Pavel Barber Statement on Profiles

[BenBreeg 493]

In the prostrideskatinglabtoronto Instagram video Pavel Barber quickly goes through four profiles from the Elite Profile machine.  Nothing that useful but one interesting statement jumped out.  He started with the 9'/10' and said, "...this is the most popular one in the NHL."  So, whether that's overall or just based on the dataset of their users, it's interesting.  This is the only one that I have ever heard there is any data to show it was better than other profiles it was tested against.  Was it @oldtrainerguy28 that was part of the study or cited it here before?  I have also seen a presentation from ProSharp where I am pretty certain he said most of their NHL skaters were on Quad 0.  That was definitely from a few years ago. 

Just a data point.  I still believe profiling has a big effect on skating, and can be beneficial, but I 100% believe that there are too many, they aren't validated, and for the normal retail consumer, there is no way to match profiles to players based on "talking with the pro shop tech" or filling out a form.

When parsing all this overinformation years ago, I decided to just put my son on 9/10.  It was the only thing there was any data on.  So I figured I would baseline there and at the very worst would have consistency.  It has worked out well.  I'm not chasing profiles and he has never had an issue.  One skate change (strangely from Supreme TO Vapor, but that was the last year of youth sizes so not sure how those sizes actually are pitched) he immediately felt too far back.  Small shim and we were done.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

On 9/21/2024 at 11:32 AM, BenBreeg said:

In the prostrideskatinglabtoronto Instagram video Pavel Barber quickly goes through four profiles from the Elite Profile machine.  Nothing that useful but one interesting statement jumped out.  He started with the 9'/10' and said, "...this is the most popular one in the NHL."  So, whether that's overall or just based on the dataset of their users, it's interesting.  This is the only one that I have ever heard there is any data to show it was better than other profiles it was tested against.  Was it @oldtrainerguy28 that was part of the study or cited it here before?  I have also seen a presentation from ProSharp where I am pretty certain he said most of their NHL skaters were on Quad 0.  That was definitely from a few years ago. 

Just a data point.  I still believe profiling has a big effect on skating, and can be beneficial, but I 100% believe that there are too many, they aren't validated, and for the normal retail consumer, there is no way to match profiles to players based on "talking with the pro shop tech" or filling out a form.

When parsing all this overinformation years ago, I decided to just put my son on 9/10.  It was the only thing there was any data on.  So I figured I would baseline there and at the very worst would have consistency.  It has worked out well.  I'm not chasing profiles and he has never had an issue.  One skate change (strangely from Supreme TO Vapor, but that was the last year of youth sizes so not sure how those sizes actually are pitched) he immediately felt too far back.  Small shim and we were done.

Ben,

1. Sorry that the profile video wasn't up to snuff for you. It was mainly meant to just be an overview of the feel of each profile in his opinion. He is not a skating coach and does not profess to be, 

2. Yes it was me that participated in the sharpening/profiling of the study but I was not in contact with the participants while on the ice doing the drills. I have no knowledge of there feedback. Except when it was it done.

3. So glad the skate change made it better I can not go on enough about making sure the boot fit is the correct one before getting the profile done. Its is the game changer when getting profiling work done. 

 

 

[BenBreeg 493]

2 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Ben,

1. Sorry that the profile video wasn't up to snuff for you. It was mainly meant to just be an overview of the feel of each profile in his opinion. He is not a skating coach and does not profess to be, 

2. Yes it was me that participated in the sharpening/profiling of the study but I was not in contact with the participants while on the ice doing the drills. I have no knowledge of there feedback. Except when it was it done.

3. So glad the skate change made it better I can not go on enough about making sure the boot fit is the correct one before getting the profile done. Its is the game changer when getting profiling work done. 

 

 

1- Wasn't meant as a slight, it's just an Instagram video, was just pointing out it's not an in depth thing, which as you pointed out, it wasn't meant to be

2- I had at one point saved all the studies I could find, now I don't know what I did with them

3- Yeah, didn't anticipate a Vapor being more back than Supreme at that time

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

5 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

1- Wasn't meant as a slight, it's just an Instagram video, was just pointing out it's not an in depth thing, which as you pointed out, it wasn't meant to be

2- I had at one point saved all the studies I could find, now I don't know what I did with them

3- Yeah, didn't anticipate a Vapor being more back than Supreme at that time

1. I realize that totally. I own both the Toronto and LA locations now and we hired Pavel after he did the videos that went Viral in Toronto for LA. 

2. They are still on the Bock U website. 

3. As way back when I said the original Edge holder needed a deeper channel IMO the vapor needs a solid outsole like the new shadow to put the player back to center if not forward. To many shooting off the heel in Vapor.

 

[flip12 714]

10 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

3. As way back when I said the original Edge holder needed a deeper channel IMO the vapor needs a solid outsole like the new shadow to put the player back to center if not forward. To many shooting off the heel in Vapor.

Can you elaborate a bit on the Vapor outsole and pitch?

[caseyjones 26]

Can I hijack this a bit for profile help?  I recently went down a holder size 263 to 254.  I was previously skating with Graf cobras size 263.  I hated the pitch and never felt quite right.  After a couple years I swapped tuuk custom plus size 263 holders and immediately felt more comfortable.  They did have step steel in them with a 9 foot profile.  I recently bought Machs and went from a size 7 Graf 707 to a size 6 Mach.  Took me a few skates to stop tripping over my toes.  The adjustment wasn’t as bad as I thought but it’s still not perfect.  Recently went from stock profile to 11 foot and it didn’t help at all.  I still get a little too far forward and my toes and can stumble occasionally.  I’m sliding out on my crossovers.  Any profile suggestions to get me closer to the feel of the longer blade?  I’m contemplating just swapping a larger holder, but not sure if I should screw around with profiling a little more.  I already paid over $40 for the last change.  A couple more changes and I could have paid to just put new holders on.  

[flip12 714]

17 hours ago, caseyjones said:

Can I hijack this a bit for profile help?  I recently went down a holder size 263 to 254.  I was previously skating with Graf cobras size 263.  I hated the pitch and never felt quite right.  After a couple years I swapped tuuk custom plus size 263 holders and immediately felt more comfortable.  They did have step steel in them with a 9 foot profile.  I recently bought Machs and went from a size 7 Graf 707 to a size 6 Mach.  Took me a few skates to stop tripping over my toes.  The adjustment wasn’t as bad as I thought but it’s still not perfect.  Recently went from stock profile to 11 foot and it didn’t help at all.  I still get a little too far forward and my toes and can stumble occasionally.  I’m sliding out on my crossovers.  Any profile suggestions to get me closer to the feel of the longer blade?  I’m contemplating just swapping a larger holder, but not sure if I should screw around with profiling a little more.  I already paid over $40 for the last change.  A couple more changes and I could have paid to just put new holders on.  

What profile were you on when you went from tripping over your toes to 11'? Over here there was discussion about Bauer putting Quad profiles on top of the line boots: 

If that was still the case with Mach, you may have been skating on a +1 pitch before profiling them to 11'. A Quad would have a shorter radius at the front than 11', so it would make sense you'd only catch your toes more, if that's what you were coming from. It sounds like you need to get the blade profiled back to neutral. I've just started experimenting with profiling and the difference from LS2 stock neutral (still more pitched than Custom+ if I'm not mistaken) to +1 from shifting the balance point back 20mm was night and day for me.

Just my two cents. I'm far from expert in profiling by MSH standards.

[caseyjones 26]

1 hour ago, flip12 said:

What profile were you on when you went from tripping over your toes to 11'? Over here there was discussion about Bauer putting Quad profiles on top of the line boots: 

If that was still the case with Mach, you may have been skating on a +1 pitch before profiling them to 11'. A Quad would have a shorter radius at the front than 11', so it would make sense you'd only catch your toes more, if that's what you were coming from. It sounds like you need to get the blade profiled back to neutral. I've just started experimenting with profiling and the difference from LS2 stock neutral (still more pitched than Custom+ if I'm not mistaken) to +1 from shifting the balance point back 20mm was night and day for me.

Just my two cents. I'm far from expert in profiling by MSH standards.

So I had 3 different sets of steel. Fly-x that came retail with the skates, pulse ti that I got used but assuming was stock profile and I also purchased new step steel that I had used.  I really didn’t notice any differences between the 3 outside of the quality and feel of the steel.  I feel like getting as much steel as I can on the ice would make me feel more normal.  If I am pitched a bit forward I don’t really notice it at all.  

[flip12 714]

Again, there are others who definitely know that can correct my guesses, but if my recollection is right, Bauer's stock replacement steel has been 10' for a while, and Step is usually 10' as well. If the steel at the toe was getting in the way, going to 11' from 10' would only make that worse, even if just a bit. But if you went from Custom+ to PowerFly or Edge, I think you're also experiencing a difference in forward pitch again. Maybe not as drastic as Cobras with their stock 11' forward pitched steel. The more I think about it, the more it seems you want to be back in a more neutral pitch.

The most comprehensive pitch resource I've found is this https://icehockey360.ru/baza-znanij/geometricheskie-parametry-stakanov/

It's in Russian, but it makes sense from the measurements and diagrams. If you liked Custom+ with 9', skating on a newer Bauer holder with 11' is back in the direction you were at originally in 707s on stock Cobras. That's a big difference. I know it from the other side because that stock Graf setup is my favorite of all that I've tried and as soon as I have that pitch back it's so much better for me. Pitch is the big difference maker for me from my recent profilings. That could make my advice here biased, but as I said, hopefully those who know better will correct anything that doesn't quite add up. I'm still very much a novice when it comes to profiling. I'm a believer now, just one with very little knowledge in the area.

[sturdy22 28]

On 10/11/2024 at 12:08 AM, flip12 said:

The most comprehensive pitch resource I've found is this https://icehockey360.ru/baza-znanij/geometricheskie-parametry-stakanov/

 

This is awesome. I’ve been having my steel pitched forward since the mid 90s. The CXN holder and stock steel has been the closest I have found without having to adjust the steel and when I can find them always put on my boots. The measurements and diagrams are very cool to see.

Edited October 12 by sturdy22

[flip12 714]

4 hours ago, sturdy22 said:

This is awesome. I’ve been having my steel pitched forward since the mid 90s. The CXN holder and stock steel has been the closest I have found without having to adjust the steel and when I can find them always get out on my boots. The measurements and diagrams are very cool to see.

I only skated on Makos once and the pitch reminded me a lot of being on Cobras. It just feels so much better for me to have that pitch. Even though Bauer’s holders from LS2 on are supposed to be as pitched as Cobra and stock Graf steel it still feels off to me, too far back.

[sturdy22 28]

16 minutes ago, flip12 said:

I only skated on Makos once and the pitch reminded me a lot of being on Cobras. It just feels so much better for me to have that pitch. Even though Bauer’s holders from LS2 on are supposed to be as pitched as Cobra and stock Graf steel it still feels off to me, too far back.

I have never skated on cobras but do still have several pairs of Makos with CXNs. the Lightspeed, Edge and Power Fly holders are not the same pitch as CXN with the Es4 steel when on the mako boot. I’ve spent hundreds of $$ on profiling trying to get the right feel and always end up back in the CXNs.

[flip12 714]

1 hour ago, sturdy22 said:

I have never skated on cobras but do still have several pairs of Makos with CXNs. the Lightspeed, Edge and Power Fly holders are not the same pitch as CXN with the Es4 steel when on the mako boot. I’ve spent hundreds of $$ on profiling trying to get the right feel and always end up back in the CXNs.

There's definitely something that doesn't quite work out from his diagrams and calculations to the actual feel on the ice. Cobra feels way more pitched than Custom+, but his work shows them as the same. LS2 and Edge are supposed to be more pitched than Cobra but to me they feel less pitched. CXN and True Shift are supposed to be the same, but Shift feels closer to LS2 to me and CXN feels very close to Cobra.

I've recently gone from 13' neutral to 13' +1 pitch on LS2s and they feel much better than before, closer to that Cobra/CXN feel. What profiles have you tried?

[sturdy22 28]

6 minutes ago, flip12 said:

I've recently gone from 13' neutral to 13' +1 pitch on LS2s and they feel much better than before, closer to that Cobra/CXN feel. What profiles have you tried?

I have tried prosharp Quad 0 and 1. Dual 9.5/10.5 with a neutral and forward pitch on LS/edge holders.

Tydan custom profile. I thinks it’s Gold.

Marsblade I2 stock profile with 3mm heel lifts (Pretty good on Trues).

most of the profiles just feel flat or long with too much steel at the toe.

Coming from a Blackstone +4, single 9’ or 10’ on Tuuk custom + on Nike quest 1s. then the same profile on LS2 and edge which usually needed some adjustment depending on the boot. Same steel between vapors and supremes felt different.

I have pretty much settled in on Cxn holders with ES4 steel on trues or makos. 

so the Russian article with the diagrams and measurements is interesting to look at. Boot angle also is a factor 
 
 

 

[pgeorgan 76]

I'm more interested in hearing about whether 9/10 or Quad 0 is the most popular NHL profile. Let's get this thread back on track! 

Edited October 22 by pgeorgan

[caseyjones 26]

On 10/11/2024 at 3:08 AM, flip12 said:

Again, there are others who definitely know that can correct my guesses, but if my recollection is right, Bauer's stock replacement steel has been 10' for a while, and Step is usually 10' as well. If the steel at the toe was getting in the way, going to 11' from 10' would only make that worse, even if just a bit. But if you went from Custom+ to PowerFly or Edge, I think you're also experiencing a difference in forward pitch again. Maybe not as drastic as Cobras with their stock 11' forward pitched steel. The more I think about it, the more it seems you want to be back in a more neutral pitch.

The most comprehensive pitch resource I've found is this https://icehockey360.ru/baza-znanij/geometricheskie-parametry-stakanov/

It's in Russian, but it makes sense from the measurements and diagrams. If you liked Custom+ with 9', skating on a newer Bauer holder with 11' is back in the direction you were at originally in 707s on stock Cobras. That's a big difference. I know it from the other side because that stock Graf setup is my favorite of all that I've tried and as soon as I have that pitch back it's so much better for me. Pitch is the big difference maker for me from my recent profilings. That could make my advice here biased, but as I said, hopefully those who know better will correct anything that doesn't quite add up. I'm still very much a novice when it comes to profiling. I'm a believer now, just one with very little knowledge in the area.

Somehow I missed this reply.  Very interesting.  I do agree with your thought that feel on the ice doesn’t always match up to how the measurements suggest it should feel. My Graf g7’s were pitched so far forward that a 6mm wedge in the toe still had me feeling like I was too far on my toes.  Swapping a custom plus on my 707’s made me feel comfortable immediately.

after skating a couple more times I opted to have a larger holder put on my skates.  Gonna try them out today.  My only concern is that they are offset more towards the heel than the toe.  Not sure if it’s something I’ll notice at all.  I’m also testing out 3 different profiles as well so we’ll see how it all goes.  I’ve also been thinking about what you said about the pitch.  Wondering if something as simple as a negative pitch to put me a little more on my heels would make things feel normal. 
 

I also discovered steel in the XL version.  I’m wondering if just using the XL steel with the smaller holders would have fixed my issue.  It seems very hard to find though.  I could get it for LS2 holders and just swap the same size LS2 holder on.  But we’ll see how it goes today.