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Quad Zero profile

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7 minutes ago, m3thods said:

Wow I had no idea. I figured the new Edge holders were just taller/lighter than the Tuuks on my Vapors and that the boots between the two lines would just be identical in pitch because of that.

I've never had shims put in a skate before, but I'm thinking I'd go with that instead of messing more with steel for now. Naturally I have a few questions:

1. How thick of a shim would you suggest? Right now I feel more on my heels, so something that puts me closer to a "+1" would be great

2. How much should they cost? (I trust my LHS, but since I've never done this before I'm just looking to see if what they charge is in the right ballpark)

3. How does the pitch of the skate affect the profile? Does having the shims in make it seem like my entire foot is being tilted forward but the profile is left mainly intact? Or does one's profile need to be adjusted along with the pitch to get the current feeling. 

 

Thanks for being patient with the questions. As you can tell, I'm not that committed to finding the absolute perfect skate setup, but anything that gets me closer to that ideal situation would make my skates that much more enjoyable since I do like a lot of things about the new boot/profile. The things I'm not liking are minor annoyances, and nothing I'd replace the skates with new ones for.

You probably want to start at 1/16".  It's usually the thinnest you'll find, and would put you on a +1 on a Supreme - as previously stated, Supreme tends to be heel-happy.  This gets it to neutral and then one up.  Every pitch increment is 1/32".

I offer it.  I charge $15, but you're responsible for shipping back and forth.  Might be easier to find someone local, but then again, most don't do it.

You're pitching the boot.  Profile stays the same.

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Nope, Supremes definitely have a more neutral pitch.  Many posters here have complained about the feeling of being back on their heels when they switched to new Supremes.  I can't say for sure if it's the boot or the holder, because I had that feeling when I went from NXGs to MX3s, both Supremes, with the only change being the holder.  I'd imagine that going from a non-Edge Vapor to an Edge Supreme would be an even more dramatic change.

I have no idea.  DO a quick search on here for "shim" and I'm sure the answer is out there.  Maybe someone more experienced with this than me can help you out.

I can't imagine that it would be more than a few bucks. Rivets are $1-2 each, and the shims can't be that much.  I'd expect something in the $20 range maybe?

It doesn't affect the profile, it will tilt you forward to get you off your heels and more of the feeling that you had in the Vapors.   So if your Supremes are a 0 in terms of pitch, your Vapors may have been a +2 forward.  The Quad 0 is giving you back close to a +1, but you're still behind what you had before.  You can have the profile put on at an angle to alter the pitch, without altering the profile or adding shims.  But I feel Shims are the better method.

 

EDIT: Or you can just wait for JR to reply and answer everything more accurately than I can.  lol

Edited by psulion22
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Thanks so much guys I've learned a ton in just a few hours and a few replied posts. Now off to my LHS to check if they do the work. 

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11 hours ago, psulion22 said:

Nope, Supremes definitely have a more neutral pitch.  Many posters here have complained about the feeling of being back on their heels when they switched to new Supremes.  I can't say for sure if it's the boot or the holder, because I had that feeling when I went from NXGs to MX3s, both Supremes, with the only change being the holder.  I'd imagine that going from a non-Edge Vapor to an Edge Supreme would be an even more dramatic change.

I have no idea.  DO a quick search on here for "shim" and I'm sure the answer is out there.  Maybe someone more experienced with this than me can help you out.

I can't imagine that it would be more than a few bucks. Rivets are $1-2 each, and the shims can't be that much.  I'd expect something in the $20 range maybe?

It doesn't affect the profile, it will tilt you forward to get you off your heels and more of the feeling that you had in the Vapors.   So if your Supremes are a 0 in terms of pitch, your Vapors may have been a +2 forward.  The Quad 0 is giving you back close to a +1, but you're still behind what you had before.  You can have the profile put on at an angle to alter the pitch, without altering the profile or adding shims.  But I feel Shims are the better method.

 

EDIT: Or you can just wait for JR to reply and answer everything more accurately than I can.  lol

Heel lifts are a good option if you don't have access to a competent shop that can perform and maintain profiles.

There are also a solid option if you like the factory steel profile but just want a little more pitch forward. 

Some people would rather use a heel lifts as opposed to grinding down their steel. Totally understandable. 

I can't say if one option is better than the other. Too many variables. 

In fact, we even get people who want lifts AND profile their steel. How bout that?!

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The key is to do things one at a time.  He did the profile first and figured he needed more pitch; what is good about lifts is that it's not permanent.  

Even though I knew exactly what I needed, I would always profile my steel neutral and add the lift after.

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On 7/20/2018 at 8:23 PM, dkmiller3356 said:

Loved my quad 0 but I'm nit feeling the same amount of blade on the ice lately.  I've gained weight and think maybe I am skating differently.

It is possible sharpening has changed the profile over time - I would get them re-profiled and should feel good again - some suggest every 6 months

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On 8/10/2018 at 8:31 AM, JR Boucicaut said:

The key is to do things one at a time.  He did the profile first and figured he needed more pitch; what is good about lifts is that it's not permanent.  

Even though I knew exactly what I needed, I would always profile my steel neutral and add the lift after.

Hello JR

Been awhile but I have a tough one I hope you can help - I have switched from Grafs to Bauer 1S boots recently - -I was very comfortably in 288 mm with 8/12 combo slight pitch on the Grafs  - my 1S also have 288 but when I compare the steel the Bauer blades are longer - not sure why they both state 288 when really Bauer should be 292 - I also was slipping with crossing over with 8/12 and 90/75 FBV cut so I figured I would try quad profiling too.  I have been going in circles - -first no icings custom quad not sure of numbers since claim trade secret  - -was not close to what I wanted -lean too far back - figured I would get something close to the .5 quad (8,10,12,14) but not available and they suggested one of their own - next I tried the Quad 2 (7,10,13,16) w/ +2 way too long for me - Then tried the quad 1 w+2 which was better, but still after moving up to 85/50 still feel to much blade and getting chattering and still need sharper turns.  Also I should mention I have some catching about 3/4 way on the blade - makes my skates have a blow out - thought it was bent blades but they are new black steel - Do you think it is possible the heel from the +2 is too high causing me to blow out?  I think I should lower the pitch to a +1 so they don't catch and shorten my radius to quad 0 for better turns and lil less blade on the ice should help with chattering and turning- - am i on the right track? - I also tried using a gel cushion under footbed to help like a shim to get me more on my toes to adjust Bauer from Grafs - I'm thinking to remove those as well - any suggestions? - I can't suffer another blow out - tore both my mcl's recently - hopefully I'm on the right track

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3 hours ago, ReggieDunlop said:

Hello JR

Been awhile but I have a tough one I hope you can help - I have switched from Grafs to Bauer 1S boots recently - -I was very comfortably in 288 mm with 8/12 combo slight pitch on the Grafs  - my 1S also have 288 but when I compare the steel the Bauer blades are longer - not sure why they both state 288 when really Bauer should be 292 - I also was slipping with crossing over with 8/12 and 90/75 FBV cut so I figured I would try quad profiling too.  I have been going in circles - -first no icings custom quad not sure of numbers since claim trade secret  - -was not close to what I wanted -lean too far back - figured I would get something close to the .5 quad (8,10,12,14) but not available and they suggested one of their own - next I tried the Quad 2 (7,10,13,16) w/ +2 way too long for me - Then tried the quad 1 w+2 which was better, but still after moving up to 85/50 still feel to much blade and getting chattering and still need sharper turns.  Also I should mention I have some catching about 3/4 way on the blade - makes my skates have a blow out - thought it was bent blades but they are new black steel - Do you think it is possible the heel from the +2 is too high causing me to blow out?  I think I should lower the pitch to a +1 so they don't catch and shorten my radius to quad 0 for better turns and lil less blade on the ice should help with chattering and turning- - am i on the right track? - I also tried using a gel cushion under footbed to help like a shim to get me more on my toes to adjust Bauer from Grafs - I'm thinking to remove those as well - any suggestions? - I can't suffer another blow out - tore both my mcl's recently - hopefully I'm on the right track

Way too much to read here. Let's bring this to the basics. When using the factory profile of 10' what do you not like?

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What JR, er, Nicholas...LOL...said is indeed correct.  You need to start over again.  

Too many times I would see people want the exact same thing they had on their old (different model) skates, not realizing that the boot pitch and rake were completely different on the new ones.  I realize that in your case you've been trying to compensate for the pitch, but I don't understand why the Quads were pitched additionally, when they're already pitched forward.  This is where a heel lift would've come in handy, because your steel keeps getting lower and lower.  Curious to see a picture of the blade - can you provide that?

We're waiting for more templates from Prosharp before we can start our project, but someone like you would be a very good candidate.  

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14 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

Way too much to read here. Let's bring this to the basics. When using the factory profile of 10' what do you not like?

 

26 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

What JR, er, Nicholas...LOL...said is indeed correct.  You need to start over again.  

Too many times I would see people want the exact same thing they had on their old (different model) skates, not realizing that the boot pitch and rake were completely different on the new ones.  I realize that in your case you've been trying to compensate for the pitch, but I don't understand why the Quads were pitched additionally, when they're already pitched forward.  This is where a heel lift would've come in handy, because your steel keeps getting lower and lower.  Curious to see a picture of the blade - can you provide that?

We're waiting for more templates from Prosharp before we can start our project, but someone like you would be a very good candidate.  

Sorry Nicholas this was for Mr JR Boucicaut and he has answered (thank you) - not going into what's wrong with 10' stock - As I stated I was comfortable with a 8/12 combo but was slipping during cross overs - meaning not enough blade on the ice for my stride  - blades were sharp too.  I did remove the generic cushion heel lifts that I had under my insoles and it did feel better and no catching towards the back end of the blade this morning - next I will change profiles to get slightly less blade on the ice and better turning from Quad 1 to Quad 0 and change the pitch from +2 to +1 - I can send a picture later -but they are getting lower trying to tune them - had them profiled 2 times already

Edited by ReggieDunlop
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No need for that...I was making light of the situation.  To be fair, while I've been sharpening skates for almost 20 years, Nicholas can most likely answer Prosharp-specific questions better than me at this point, as he's put more guys in them.  I'm still learning it all, and doing our project will allow me (and everyone to see) how different profiles affect different skaters - somewhat of a database.

 

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1 hour ago, ReggieDunlop said:

 

Sorry Nicholas this was for Mr JR Boucicaut and he has answered (thank you) - not going into what's wrong with 10' stock - As I stated I was comfortable with a 8/12 combo but was slipping during cross overs - meaning not enough blade on the ice for my stride  - blades were sharp too.  I did remove the generic cushion heel lifts that I had under my insoles and it did feel better and no catching towards the back end of the blade this morning - next I will change profiles to get slightly less blade on the ice and better turning from Quad 1 to Quad 0 and change the pitch from +2 to +1 - I can send a picture later -but they are getting lower trying to tune them - had them profiled 2 times already

Be careful with how many times you profile....

Many "templates" have a forward pitch incorporated into them and if you keep profiling the same set of steel, and the shop doing the work doesn't account for such by adding a negative pitch, you are adding more forward pitch every single time you profile. I found this out myself the hard way a long time ago when I decided to profile my personal set of steel 5 times and I felt like I was sliding down the face of a cliff. This is something that many shops dont take into consideration as its nothing you can see by eye unless you know to look for it. 

Edited by Nicholas G
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22 minutes ago, Nicholas G said:

Be careful with how many times you profile....

Many "templates" have a forward pitch incorporated into them and if you keep profiling the same set of steel, and the shop doing the work doesn't account for such by adding a negative pitch, you are adding more forward pitch every single time you profile. I found this out myself the hard way a long time ago when I decided to profile my personal set of steel 5 times and I felt like I was sliding down the face of a cliff. This is something that many shops dont take into consideration as its nothing you can see by eye unless you know to look for it. 

What's the best solution to go from a Quad 1+2  to Quad 0 +1   - cross grind flat or just let it rip knowing it's mostly only going to hit the back end changing the 12/15 to a 11/13 at a +1 angle of attack  Front end of both quad is same 6/9

Edited by ReggieDunlop
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12 minutes ago, ReggieDunlop said:

What's the best solution to go from a Quad 1+2  to Quad 0 +1   - cross grind flat or just let it rip knowing it's mostly only going to hit the back end changing the 12/15 to a 11/13 at a +1 angle of attack  Front end of both quad is same 6/9

Just make sure to let the shop doing the work to adjust for the forward pitch thats already been applied in a previous profile. Usually, they adjust the profile on the ProSharp to account for such. 

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5 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

Be careful with how many times you profile....

Many "templates" have a forward pitch incorporated into them and if you keep profiling the same set of steel, and the shop doing the work doesn't account for such by adding a negative pitch, you are adding more forward pitch every single time you profile. I found this out myself the hard way a long time ago when I decided to profile my personal set of steel 5 times and I felt like I was sliding down the face of a cliff. This is something that many shops dont take into consideration as its nothing you can see by eye unless you know to look for it. 

Right.  Ryan from Prosharp explained to me how to do it.  Involves tricking the machine a little bit, but once it is set, it won't pitch it forward.

5 hours ago, ReggieDunlop said:

What's the best solution to go from a Quad 1+2  to Quad 0 +1   - cross grind flat or just let it rip knowing it's mostly only going to hit the back end changing the 12/15 to a 11/13 at a +1 angle of attack  Front end of both quad is same 6/9

 

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Just now, JR Boucicaut said:

Right.  Ryan from Prosharp explained to me how to do it.  Involves tricking the machine a little bit, but once it is set, it won't pitch it forward.

 

Ryan is the man. Mikko is awesome too!

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On 10/4/2018 at 9:20 AM, JR Boucicaut said:

What JR, er, Nicholas...LOL...said is indeed correct.  You need to start over again.  

Too many times I would see people want the exact same thing they had on their old (different model) skates, not realizing that the boot pitch and rake were completely different on the new ones.  I realize that in your case you've been trying to compensate for the pitch, but I don't understand why the Quads were pitched additionally, when they're already pitched forward.  This is where a heel lift would've come in handy, because your steel keeps getting lower and lower.  Curious to see a picture of the blade - can you provide that?

We're waiting for more templates from Prosharp before we can start our project, but someone like you would be a very good candidate.  

Update - I was able to get the steel profiled to a quad zero +1 and it has solved the problems - Removing the heel lifts I had under the insoles and changing profiles has stopped the catching and chattering while stopping or turning - (less steel on the ice with less pitch.)    I hope when you guys put your database together  has some good information to save people like me costly experimenting  to find what my muscle memory and stride have been trained with old gear.  Nobody tells you ProSharp quads are already pitched forward in every article I have read - thanks for that info  - I feel much more comfortable on my blades now.  I know shorter radius equals less speed but for me I can certainly take quicker steps to get up to speed.  Might have to start a survey to help with your investigations on player style, size, position, cut, length of blades, brand etc....Good luck and thanks again JR and Nicholas

Edited by ReggieDunlop
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Glad to hear. 

Do note that if you want to try new stuff, you’re welcome to the program. 

As it stands right now, we’ve ordered additional templates to get it up and running. 

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Hey guys, 

Any Mako II profile recommendations?

I know the skate has a bit more pitch/range of motion than my reeboks did.   No complaints with stock steel so I know any of the ProSharp profiles are going to improve everything, I thought if any aren't particularly good with that skate, I'd steer clear.

Thanks.

 

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On 10/8/2018 at 5:52 PM, JR Boucicaut said:

Glad to hear. 

Do note that if you want to try new stuff, you’re welcome to the program. 

As it stands right now, we’ve ordered additional templates to get it up and running. 

I'm assuming the program only applies to US residents? 

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17 hours ago, m3thods said:

I'm assuming the program only applies to US residents? 

As I explained to Prosharp, it's easier in the US because we have flat rate shipping and all that.  But as long as you're willing to pay for the shipping cost back and forth, we'll take steel from anywhere.

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On 10/11/2018 at 8:13 AM, BigDukeSix said:

Hey guys, 

Any Mako II profile recommendations?

I know the skate has a bit more pitch/range of motion than my reeboks did.   No complaints with stock steel so I know any of the ProSharp profiles are going to improve everything, I thought if any aren't particularly good with that skate, I'd steer clear.

Thanks.

 

It really depends on what you are looking to enhance or change. What works and doesn't for your specific skating style. There is no "best for everyone" profile. 

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