Quad .5 losing grip

[tvguy 5]

Hi there my son says he feels like he is losing grip on a Quad .5 profile.   He is an elite U15 player has been skating on a 10/11' radius forever with a 5/8ths hollow.   Thought we'd try the .5 but can't seem to get it dailed in. Went to a 9/16ths hollow and that seemed fine for a few skates,  but after the second sharpen at 9/16th he said it felt like there was less grip again.  Any thoughts?  He is on a Step Blacksteel runner if that matters, has been on this runner before with not complaints.  At this point I am thinking about going back to the old radius.     

  

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

Some questions...    same ice surface?  Same outdoor temps?  Do you use a honing stone in between games?  Lots of variables at work here.

[BenBreeg 493]

If the kid is doing well at the level he is playing at, maybe it’s best just to stick with what is working.  I firmly believe there’s less magic in these profiles than some would have you believe.

[marka 526]

Howdy,

12 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

If the kid is doing well at the level he is playing at, maybe it’s best just to stick with what is working.  I firmly believe there’s less magic in these profiles than some would have you believe.

I tend to agree, at least with the "don't be afraid to say that you don't like something you've tried" idea.  My take is that you likely shouldn't ignore that a different profile may help, but also be comfortable with the idea of discarding changes that don't work / don't show promise fairly quickly.

I might be inclined to stick with something a little longer if there's a skating coach or something working directly with your son who's making the recommendations and can explain why, but if its just "the MSH forum guys love the 0.5 quad profile" like it sounds like... Give it a try and if you don't like it, move on.

Mark

[hockeydad3 51]

Doesn´t sound logic, but the skater is always right. What is the size of the runner and his weight? And was it still a 10/11' profile (how many manual sharpens before profiling?)?

Edited November 3, 2021 by hockeydad3

[caveman27 208]

On 10/31/2021 at 12:14 PM, tvguy said:

Hi there my son says he feels like he is losing grip on a Quad .5 profile.   He is an elite U15 player has been skating on a 10/11' radius forever with a 5/8ths hollow.   Thought we'd try the .5 but can't seem to get it dailed in. Went to a 9/16ths hollow and that seemed fine for a few skates,  but after the second sharpen at 9/16th he said it felt like there was less grip again.  Any thoughts?  He is on a Step Blacksteel runner if that matters, has been on this runner before with not complaints.  At this point I am thinking about going back to the old radius.    

What is a "few skates" to you? 8 to 10 practices and/or games? or 4 to 8?

Is this his first season at U15? Does he go to more practices in a week, or the same number of practices but they are longer? Has he gained height and/or weight before the season started? What position does he play? 

[tvguy 5]

On 10/31/2021 at 12:20 PM, dkmiller3356 said:

Some questions...    same ice surface?  Same outdoor temps?  Do you use a honing stone in between games?  Lots of variables at work here.

Same ice. No honing stone on Blacksteel, clay stone yes. 

[tvguy 5]

13 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

Doesn´t sound logic, but the skater is always right. What is the size of the runner and his weight? And was it still a 10/11' profile (how many manual sharpens before profiling?)?

 

13 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

Doesn´t sound logic, but the skater is always right. What is the size of the runner and his weight? And was it still a 10/11' profile (how many manual sharpens before profiling?)?

254, brand new steel.  Same ROH he has skated on his entire life. Why would weight matter? He's essentially the same weight he was on his old steel 2.5 weeks ago.

[puckpilot 312]

As others have said, if it's not working, go back to what you had before. When you change your profile, it's usually with a specific goal in mind, more stability, more agility, etc. BUT.... and I always say this. There's no free lunch. You're always trading a little of this for more of that. The hope is what's being gained out weighs what's being giving up relative to the player. It's not a one size fits all situation. It's about getting things dialed in to compliment, enhance, and aid.

With that said, here's my guess on what may be happening. It's worth what you paid for it. A quad .5 goes 8-10-12-14. The smaller radius at the toe maybe encouraging your son to shift their weight forward a bit more when they're doing things. It doesn't have to be much. With skating millimetres matter. You get the most bite on the blade when you have your weight over the balance point of the blade, which is in the middle of the blade, roughly around the arch.

If your son is starting their stride, or doing anything for that matter, slightly ahead of that balance point, when before they were right over it, he's going to loose bite.

So, it's possible that your son can re-calibrate and be fine, but IMHO, if it wasn't broken before, what are you trying to fix?

my2cents 

Edited November 4, 2021 by puckpilot

[hockeydad3 51]

Quad 0.5 profile has a recommendation from Prosharp, and was developped, for skate size 8-9(runner 280/288mm). If you apply this profile on a 254mm runner, its properties change in a way only prosharp knows. In theory, the middle section 10-12' becomes functionally more dominant and the original forward pitch becomes even more. In the worst case your son is skating on an extremly forward pitched 10/12' profile. If your son wants to try a new profile he could start with the Quad XS, Ellipse XS or Zuperior XS, all of them recommended from prosharp for the 254mm runner. I would suggest to try the Quad XS first, because it is more close to a single/dual profile and Bauer is selling it with their higher end skates out of the box. Compared to the 10/11' profile the Quad XS should give him more acceleration, agility and stability while maintaining the speed. But it's all try and error.

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

On 11/3/2021 at 10:10 PM, tvguy said:

Same ice. No honing stone on Blacksteel, clay stone yes. 

yeah...  you've eliminated the variable and gotten some good advice.  Maybe try a profile with more flat.....  

[hockeydad3 51]

@tvguy

What are the situations he is missing the grip? Making turns, skating tight crossover circles, pushing off, stopping or while standing?

[tvguy 5]

2 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

@tvguy

What are the situations he is missing the grip? Making turns, skating tight crossover circles, pushing off, stopping or while standing?

Mainly pushing off.  I talked to the LHS and I the guy said he tried to make them a neutral pitch when he did them.  It seems like maybe its possbile that shifted the balance point back and he might not be getting enough bite at the ball of his foot? 9/16 sharpen with on a freshly honed wheel seems to have eliviated his complaints.  

The reason for trying the profile was to get a bit more three step speed. That was what we were "sold".  He has always had great edges and fast flat out spead, but he's a bit of an upright skater and with that effortless "floating" kind of stride.  Not sure this change has accomplished what we had hoped to see.  He says it almost feels like he's pushing on half a blade if that makes sense.

There also was an earlier comment about blade size. The prosharp proflie chart says Quad .5 on  runners 245 and up is okay, no?

The suggestion was to go Quad XS which would be even less flat, and further away from his old 10/11 correct?

 

[hockeydad3 51]

If the pitch is corrected by moving the pivot point towards the toe, the middle section was moved forward by maybe 20mm. Again only prosharp knows what happens to the profile, because we don't know the exact details of the profile. It could be that the oversize of the profile and the pitch-correction generated a "franken-profile triple radius 10-12-14". 

In another source Prosharp mentioned that you could go up or down one size if the recommended size shouldn't satisfy. 

If you want a better acceleration than you have to go to a smaller profile radius in the toe area.

With the Quad XS the middle section of the blade has almost the same radius and the heel is even a little bit longer than the 10/11', only the toe area is significantly shorter. 

[hockeydad3 51]

If your son should decide to try the Quad XS, just do it with default settings without pitch correction.

I tested a Quad Zero on my 254mm skates with a 10mm pitch correction. It was a different profile compared to the original, less agile, less acceleration and less stable for crossovers. 

[BenBreeg 493]

I think there too many variables in skating for ProSharps general platitudes to hold true for most people.  Everything from body type, skating mechanics (for all different skating scenarios), leg strength, etc.  Just like the “agility” and “power” labels they are assigning to skate families.  They have rolled these out the last few years with a poor go to market plan IMO.  
 

Secondly, I would think if you are going to experiment, off-season is probably the best time to do it.

As much as I think the majority of profiling is BS, I do have to admit thinking about it for my son but always resist the urge to change.  He’s in Bauer Supreme with a 9/10 profile and has been for years. There is so much he can work on to get better that I think keeping this variable constant is best.

[puckpilot 312]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:39 AM, tvguy said:

The reason for trying the profile was to get a bit more three step speed. That was what we were "sold".  He has always had great edges and fast flat out spead, but he's a bit of an upright skater and with that effortless "floating" kind of stride.  Not sure this change has accomplished what we had hoped to see.  He says it almost feels like he's pushing on half a blade if that makes sense.

From this description, it does sound like his weight has been shifted forward. To get more of that three step speed, you have to be able to get on to your toes faster, which is what the profile is helping with. The trade off is it's maybe too easy to get onto his toes. Think about it. If his weight is centered over the toes more and he pushes off, the stride will be starting more towards the toe, meaning he's using less of the blade.

This is one of the issues I've had to deal with over the years for different reasons, but it was extremely detrimental to my skating. After experimenting with lots of profiles, I had to go in the complete opposite direction of what people tend to recommend. I went to a extremely flat profile 13/26 and a negative pitch, to help me get more centered over my blade and get a full, proper stride.