Its all over by the crying

[Jackal3688 0]

Did anyone see or listen to Gary Bettmans press conference? He "apologizes" to the fans for all that is going on. Yea right, I'm gunna call a BS on that one, he could care less about us. You can listen to it on NHL.com. Apparently the NHL and the NHLPA are meeting tomorrow according to Gary.

[Bane 1]

I wonder if Bettman promised the owners that he would get linkage, and Goodenow promised the players that he would get a new CBA without a cap? If they made those promises, then each will have to be dismissed before negotiations can truly move forward.

I don't think we even have to wonder about those two scenario's.

I understand your point that they were doing their jobs in trying to get the best for each side. But there is no reason of why they could start negotiating like this in Augest and September. There was no urgency what-so-ever from either side and they should both be punished because of that.,

The NHL tried to start CBA negotiations over five years ago. The NHLPA however would have none of it, and instead waited until last spring to even begin discussions. The NHLPA said they would not even discuss matters until expiration of the current deal. Maybe if the NHPLA had started when the NHL tried, they would understand the issues and there would be no argument about how much the league makes or how much the teams are losing.

Blame the NHLPA for that.

[Jim Bob 0]

http://www.nhlcbanews.com/news/nhl_compromise020905.html

I think the NHL made a major concession yesterday when they offered to go with the NHLPA's system if they'd agree to switch to the NHL's system if some financial triggers were hit.

Although, the NHLPA dismissed the notion because they felt that the trigger points would easily be hit.

Here is my analysis of where things are at currently given the contract data placed on NHLPA.com:

Based purely on salary numbers posted on NHLPA.com today, there are 4 teams that would likely break the $42 million threshold even with the 24% rollback.

Toronto has 21 players signed that would put them at over $47 million after the rollback.

NJ has 23 players signed that would put them at over $45.5 million after the rollback.

Philadelphia has 19 players signed that would put them at almost $45.5 million after the rollback.

Detroit has 19 players signed that would put them at just over $42 million after the rollback.

And teams like Dallas and the NY Rangers could easily top the $42 million mark by merely filling out their rosters even after the rollback.

If that $42 million threshold includes all player compensation (base salary + bonuses, insurance, pension, etc.), then I highly doubt that trigger wouldn't be hit the first season that the triggers can be hit.

Also, after the rollback the average team salary is at just over $27.5 million. However, teams only average 18.5 players under contract, so that average team compensation number might be in danger as well.

I also think that 33% gap between the top 3 and the bottom 3 payrolls is all but guaranteed to be triggered as well.Right now the top 3 would average in the $45 to 46 million range. And after everyone gets signed, my guess is that the bottom 3 would average less than $30 million. As is, the bottom 3 would be averaging around $11 million per team after the rollback. Although, those teams have more roster spots to fill than the top 3.

I can agree with the NHLPA's assertion that accepting this deal would basically be agreeing to the NHL's last offer that they've already turned down. However, I don't believe Bob Goodenow when he says that this proposal couldn't be the basis for an agreement.

This offer by the NHL puts forth the first true framework for a comprimise, IMO. There has to be a way that this deal can be tweaked such that it is palatable for the NHLPA.

Heck, add a clause that says that if the trigger is tripped to kick the NHL's cap system into effect, the NHLPA then has the right to end this CBA after the same number of cap years have been played out as there were non-cap years. Basically, if the NHLPA's offer is in place for only 1 season, the NHLPA would have the right to end the CBA after one season under the NHL's system.

There has to be a way to get things done. Especially after this major move by the NHL.

[DrMolotov 0]

I'd like to see the owners and players make a vote of no confidence in Bettman and Goodenow respectively.... it'll never happen though. At least we have curling... ;)

[roadrunner 12]

I don't know if any of you read that statement by Ken Dryden. He said that for most of us Hockey is a Habit not a Passion. I think I'm beginning to realize that it has been a habit since I was a child and that Soccer is my real passion.

[DrMolotov 0]

The following article can be found in today's Toronto Star

Feb. 9, 2005. 04:43 PM

Many NHL fans don't miss game, poll suggests

CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA — Almost 40 per cent of the NHL's Canadian fan base said they don't miss the pro game, according to a new poll that spells further trouble for warring National Hockey League partners.

The national survey suggests that five months into a labour lockout that has darkened NHL rinks since September, "opinion seems to be drifting towards indifference," Decima CEO Bruce Anderson said today.

Overall, 39 per cent of those polled said they were regular NHL followers. That was down three points from a similar Decima Research poll a year earlier.

Among those self-described fans, more than one in three — 37 per cent — said they weren't pining away for NHL hockey.

When fans and non-fans alike were included, barely a quarter — 28 per cent — said they missed the game.

"If either side in this dispute is holding back in negotiation, waiting to harness a broad and deep demand for the return of hockey, these numbers say this is really unlikely to happen," said Anderson.

The poll of 1,008 adult Canadians from Feb. 2-7 is considered accurate within 3.1 per cent, 19 times out of 20.

The numbers buttress an observation by Ken Dryden, the Hall of Fame goaltender and former NHL executive, who said this week the extended hiatus is making some hockey followers realize their pastime was more habit than passion.

"You never want to give a fan a chance to find out whether it was passion or habit," said the federal minister for social development.

A COMPAS poll last month found that interest among hockey fans had fallen by 30 per cent.

The new Decima survey suggests that only nine per cent of Canadians support the position of the NHL players in the salary dispute.

Support for team owners — who locked the players out and are demanding team salary caps linked to league revenues — was much higher, but still only 28 per cent.

Some 27 per cent of respondents supported both sides equally, while another 22 per cent supported neither side.

Among hard-core NHL fans, support broke down as: 34 per cent for owners; 15 per cent for players; 34 per cent equally; and 14 per cent for neither.

What the polls don't say is whether amateur hockey's popularity has suffered or bloomed as a result of the NHL shutdown.

Ian Bird, executive director of the Canadian Professional Coaches Association, was in Ottawa on Wednesday lobbying for increased federal funding for amateur sport.

"The lived experience of Canadians in hockey continues to be very strong," said Baird, noting the commitment to the national team "has not wavered."

"I also think that what we're finding is a real opportunity to begin to share the stories of some of the athletes who pursue sports toward the Olympic and paralympic path."

[Eazy_b97 1]

I believe this last proposal could've worked. There's 1 thing I noticed, Philly is over 48 mill (from my sources) and have 21 players signed. Apperantly they would all have a week to get things in order.

What I would do. Keep those triggers, but add a 3 strike clause. Instead of going straight to the NHL's proposal have an increased trigger for the first 3 times. Say first offense, all the triggers move up 5 mill. or 3%, whichever is applicable, then for the next, add 3 mill and 2%, then the last time 1 mill and 1%. With every offense, the Luxury tax penalty increases 20%. After this is someone goes over, and the owners want to put a cap inplace, it is set at 48 million and 33 million. Giving a little more to the players and a little more incentive to try this out. It'll have the players watching their own contracts in comparison with the Leafs.

The only reason I knew Phill'ys was 48 was because the Leafs weren't #1 from the source I saw (Sportsnet and Headline Sports)

[Chadd 916]

I believe this last proposal could've worked. There's 1 thing I noticed, Philly is over 48 mill (from my sources) and have 21 players signed. Apperantly they would all have a week to get things in order.

What I would do. Keep those triggers, but add a 3 strike clause. Instead of going straight to the NHL's proposal have an increased trigger for the first 3 times. Say first offense, all the triggers move up 5 mill. or 3%, whichever is applicable, then for the next, add 3 mill and 2%, then the last time 1 mill and 1%. With every offense, the Luxury tax penalty increases 20%. After this is someone goes over, and the owners want to put a cap inplace, it is set at 48 million and 33 million. Giving a little more to the players and a little more incentive to try this out. It'll have the players watching their own contracts in comparison with the Leafs.

The only reason I knew Phill'ys was 48 was because the Leafs weren't #1 from the source I saw (Sportsnet and Headline Sports)

That offer was simply for PR, just like the NHLPA offer of the 24% rollback was simply about PR.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Ya, but now the NHL is using that 24% roll-back in everything, I don't see why the NHLPA cannot come back and try and screw them on it.

[Chadd 916]

Ya, but now the NHL is using that 24% roll-back in everything, I don't see why the NHLPA cannot come back and try and screw them on it.

The problem is any concession the PA puts in any offer, the NHL just adds to the list and sticks to their position. If they offered a luxury tax starting at $35M and a hard cap at $50M, the PA would probably accept. Of course the NHL couldn't get rid of arbitration and would need to lower free agency a bit.

[Eazy_b97 1]

This is why its so frustrating IMO. I can see that working, but the NHL will not have a cap that high.

[Chadd 916]

This is why its so frustrating IMO. I can see that working, but the NHL will not have a cap that high.

If they did something resembling serious revenue sharing it would work. Maybe increasing tax levels as you get closer to the cap as well.

[Jim Bob 0]

Jim, I don't think it was a major consession, because I believe the format would rule the Dec 9 plan by the NHLPA, which was more of a work in progress. To get talks serious again.

And who decides on whether or not it works? Bettman? It just adds time lag between that point and the point where the NHL's proposal comes in. Something that was not really negotiated on by both parties. Not much justice in that.

Its also a tactic to make the players look as bad as possible to the Neive. The same people who are touting this as "The playings opposing their own proposal

I see it as a major concession that one side actually put forth the concept of using the other side's proposal on a trial basis.

Before yesterday neither side had once even considered using the other side's proposal.

Obviously the NHL's offer was a trap that the NHLPA didn't bite on. However, I think this offer is much more of a "basis for ongoing negotiations" than anything either side had offered up to date.

The problem is getting the NHL and the NHLPA to agree on how to determine whether the NHLPA's system "is working".

[Jim Bob 0]

Ya, but now the NHL is using that 24% roll-back in everything, I don't see why the NHLPA cannot come back and try and screw them on it.

The problem is any concession the PA puts in any offer, the NHL just adds to the list and sticks to their position. If they offered a luxury tax starting at $35M and a hard cap at $50M, the PA would probably accept. Of course the NHL couldn't get rid of arbitration and would need to lower free agency a bit.

The other problem is that the NHLPA refuses to believe that the NHL owners have the resolve to get cost certainty one way or the other.

For some reason, the NHLPA believes that they can outwait the owners this time around and I can't see that happening.

These aren't the same owners that caved in 92 and 94 for the most part.

[Jim Bob 0]

Everyone on both sides of this battle should read this article a few times:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Art...EY10/TPNational

[Chadd 916]

It's a shame that people are being put out of work, but it's really a bad human interest story and not a hockey one. That same situation happens 100 times a day in the US in every other industry. In fact, they're lucky that the jobs haven't been sent overseas already.

[DrMolotov 0]

Everyone on both sides of this battle should read this article a few times:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Art...EY10/TPNational

Sad article indeed. It is biased though and its easy to see what side she blames the bulk of the problem on, but most from Canada share that view. And its to be expected noting differences of lifestyles, etc from the US. It only makes sense to blame the millionares and not the billionares.

I am sorry to be so sarcastic, but I was expecting something that placed blame evenly on both ends.

Fact is, Canadians side more with the owners and while a salary cap may hurt the a team like the Maple Leafs, it will protect the small market Canadian teams.

One simple fact is the owners put up their own money, why should they not get a large slice of the pie. I blame Bettman and Goodenow for this mess, neither wants to blink and everyone else will suffer because of it. Time to put some Canucks in charge of the game.

[Chadd 916]

Everyone on both sides of this battle should read this article a few times:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Art...EY10/TPNational

Sad article indeed. It is biased though and its easy to see what side she blames the bulk of the problem on, but most from Canada share that view. And its to be expected noting differences of lifestyles, etc from the US. It only makes sense to blame the millionares and not the billionares.

I am sorry to be so sarcastic, but I was expecting something that placed blame evenly on both ends.

Fact is, Canadians side more with the owners and while a salary cap may hurt the a team like the Maple Leafs, it will protect the small market Canadian teams.

One simple fact is the owners put up their own money, why should they not get a large slice of the pie. I blame Bettman and Goodenow for this mess, neither wants to blink and everyone else will suffer because of it. Time to put some Canucks in charge of the game.

Poor little small-market Edmonton made money last year. Small market Vancouver made money last year. A hard cap and hard floor will not help these teams in any way. The only thing that will make any type of difference is real revenue sharing.

[DrMolotov 0]

True Edmonton and Vancouver made money but in the past few years it seems they develope their players only to lose them to richer teams in free agency. This goes for Calgary as well, and I should note that I do not believe that a cap will magically cureall the leagues problems, it may allow teams to hold on to their stars. Maybe they can add a franchise player clause...

[Chadd 916]

Maybe they can add a franchise player clause...

That was discussed but the big market teams wanted to exclude those contracts from the cap and the small market teams wanted them included for the cap floor.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Just curious, but who are these great players they are developing that are going elsewhere? Edmonton seems to be the main team to fire people away. Calgary was in good position until the mid-90's. I still can't think of anyone huge they lost. Theo Fleury? Even Edmonton, the lost some good players, but when you are drafting fairly high every year it is a little easier to pick out that top talent. I think Edmonton uses that as an excuse as well, they build up these "stars" to make it seem like they are great players and they do so well building teams, and if not for the money problems they would be at the top of the league. In my opinion its a crap, they use it as a tactic so if they make the playoffs its a joyus occasion and if they don't its because they are broke. It's a no lose situation for them.

[Chadd 916]

Just curious, but who are these great players they are developing that are going elsewhere? Edmonton seems to be the main team to fire people away. Calgary was in good position until the mid-90's. I still can't think of anyone huge they lost. Theo Fleury? Even Edmonton, the lost some good players, but when you are drafting fairly high every year it is a little easier to pick out that top talent. I think Edmonton uses that as an excuse as well, they build up these "stars" to make it seem like they are great players and they do so well building teams, and if not for the money problems they would be at the top of the league. In my opinion its a crap, they use it as a tactic so if they make the playoffs its a joyus occasion and if they don't its because they are broke. It's a no lose situation for them.

Why do have to go and blow their cover? Come on, Doug Weight is a huge star. Good analysis though.

[Eazy_b97 1]

It's junk. Ryan Smyth is an AVERAGE HOCKEY PLAYER! Great guy, always gives 110%, but really not much more. Anson Carter (sorry JR), Comrie, like you said Weight. I like to refer to it as Steve Sullivan syndrome. Everyones point totals will go up with minutes. These are good hockey players, but 3rd liners on the top hockey teams. It's just they are in places where they can load up on points because they play key minutes. Because your a star on a team, doesn't mean your a star in the league.

[Chadd 916]

Steve's a second line guy on most teams.

[DrMolotov 0]

If you look at player drafted and developed by Edmonton, you wouldn't come up with a lot of names, but in the last few years Bill Guerin, Doug Weight, Mike Grier, Todd Marchant, Anson Carter have all departed via trade or free agency because Edmonton did not have the money to compete. They did not leave because the team failed to make the playoffs, and I believe Edmonton is always a dark horse in the playoff due to the fact they are a skating team.

If the current economic system continues Edmonton will surely lose players they have drafted and developed such as Ryan Smyth, Shane Horcoff, Ales Hemsky to name a few. Do you think Vancouver can keep the Sedin's when they become free agents? How about an American example can Atlanta keep Kovalchuk and Heately or even just one of them? Again, I am not suggesting the cap is the answer but something needs to be done.