets to test:

Bladetech has a patent on their "flexible" blades.  The front third of the steel has a different shape than stock steel, which leaves a gap between the holder and the steel.  Here's Bladetech sitting on top of a LS4.

'

Note that the toe is lower, not just the scallop before the fin:

The premise behind this is that the steel will compress into the holder during push off then releases at the end of the stride.  Bladetech's claim is that it will increase acceleration as well as alleviates pressure on leg joints due to the fact that it can absorb impacts better than stock steel.

Over this weekend I balanced, profiled and sharpened one of the sets.  The steel was extremely consistent in terms of its shape out of the box, as well as blade thickness.  

It sharpened well and left a nice finish.  The next step for me is to find a rink to test these out.  For now, I'll try to answer any questions you may have, and @Jeff Azzolin Bladetech will also be monitoring this thread.  Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to review these, and thanks for the MSH logo - that was a nice touch!

[Hills 712]

Does the unique design get them away from the Bauer patent for the Edge holder?

Do you notice the compression when standing or walking with them?

Not that you have the Black Armor version, but does that act the same way all the Black steel does? Does it help on poor ice surfaces like the mirror coating does as well?

[Miller55 333]

This sounds like sprungs for ice. Do they need a specific holder? Does it increase the stress load on the holders and make for potentially damaging the holders or increasing the wear and tear on them and decreasing durability? Sounds like a great idea.

[Giltis 116]

I've not used it personally, but a guy that I played with had a pair. He said it was quite good for ODRs where the ice is chunky and uneven at times.

I'm actually extremely curious to try it one day.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Giltis

[BenBreeg 493]

15 hours ago, Hills said:

Does the unique design get them away from the Bauer patent for the Edge holder?

Do you notice the compression when standing or walking with them?

Not that you have the Black Armor version, but does that act the same way all the Black steel does? Does it help on poor ice surfaces like the mirror coating does as well?

Depends on what Bauer patented, I have to think the interface is a key component, and there would be no way around that.

The premise sounds iffy to me, the idea of being able to compress steel longitudinally without it torquing sounds difficult.  Secondly, by the time it would actually "release", it seems you would be completing your stride/toe flick and just beginning the recovery portion.  Shouldn't be too hard to calculate exactly how much potential energy would be stored by this compression and also measure how much is actually returned to the skater.  It can't create energy, only store it, so for a given stride it seems like it could either actually absorb the energy and release it once the toe is lifted (wasting energy and decreasing acceleration) or actually it does release into the ice and to me for the same stride would return the same amount of energy as a non-compressed blade, just with a changed force curve.

Need to see the evidence.

[Giltis 116]

17 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

Need to see the evidence.

I do remember seeing a paper on it for the first iteration (the one that had a traditional spring in the holder), and I think the 2nd one has some ties to Waterloo U as well.

I first heard about them in a News segment where the inventor (?) had a former Habs player try it out and time it (found the segment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vNlEFgzMDU). 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Giltis

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

17 hours ago, Hills said:

Does the unique design get them away from the Bauer patent for the Edge holder?

Do you notice the compression when standing or walking with them?

Not that you have the Black Armor version, but does that act the same way all the Black steel does? Does it help on poor ice surfaces like the mirror coating does as well?

I'll let them answer that one.

I haven't mounted them on a pair of skates yet as I'm waiting on a pair to be sent.  However, I attached it a loose LS Edge holder and you can compress it with your hand.

I haven't seen the Black Armour but it sounds like DLC.

[Westside 232]

I wrote this on another forum a while back when people were inquiring about Bladetech:  

“Bladetech’s innovation is a notch carved out of the steel near the front part of the holder. It's supposed to allow the steel to move slightly allowing it to 'spring' in the holder, giving you a bit more burst of speed. 

I was given a pair of steel last year by my pro shop after a mishap. I could not tell any difference from my normal Step Steel in terms of performance, but only used them for 4-6 games before switching back to Step. I still have concern about unnecessary wear to the holder with the steel moving and not being secure, but have been assured on numerous occasions that this is not a concern. I didn't not like the steel while I used it, but am comfortable with Step so that's what I use. The BT is in backup rotation if I need an emergency set of steel. While their black/colored steel is a matte finish, not mirrored, I didn't notice any additional snow buildup on the blades vs mirrored finish Step Black. 

The problem with BT has been no information out there about the product. There's a bit on their website, but almost no real world reviews. Makes it difficult for anyone to learn more about them. I'm not a youtuber or gear reviewer, or anything like that. With Step now being exclusive to CCM, if you can't find Step Steel, BT is about on par with Byonic steel in terms of pricing and less expensive than Tydan“

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

20 hours ago, Hills said:

Does the unique design get them away from the Bauer patent for the Edge holder?

Do you notice the compression when standing or walking with them?

Not that you have the Black Armor version, but does that act the same way all the Black steel does? Does it help on poor ice surfaces like the mirror coating does as well?

Hey Hills,

Bauer has some patents, which yes, have caused some havoc for other steel companies who focus on quality and do have have geometrical or purposeful differences than the Bauer blade. Bladetech on the other hand owns 2 published patents, one in the USA and one in Canada which grant us rights for what we call "flex-force" technology, and our blade differences are geometrically different and purposeful, or else we would not have gotten our own patents.

More likely you would feel a difference standing/walking on them, but that feeling is slightly dampened once you are on the ice skating, or at least, is the feedback subjectively provided.  However, obviously pro players would be extremely in tune with their equipment and can still feel the effects. The amount varies from player to player.

The black steel listed right now does act in a similar fashion as any (or most) black steel, in that it improves edge retention and glide. Right now its a matte finish, however, we are launching a new mirror-black version as well, its out for our pro teams, starting to prepare for retail now.

Hope that helps shed some light! Cheers 🙂

Edited July 27, 2020 by Jeff Azzolin Bladetech

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

18 hours ago, Miller55 said:

This sounds like sprungs for ice. Do they need a specific holder? Does it increase the stress load on the holders and make for potentially damaging the holders or increasing the wear and tear on them and decreasing durability? Sounds like a great idea.

Hello Miller55,

The blades themselves act as stiff leaf springs, similar to a suspension in a vehicle. No they do not need a specific holder. You simply buy "SB4" blades for the "SB4" holder,  "Epro" style blades for the "Epro" holder...etc...etc for all the different styles and shapes of holders/blades out there. In terms of blade/holder damage, no issues here. We have done lots of lab testing before even launching to make sure this is a non-issue via typical high volume cyclic loading tests.  To add further comfort, we have had a wide range of players on our steel, be it from your average 5 year old to your NHL player and everything in between and havent had any issues. It does not add "stress load" to the holders, as all forces are transferred through steel, to holders, to boots, to your body anyways, so the same weight/force you apply with normal blades is the same as ours. Only difference is that, the flex force in our blades actually reduces stress shock from your knees and joints by reducing the "shock" or impact initial load via the spring technology. Its meant for performance and health. Bug me if you have any other questions, happy to help 🙂 Cheers!

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

4 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

Depends on what Bauer patented, I have to think the interface is a key component, and there would be no way around that.

The premise sounds iffy to me, the idea of being able to compress steel longitudinally without it torquing sounds difficult.  Secondly, by the time it would actually "release", it seems you would be completing your stride/toe flick and just beginning the recovery portion.  Shouldn't be too hard to calculate exactly how much potential energy would be stored by this compression and also measure how much is actually returned to the skater.  It can't create energy, only store it, so for a given stride it seems like it could either actually absorb the energy and release it once the toe is lifted (wasting energy and decreasing acceleration) or actually it does release into the ice and to me for the same stride would return the same amount of energy as a non-compressed blade, just with a changed force curve.

Need to see the evidence.

Hello BenBreeg,

The spring action is "absorbing" energy on the initial plant/strike/impact of the blade into the ice, and then "releasing" the potential energy at the end of the stride. The difference being that, upon foot strike, the foots/shin is much more "vertical" and a lot of vertical impact energy is lost in the joints. Instead, the blade can absorb a portion of this. Later in the stride, at the final toe pushoff, yes, the blade then releases the stored energy. The difference here is that, on the final pushoff, your foot/shin is in a much more horizontal orientation, and the energy is transmitted back along the same vector. So in summary, initially absorbing vertical wasted energy, to give you more horizontal useful energy on the pushoff. And yes, of course, the timing and shape of the force curve would be different. Cheers!

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

3 hours ago, Giltis said:

I do remember seeing a paper on it for the first iteration (the one that had a traditional spring in the holder), and I think the 2nd one has some ties to Waterloo U as well.

I first heard about them in a News segment where the inventor (?) had a former Habs player try it out and time it (found the segment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vNlEFgzMDU). 

Thanks for posting the youtube video Giltis! The video outlines a simple example of testing techniques and technology used to prove out the model. 🙂
Cheers!

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

1 hour ago, Westside said:

I wrote this on another forum a while back when people were inquiring about Bladetech:  

“Bladetech’s innovation is a notch carved out of the steel near the front part of the holder. It's supposed to allow the steel to move slightly allowing it to 'spring' in the holder, giving you a bit more burst of speed. 

I was given a pair of steel last year by my pro shop after a mishap. I could not tell any difference from my normal Step Steel in terms of performance, but only used them for 4-6 games before switching back to Step. I still have concern about unnecessary wear to the holder with the steel moving and not being secure, but have been assured on numerous occasions that this is not a concern. I didn't not like the steel while I used it, but am comfortable with Step so that's what I use. The BT is in backup rotation if I need an emergency set of steel. While their black/colored steel is a matte finish, not mirrored, I didn't notice any additional snow buildup on the blades vs mirrored finish Step Black. 

The problem with BT has been no information out there about the product. There's a bit on their website, but almost no real world reviews. Makes it difficult for anyone to learn more about them. I'm not a youtuber or gear reviewer, or anything like that. With Step now being exclusive to CCM, if you can't find Step Steel, BT is about on par with Byonic steel in terms of pricing and less expensive than Tydan“

Thanks for the feedback Westside, always appreciate the leanings to help improve. I can definitely re-look into the website and touching it up to add more information there. One comment I can make is that.... no pro players uses something they dont like... and we have a good number on our product for several years - but certainly we can try and publish their actual reviews they've provided or give you more info - duly noted. Also - which forum, perhaps I can be more present there to shed some light on inquiries. Cheers!

Edited July 27, 2020 by Jeff Azzolin Bladetech

[BenBreeg 493]

7 minutes ago, Jeff Azzolin Bladetech said:

Hello BenBreeg,

The spring action is "absorbing" energy on the initial plant/strike/impact of the blade into the ice, and then "releasing" the potential energy at the end of the stride. The difference being that, upon foot strike, the foots/shin is much more "vertical" and a lot of vertical impact energy is lost in the joints. Instead, the blade can absorb a portion of this. Later in the stride, at the final toe pushoff, yes, the blade then releases the stored energy. The difference here is that, on the final pushoff, your foot/shin is in a much more horizontal orientation, and the energy is transmitted back along the same vector. So in summary, initially absorbing vertical wasted energy, to give you more horizontal useful energy on the pushoff. And yes, of course, the timing and shape of the force curve would be different. Cheers!

Cool, so basically redirecting the vector.

So I'm a nerd and not trying to challenge anything, just find the science interesting.  My next question would be: Upon recovery and transitioning to the "stride" when the loading is applied to the blade, isn't more of the force directed to the middle of the blade and transfers to the toe as the stride is executed?  If so, where is the loading taking place?  I saw the video and that you have the pressure monitor (used to use similar for designing wearable medical devices) which I would suppose help understand how those forces are applied throughout the stride.

Lastly, what is the magnitude of the force being redirected?  Even if the above argument proves to be true, the blade 1) has to store and redirect enough energy to make a difference 2) would have to release it before the skate lifted which could then be dependent on stride mechanics to get the most out of this.

Is the 5% increase in velocity proven out over a large sample set?

[VegasHockey 1280]

15 minutes ago, Jeff Azzolin Bladetech said:

Hello BenBreeg,

The spring action is "absorbing" energy on the initial plant/strike/impact of the blade into the ice, and then "releasing" the potential energy at the end of the stride. The difference being that, upon foot strike, the foots/shin is much more "vertical" and a lot of vertical impact energy is lost in the joints. Instead, the blade can absorb a portion of this. Later in the stride, at the final toe pushoff, yes, the blade then releases the stored energy. The difference here is that, on the final pushoff, your foot/shin is in a much more horizontal orientation, and the energy is transmitted back along the same vector. So in summary, initially absorbing vertical wasted energy, to give you more horizontal useful energy on the pushoff. And yes, of course, the timing and shape of the force curve would be different. Cheers!

My concern would be with so much movement the steel may eventually warp/bend under torque. I have seen standard steel bend over time so how does BT prevent the steel from becoming deformed? 

[Miller55 333]

1 hour ago, Jeff Azzolin Bladetech said:

Hello Miller55,

The blades themselves act as stiff leaf springs, similar to a suspension in a vehicle. No they do not need a specific holder. You simply buy "SB4" blades for the "SB4" holder,  "Epro" style blades for the "Epro" holder...etc...etc for all the different styles and shapes of holders/blades out there. In terms of blade/holder damage, no issues here. We have done lots of lab testing before even launching to make sure this is a non-issue via typical high volume cyclic loading tests.  To add further comfort, we have had a wide range of players on our steel, be it from your average 5 year old to your NHL player and everything in between and havent had any issues. It does not add "stress load" to the holders, as all forces are transferred through steel, to holders, to boots, to your body anyways, so the same weight/force you apply with normal blades is the same as ours. Only difference is that, the flex force in our blades actually reduces stress shock from your knees and joints by reducing the "shock" or impact initial load via the spring technology. Its meant for performance and health. Bug me if you have any other questions, happy to help 🙂 Cheers!

Thanks for clarifying Jeff. What exactly gives that spring action? In the video it shows that there's a spring inside the holder, but it seems that you're not doing that anymore. What has taken it's place? Is it just a cutout that allows the runner to move? What is forcing it to "unload" following the push off? Trying to understand how this works, as it reminds me very much if the sprungs roller chassis, which I love and can definitely attest to the suspension taking some of the wear and tear off of the knees. My concern is more about, in a suspension system, that energy is absorbed in the springs and then released. In sprung roller chassis, there is a spring that stores and releases the energy. In the BT steel, if there is no spring, where is the energy stored before it is released? In a standard holder it's stored in your knees and your body in general. Trying to understand how it works. Thanks again and best of luck

Edit: I see now that you said the blade itself and as a stiff leaf spring. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Miller55

[BenBreeg 493]

36 minutes ago, Miller55 said:

Thanks for clarifying Jeff. What exactly gives that spring action? In the video it shows that there's a spring inside the holder, but it seems that you're not doing that anymore. What has taken it's place? Is it just a cutout that allows the runner to move? What is forcing it to "unload" following the push off? Trying to understand how this works, as it reminds me very much if the sprungs roller chassis, which I love and can definitely attest to the suspension taking some of the wear and tear off of the knees. My concern is more about, in a suspension system, that energy is absorbed in the springs and then released. In sprung roller chassis, there is a spring that stores and releases the energy. In the BT steel, if there is no spring, where is the energy stored before it is released? In a standard holder it's stored in your knees and your body in general. Trying to understand how it works. Thanks again and best of luck

The blade is the spring, the front is unsupported and flexes up (correct me if I got this wrong).

[Giltis 116]

38 minutes ago, Miller55 said:

[...] What exactly gives that spring action? [...]

He alluded to leaf spring suspension, which is something that old cars used to use due to its longevity and simplicity, if you look up Leaf Springs you will see some examples of how it looks like just a bunch of flat sheets stacked on top of one another. 

Basically the simple material science of how a metal that's not bent to a strain point reverts back to its original shape.

[Miller55 333]

1 minute ago, BenBreeg said:

The blade is the spring, the front is unsupported and flexes up (correct me if I got this wrong).

Right, just saw that. The question is, what pushes the blade back down? The fact that it's recessed let's it go up. A spring is usually used to make it return, but if there's no spring, how does the runner go back down?

[BenBreeg 493]

Just now, Miller55 said:

Right, just saw that. The question is, what pushes the blade back down? The fact that it's recessed let's it go up. A spring is usually used to make it return, but if there's no spring, how does the runner go back down?

The steel is the spring so it will return/spring back to its original shape, no external prompting needed.

[Giltis 116]

So metals have stress points, I'm sure you've experienced this in some parts.

When you take a metal clothes hanger for example, you can give it a small bend with a very light force and it will spring back to its original shape (you can do this all day and it will come back to its original shape). But if you bend it with more force you can bend it permanently. This is what stress points and yield points are all about (fracture is when it bends so much that it breaks). Different metals have different points of no return where it bends so much that it deforms (it gets a bit more complicated in reality but you get the idea), you've probably have seen or experienced this with tin boxes or aluminum.

So basically this blade, the way it bends upward, doesn't reach the yield point where it would permanently deform so it recovers back to its original shape (they call this aptly the elastic region). And that force that it springs back with is strong enough to propel you (this is the sell). 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Giltis

[Miller55 333]

I understand that. I'm wondering what it is in contact with? From the picture it just looks like there is a notch in the runner. There had to be some point of continuous contact between the runner and holder for any suspension mechanism to work.

 

Oh nevermind, I get it, it works off of the fin. Duh. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Miller55

[Giltis 116]

Oh I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

I think it's only bolted/secured by the back, and the front is free to move up and down (with bottoming out limits on both), but that's speculation, and probably better to have the official guy respond.

[VegasHockey 1280]

46 minutes ago, Giltis said:

So metals have stress points, I'm sure you've experienced this in some parts.

When you take a metal clothes hanger for example, you can give it a small bend with a very light force and it will spring back to its original shape (you can do this all day and it will come back to its original shape). But if you bend it with more force you can bend it permanently. This is what stress points and yield points are all about (fracture is when it bends so much that it breaks). Different metals have different points of no return where it bends so much that it deforms (it gets a bit more complicated in reality but you get the idea), you've probably have seen or experienced this with tin boxes or aluminum.

So basically this blade, the way it bends upward, doesn't reach the yield point where it would permanently deform so it recovers back to its original shape (they call this aptly the elastic region). And that force that it springs back with is strong enough to propel you (this is the sell). 

The steel can only be able to recover in one direction though? Right? Lets call direction that north/south, with the steel flexing into the holder and releasing.

I am more interested in understanding how the steel will recover from east/west movement and load over a period of time. I imagine that players exert force/pressure on the steel when playing hockey that is not only north/south but also east/west.

For example, here is a high quality steel from a high level player who came in for a sharpening. When I was unable to get his steel sharpened perfectly square I decided to check if it was bent, which it obviously was. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by SkateWorksPNW

[smcgreg 81]

6 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

Cool, so basically redirecting the vector.

So I'm a nerd and not trying to challenge anything, just find the science interesting.  My next question would be: Upon recovery and transitioning to the "stride" when the loading is applied to the blade, isn't more of the force directed to the middle of the blade and transfers to the toe as the stride is executed?  If so, where is the loading taking place?  I saw the video and that you have the pressure monitor (used to use similar for designing wearable medical devices) which I would suppose help understand how those forces are applied throughout the stride.

Lastly, what is the magnitude of the force being redirected?  Even if the above argument proves to be true, the blade 1) has to store and redirect enough energy to make a difference 2) would have to release it before the skate lifted which could then be dependent on stride mechanics to get the most out of this.

Is the 5% increase in velocity proven out over a large sample set?

I'm curious about this too.  If we look at the mechanics of running, we know that increased spring stiffness can increase running performance (but possibly increase injury risk).  But skating isn't running.  If you have trained skating mechanics, then I can see this spring energy return mechanism possibly helping, but after skating for a while, wouldn't the body adapt to the new mechanical dyanamics and minimize the benefit?

Alternatively, the point I think you're getting at is the fact that just because the spring is loaded and releases, doesn't mean the timing of the release can contribute to increased speed.  Mechanics would need to be "tuned" to this effect presumably.  Further, I can see how mistiming of the spring release could be detrimental and contribute to decreased efficiencies. 

Somebody earlier compared them to spungs for ice.  When I skate on my sprungs, I feel like I'm skating in mud. 

I guess I'm a bit skeptical?  If there is data though, by all means, let's take a look!!! 🙂