Supination in skates?

[VegasHockey 1280]

Player recently ordered a pair of TRUE customs skates. As I was doing his bake and fitting I noticed the soles of his shoes show an extreme degree of supination. He has custom orthotics but apparently doesn't use them in this pair of shoes which is why the heel is worn so badly. He estimated that the inside of the lift of his custom orthotics is about 3/4mm which is significant.

I asked him if he has ever had any issues with any of his hockey skates? He says he ever had any issues or modifications done to his previous skates. High level player who played pro in North America and Europe and just recently stopped playing professionally and is now coaching. 

I have had to shim players who pronated but never someone who supinated. In fact, I think this is one of maybe 2/3 people I have ever dealt with who supinated significantly. 

Is supination in hockey skates as big of a problem as pronation? Should I even bother shimming the skates for him? He is going to bring in his orthotics for me to take a look at so that might give me a better understanding of how bad his supination is.

Just standing behind him you can clearly see it though so I am surprised in all of these years playing professionally none of his skating coaches or anyone else noticed this. 

Maybe he doesn't supinate in hockey skates since the boot is so stiff? 

[Vet88 674]

I've seen this before and still see it today in players at a top level. Spend enough time training / skating and the body does adapt and they learn to balance over the skate blade. It doesn't mean the pronation / supination has gone, it's just nullified enough so they can skate. The sad part about this is that it isn't identified early enough and hence the skater never reaches their full potential. As the skater gets better they don't want to do anything that might interfere with their skating ability, even if this might mean they skate better in the long term. It's the short term view that rules, I'm on the team and I'm not going to do anything that might put this at risk. Ultra stiff, well fitted skates do help as they help to lock the ankle straight and reduce any deviation in the subtalar joint. Given the level he skated at, I'd leave it alone. You could suggest that he might want to try a small shim and see if it made any difference but I suspect it will be very hard to get him to change given his history and possible mind set. Which goes back to my earlier point, it's a shame to see these players never reach their full potential but for a someone who knew what to look for during their formative years. 

[Sniper9 530]

13 hours ago, Vet88 said:

I've seen this before and still see it today in players at a top level. Spend enough time training / skating and the body does adapt and they learn to balance over the skate blade. It doesn't mean the pronation / supination has gone, it's just nullified enough so they can skate. The sad part about this is that it isn't identified early enough and hence the skater never reaches their full potential. As the skater gets better they don't want to do anything that might interfere with their skating ability, even if this might mean they skate better in the long term. It's the short term view that rules, I'm on the team and I'm not going to do anything that might put this at risk. Ultra stiff, well fitted skates do help as they help to lock the ankle straight and reduce any deviation in the subtalar joint. Given the level he skated at, I'd leave it alone. You could suggest that he might want to try a small shim and see if it made any difference but I suspect it will be very hard to get him to change given his history and possible mind set. Which goes back to my earlier point, it's a shame to see these players never reach their full potential but for a someone who knew what to look for during their formative years. 

Ya it's probably like this at all levels in different sports too. The mentality of If it isn't broken don't fix it.  But like you said w pro level, maybe mention the idea and let him decide whether he wants to play with the idea during off season training etc. 

If you think about it, the pronation or supination could be caused by years of hockey in I'll fitting boots or their skating form vs the player having this outside of hockey and then adapting to it when skating. 

At some point, biomechanic testing etc will be so common every player will be accustomed to a full analysis etc. I'm sure it happens now but just not as mainstream... and not at such a early age for players in their teens. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Sniper9

[colins 246]

13 hours ago, Vet88 said:

I've seen this before and still see it today in players at a top level. Spend enough time training / skating and the body does adapt and they learn to balance over the skate blade. It doesn't mean the pronation / supination has gone, it's just nullified enough so they can skate. The sad part about this is that it isn't identified early enough and hence the skater never reaches their full potential. As the skater gets better they don't want to do anything that might interfere with their skating ability, even if this might mean they skate better in the long term. It's the short term view that rules, I'm on the team and I'm not going to do anything that might put this at risk. Ultra stiff, well fitted skates do help as they help to lock the ankle straight and reduce any deviation in the subtalar joint. Given the level he skated at, I'd leave it alone. You could suggest that he might want to try a small shim and see if it made any difference but I suspect it will be very hard to get him to change given his history and possible mind set. Which goes back to my earlier point, it's a shame to see these players never reach their full potential but for a someone who knew what to look for during their formative years. 

 

I think this scratches the surface on a much broader topic of "What percentage of kids are taught how to properly skate, before it's too late to really correct what they learn by doing it wrong?".

In addition to uncorrected supination, add things like:

- Inadequate ankle strength and/or mobility

- Weak stabilizers causing the knees to collapse inwards

- Lack of mobility in the hips / inability to perform a hip hinge (ie: "bend your knees more" which is poor advice for this condition)

- Lack of flexibility in the groin / hips /  quads to allow for a good range of motion and extension

Just to name a few.

None of these things are looked at, generally, when kids learn to skate and up through the first 5-10 years of their development.

Instead, every power skating coach or team coach chases them around the circles to "go faster" using the inefficient techniques they develop around any of the limitations noted above.

It's not a knock on the coaches, it's a very complex subject and they can't be expected to be experts in human kinetics. Even if they call out some of the above, very few would have the knowledge or means to advise on how to correct it.

 

colins

[VegasHockey 1280]

1 hour ago, Sniper9 said:

Ya it's probably like this at all levels in different sports too. The mentality of If it isn't broken don't fix it.  But like you said w pro level, maybe mention the idea and let him decide whether he wants to play with the idea during off season training etc. 

 

15 hours ago, Vet88 said:

You could suggest that he might want to try a small shim and see if it made any difference but I suspect it will be very hard to get him to change given his history and possible mind set. 

I offered to shim the skate for him but I am concerned that his supination is not only at the heel but his forefoot as well. The entire outside portions of his shoes showed significant wear so the supination seems significant. Since I don't deal in custom orthotics and that is outside of my scope I think it might make sense for him to visit with a professional. He asked me for a recommendation but I don't know anyone who specifically deals with orthotics that is also familiar with hockey or ice skating. I think his best bet would be to see a highly recommended physician and bring his hockey skates and insoles. Maybe they can adjust his current insoles with wedges in strategic places.

[Sniper9 530]

31 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

 

I offered to shim the skate for him but I am concerned that his supination is not only at the heel but his forefoot as well. The entire outside portions of his shoes showed significant wear so the supination seems significant. Since I don't deal in custom orthotics and that is outside of my scope I think it might make sense for him to visit with a professional. He asked me for a recommendation but I don't know anyone who specifically deals with orthotics that is also familiar with hockey or ice skating. I think his best bet would be to see a highly recommended physician and bring his hockey skates and insoles. Maybe they can adjust his current insoles with wedges in strategic places.

For starters , he should wear his orthotics in his shoes.... But the end goal would be to fix his supination and ultimately not have to use the orthotics. 

[Miller55 333]

7 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

For starters , he should wear his orthotics in his shoes.... But the end goal would be to fix his supination and ultimately not have to use the orthotics. 

It's not always possible to fix supination from what I understand. My father is severely bowlegged and also supinated feet and when he turned around 60 he started getting a lot of injuries playing old man softball. This was one of the things they looked at, but there wasn't much that could be done beyond orthotics because of the nature of the ankle joint. Just playing devil's advocate

[VegasHockey 1280]

I got the images of his orthotics. See below. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

33 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

For starters , he should wear his orthotics in his shoes.... But the end goal would be to fix his supination and ultimately not have to use the orthotics. 

He said he usually does wear them, just this pair of shoes he was wearing is a very low profile and the footbed is built into the shoe so he couldn't use the orthotics in them due to lack of volume. Now that I have seen the orthotics he uses I entirely understand.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

You can attempt to correct supination the same way you would pronation.  

[VegasHockey 1280]

6 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

You can attempt to correct supination the same way you would pronation.  

Would I shim both the front and rear of the inside holders on each skate? 

Would it be better to just add foam to his insoles instead of shimming the holder? 

[Vet88 674]

Looking at the orthotic I'd shim inner front and rear and have the rear shimmed around 1mm-2mm extra in thickness. All the work I have done (and from others who have worked at this and AREN'T selling orthotics) shows that adding foam / whatever to the insole doesn't work, there is nothing for the support to lever off to correct the pronation / supination, all it does is cause the outside of the skate to collapse further.

A while ago in a thread somewhere in the forum, I posted a link to an article from the APMA (I think), it detailed how they dealt with various foot issues in ice hockey skates and how their members were trained in ice hockey skating management. I'll have a hunt for it and post it, from that you might be able to find a member of the association in your area.

 

edit: found it, aapsm. Here's the article and here is a link to their main page that has a members directory, 

https://www.aapsm.org/pdf/humble-skatinga.pdf

http://www.aapsm.org/members-south.html

Edited October 6, 2020 by Vet88

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

4 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

Would I shim both the front and rear of the inside holders on each skate? 

Would it be better to just add foam to his insoles instead of shimming the holder? 

Yeah, you don’t shim both for pronation?  I always shim both towers.

 

[VegasHockey 1280]

33 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

Yeah, you don’t shim both for pronation?  I always shim both towers.

 

For pronation, yes, I have never dealt with supination though. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

@JR Boucicaut @Vet88 

If he pronates, I would shim the outside of the skate and if he supinaes i would shim the inside of the skate?  If he wants to add wedges to his insoles instead it would then be the opposite, right? 

He is leaning towards trying to add an orthotic wedge to the insoles. Then if he doesn't like it he can remove the wedge himself as opposed to a shim would would require him to bring the skates back to me since he doesn't have the tools or knowledge to remove the shim himself. 

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Correct.  Remember, you’re shimming to be able to get the edge the skater can’t access aligned so that they can. That’s why both towers have to be done. If not, it’s going to twist the holder. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

13 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:

Correct.  Remember, you’re shimming to be able to get the edge the skater can’t access aligned so that they can. That’s why both towers have to be done. If not, it’s going to twist the holder. 

I convinced him to let me do this shims instead of adding material to his insoles. 2mm in the front and 4mm in the rear. 

He is going to grab them this afternoon and give them a test. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 10/5/2020 at 4:51 PM, Vet88 said:

Looking at the orthotic I'd shim inner front and rear and have the rear shimmed around 1mm-2mm extra in thickness. All the work I have done (and from others who have worked at this and AREN'T selling orthotics) shows that adding foam / whatever to the insole doesn't work, there is nothing for the support to lever off to correct the pronation / supination, all it does is cause the outside of the skate to collapse further.

A while ago in a thread somewhere in the forum, I posted a link to an article from the APMA (I think), it detailed how they dealt with various foot issues in ice hockey skates and how their members were trained in ice hockey skating management. I'll have a hunt for it and post it, from that you might be able to find a member of the association in your area.

 

edit: found it, aapsm. Here's the article and here is a link to their main page that has a members directory, 

https://www.aapsm.org/pdf/humble-skatinga.pdf

http://www.aapsm.org/members-south.html

This is awesome. Thank you for sharing. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

I convinced him to let me do this shims instead of adding material to his insoles. 2mm in the front and 4mm in the rear. 

He is going to grab them this afternoon and give them a test. 

He said the shims resulted in a significant improvement in his skating. Previously due to the supination he could never get a full toe flick at the end of every stride due to the way his ankles would supinate at full extension which prevented him from "grabbing" the full inside edge of the steel. 

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Correct - because he didn't have both edges under him.

I would advise against varying thicknesses between towers.  It will twist the steel.  Keep it uniform.

[VegasHockey 1280]

16 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:

Correct - because he didn't have both edges under him.

I would advise against varying thicknesses between towers.  It will twist the steel.  Keep it uniform.

Looking at his orthotics though the front has less material than the rear. I don't want to add too much lift to the front to cause him to pronate. 

Instead of shimming the front 2mm and rear 4mm, should I maybe do both at 3mm?

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

It's always going to have less material in the front.  The misalignment is going to be strongest in the heel - which is why you see partial orthotics that stop at the arch or why we check heel wear in shoes.

When doing this for an in-person fitting, I would remove the inside or outside edge rivets and then have the skater lace the boot up and CAREFULLY stand while having the shims wedged in there.  From there, I could take out or add more material before I cut and shaped.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

On 10/5/2020 at 5:07 PM, SkateWorksPNW said:

Would I shim both the front and rear of the inside holders on each skate? 

Would it be better to just add foam to his insoles instead of shimming the holder? 

Before you shim try a blade alignment.  

IMO always do an alignment first similar to figure skates before shimming. And always go thinner on the shims first. It's amazing how a small shim can make a huge difference. 

I have been using the Red Dog Hockey boost method of trying it inside the skate first before mounting it outside with a perfect success rate  so far. 

Started mainly with my son and he skated with Elvis Stojko yesterday and Elvis said a 10000% improvement.  Once we figured what he needed and mounted out side and realigned the blades. 

 

Just my thoughts 

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Before you shim try a blade alignment.  

IMO always do an alignment first similar to figure skates before shimming. And always go thinner on the shims first. It's amazing how a small shim can make a huge difference. 

I have been using the Red Dog Hockey boost method of trying it inside the skate first before mounting it outside with a perfect success rate  so far. 

Started mainly with my son and he skated with Elvis Stojko yesterday and Elvis said a 10000% improvement.  Once we figured what he needed and mounted out side and realigned the blades. 

Just my thoughts 

I didn't end up needing to do an alignment but we did settle on 2mm shims front and rear. He also added a small 1mm piece of foam to the outside heel of his insole and he seems happy with everything.