Thornton Gone!

[chippa13 1844]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Mcguire was saying that he talked to many GM's after the deal and most had no clue the trade was happening.  Why wouldn't Boston dangle him and see if they could get better return?

Ultimate Panic Move, Theo. I sure am glad I don't live in Boston and root for the Bruins. My season would be shot. Even Sather's Rangers PreNEWNHL waited til January to totally screw up. This Boston team didn't even make it out of November. Sad situation.

The Nucks GM on TSN last night sounded mighty surprised. I guess OC made first possible deal instead of shopping around your FRANCHISE guy. What an idiot. He probably could have 4 players for Joe!

The Bruins were right up against the salary cap. There was a limit to how much salary they could take in return for Thornton.

[DarkStar50 679]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Mcguire was saying that he talked to many GM's after the deal and most had no clue the trade was happening.  Why wouldn't Boston dangle him and see if they could get better return?

Ultimate Panic Move, Theo. I sure am glad I don't live in Boston and root for the Bruins. My season would be shot. Even Sather's Rangers PreNEWNHL waited til January to totally screw up. This Boston team didn't even make it out of November. Sad situation.

The Nucks GM on TSN last night sounded mighty surprised. I guess OC made first possible deal instead of shopping around your FRANCHISE guy. What an idiot. He probably could have 4 players for Joe!

The Bruins were right up against the salary cap. There was a limit to how much salary they could take in return for Thornton.

In other words, cap mismanagement.Sounds like a problem of the GM running the team not being able to understand Capology 101. OC should have read The Hockey News two weeks ago. They had an excellent article on the nuances(ohh, big word!) of working the cap. It is not $39K at the end of the year, its a day-to-day management situation of your available $$. Some GMs are going to be screwed before the season is over. OC is the first.

[chippa13 1844]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Mcguire was saying that he talked to many GM's after the deal and most had no clue the trade was happening.  Why wouldn't Boston dangle him and see if they could get better return?

Ultimate Panic Move, Theo. I sure am glad I don't live in Boston and root for the Bruins. My season would be shot. Even Sather's Rangers PreNEWNHL waited til January to totally screw up. This Boston team didn't even make it out of November. Sad situation.

The Nucks GM on TSN last night sounded mighty surprised. I guess OC made first possible deal instead of shopping around your FRANCHISE guy. What an idiot. He probably could have 4 players for Joe!

The Bruins were right up against the salary cap. There was a limit to how much salary they could take in return for Thornton.

In other words, cap mismanagement.Sounds like a problem of the GM running the team not being able to understand Capology 101. OC should have read The Hockey News two weeks ago. They had an excellent article on the nuances(ohh, big word!) of working the cap. It is not $39K at the end of the year, its a day-to-day management situation of your available $$. Some GMs are going to be screwed before the season is over. OC is the first.

O'Connell's problems with the cap first materialized when he was forced to field a Bruins team with two rookies in significant roles on the blueline. The other problem is thrusting Toivonen into the backup role in net. There should really be a veteran, steadying influence there to back up Raycroft. Look at the season Raycroft put together with Potvin behind him.

Other GM's are having troubles. In Vancouver, Green is only on the NHL roster for game days in order to save cap room. There are other stories about players being brought up to the big club based on their cap hit and not who is deserving. Some guys feel they are being left in the minors because the NHL salary of their 2-way deal is higher than guys who are getting the call.

[beaucoup_fish 0]

And I think you are being a bit harsh on Stuart and Boston. They still have a very good team with ZHAMNOV, Murrany, Samsanov, Bergeron etc,,,, and a great young blueline with Stuart, Tanabe, Boyton. Thorton's play is also questionable in the playoff situations as well. No I will not write off the Bruins and neither should you

I'll write them off then. :lol:

Zhamnov has been crap all year. Bergeron too, except for week one where he was pretty good (he needs to be way better)...Tanabe is a flop of a first rounder, and besides him, the Boston blueline isn't particularly solid. Boynton is probably the best of the bunch, and that doesn't say much...so basically, the only two guys that are really solid are Samsonov and Murray, and neither is the "hop on my back boys," kind of franchise player...

Please, if you don't know hockey, don't comment on it.

1) Zhamnov has only played 8 games after being out with a shoulder injury. It takes a little time to round out your game. Hard to be crap all year when you haven't played much of it.

2) With some of the injuries, Bergeron has been bounced around and played with just about everyone on the roster. Give him a set line and role for a few games and he'll be just fine.

3) Tanabe may not be a "take control of the game" kind of guy but he is a good defenseman with some nice puck movement and skating abilities. For the price of Scatchard, that was a good deal.

4) Boynton SHOULD be the best of the bunch but has been struggling, most likely because he missed training camp.

5) Boyes is quietly having a nice rookie season and is somewhere around the top 10 in rookie scoring.

8 games of the year is all year for him and he has sucked. Having come back from an injury isn't an excuse for sucking - sure, maybe give him a few games, but 8? Don't fool yourself, Zhamnov has never been a franchise player and at his age now, never will be.

Bergeron has bounced around, so what? If he's not producing, he's not producing and that's the bottom line. Don't make excuses for him, a player of his calibre should be far better, and it's about time - he's ready.

Tanabe: sure, for Scatchard, who cares, it's not a big price to pay. However, in case you have comprehension problems, I was rebutting the statement that someone else made about Tanabe being a part of the Bruins "great young blueline." Tanabe is a flop - he'll never reach the potential that he has, and if you agree that Boston has a "great young blueline," you don't know hockey.

Boynton: regardless of how he's playing now, he's the best D-man on the Bruins. That's not something to be excited about.

Boyes: never said anything about him. He's going to be good, and I wish the Leafs didn't deal him in the Nolan deal.

So, please my friend, if you don't know hockey, don't try to pretend that you do.

[chippa13 1844]

And I think you are being a bit harsh on Stuart and Boston. They still have a very good team with ZHAMNOV, Murrany, Samsanov, Bergeron etc,,,, and a great young blueline with Stuart, Tanabe, Boyton. Thorton's play is also questionable in the playoff situations as well. No I will not write off the Bruins and neither should you

I'll write them off then. :lol:

Zhamnov has been crap all year. Bergeron too, except for week one where he was pretty good (he needs to be way better)...Tanabe is a flop of a first rounder, and besides him, the Boston blueline isn't particularly solid. Boynton is probably the best of the bunch, and that doesn't say much...so basically, the only two guys that are really solid are Samsonov and Murray, and neither is the "hop on my back boys," kind of franchise player...

Please, if you don't know hockey, don't comment on it.

1) Zhamnov has only played 8 games after being out with a shoulder injury. It takes a little time to round out your game. Hard to be crap all year when you haven't played much of it.

2) With some of the injuries, Bergeron has been bounced around and played with just about everyone on the roster. Give him a set line and role for a few games and he'll be just fine.

3) Tanabe may not be a "take control of the game" kind of guy but he is a good defenseman with some nice puck movement and skating abilities. For the price of Scatchard, that was a good deal.

4) Boynton SHOULD be the best of the bunch but has been struggling, most likely because he missed training camp.

5) Boyes is quietly having a nice rookie season and is somewhere around the top 10 in rookie scoring.

8 games of the year is all year for him and he has sucked. Having come back from an injury isn't an excuse for sucking - sure, maybe give him a few games, but 8? Don't fool yourself, Zhamnov has never been a franchise player and at his age now, never will be.

Bergeron has bounced around, so what? If he's not producing, he's not producing and that's the bottom line. Don't make excuses for him, a player of his calibre should be far better, and it's about time - he's ready.

Tanabe: sure, for Scatchard, who cares, it's not a big price to pay. However, in case you have comprehension problems, I was rebutting the statement that someone else made about Tanabe being a part of the Bruins "great young blueline." Tanabe is a flop - he'll never reach the potential that he has, and if you agree that Boston has a "great young blueline," you don't know hockey.

Boynton: regardless of how he's playing now, he's the best D-man on the Bruins. That's not something to be excited about.

Boyes: never said anything about him. He's going to be good, and I wish the Leafs didn't deal him in the Nolan deal.

So, please my friend, if you don't know hockey, don't try to pretend that you do.

I'll start simple. Name me one player who puts up stats while being bounced around from line to line and role to role like Bergeron has been. Come on, let's here it. Bergeron has been the third line center one night, second line winger the next, and so on and so on. Any player who puts up big numbers usually does it with set linemates or at least a set linemate for an extended period of time.

Tanabe isn't a flop, he is a good player and the Bruins got him while giving up little. The Bruins got a top 4 defenseman for essentially nothing as they are stocked with Scatchard type guys.

On Boynton, I said he SHOULD be the best defenseman on the Bruins but after skipping camp he hasn't been. He has had a hard time adjusting and it is very rare for players to skip camp and have a great season.

Boyes was tossed in because I feel there is more to the team than just Samsonov and Murray.

[Eazy_b97 1]

so is hannon over rated or solid make up ur mind. how can u possibly compair rob blake to brad stuart. how does compairing blake and foote to hannon and PLUG struart have anything to do with the Thornton trade?

Since you went out of your way to compare Blake to Stuart lets take a look at what they have done.

First of all Brad Stuart has a career high of 9 goals in a season, and a high of only 39 points.

Now we look at Rob Blake a two time 20 goal scorer and over 600 points.  Aside from the points Rob Blake is an Olympic and a stanley cup champion.  Not to mention a Norris trophey winner. 

Brad Stuart will a) Never win a stanley cup B) never make an Olympic team c) and never be even considered for a Norris trophey d) Brad Stuart is a joke and Rob Blake will be in the Hall

And if you think the bruins still have talent and that they will rebound you must be crazy.  How hard do you think players like Glen Murray will try now that they have traded their franchise player.  The bruins organization has no desire to win and it will also be reflected in the players.  Murray Sasonov and Leetch will probably be ditched for plugs like Brad Stuart.

Why can't he be both. People regard him as a top 10 defenseman in Canada. He isn't, he was a good defenseman on a defense by comittee team. He's an ample number 3, Stuart is a number one man. Get it? He's a good player, but people expect he's some miracle man because he played for Team Canada. If he went to Boston, he would be their #3 behind Boynton and Leetch. Boynton is also Canadian, and is a better D than Hannan. He'll upgrade a teams defense, but he isn't a make or break guy like you make him out to be.

I did not compare Stuart to Blake. I am comparing situations. The Colorado situation was the same, except both D-men are better than their SJ counterparts.

Here's the Comparison:

Brad Stuart is to Scott Hannan, what Rob Blake is to Adam Foote. NOT Stuart is to Blake, what Foote is to Hannan.

Stuart - .41ppg in the past 4 years. +27 over that span

vs.

Hannan - .22ppg over the past 4 years. +18 in that span.

Blake - .65 ppg in Colorado w/ Foote, +53

Foote - .42ppg while in w/ Blake, +56

.2 ppg apart, relatively the same, +/- is different, but in Stuarts favour. It's comparing the Go to guy, to a shut-down guy. Except Foote is head and shoulders above Hannan and Blake is head and shoulders above Stuart. The comparison is still there. Your blake vs. Stuart argument is pointless because I never claimed he was in Blake's category as a player.

Unfortunately for Bruins fans, they weren't trying before this happened. This can't make them worse. The reason Thorntons out, is because he was playing heartless for them. They likely will clean house at the deadline. The Bruins organization dug their own ditch with his contract in the offseason and all of the problems it caused. I am not disputing that, however a superstar forward had lost all desire to play there. Do you sit it out and wait for him to leave via free agency? Unless something dramatic happened, he wouldn't have just clicked into "wanting to play" mode.

If Brad Stuart is a plug, can you explain his better stats and +/- compared to Hannan, the stud defenseman you are sp fond of?

Now tell me who doesn't know their hockey?

[Cheechoo 0]

Seems like most people here think the Sharks got the better deal, but I'm not so sure. San Jose entered the season with their previously successful lineup pretty much in tact and went undeafeated in the pre-season. So, given the new rules, they thought they were going to reach the Stanley Cup finals in cruise control. Most of the players, including Sturm and Stuart, played accordingly. Both are a lot better than they've been playing, and Primeau had a career year last year and has been one of the few players playing his heart out this season. If all three play up to their potential in Boston, the Bruins will have made the better deal. Sure, Thornton is a great player, but he still only has two legs and and two arms, so the Sharks have two spots to fill with minor leaguers and/or players who are more familiar with the press box than the ice (Dimitrakos, Erhoff).

[Cheechoo 0]

so is hannon over rated or solid make up ur mind. how can u possibly compair rob blake to brad stuart. how does compairing blake and foote to hannon and PLUG struart have anything to do with the Thornton trade?

Since you went out of your way to compare Blake to Stuart lets take a look at what they have done.

First of all Brad Stuart has a career high of 9 goals in a season, and a high of only 39 points.

Now we look at Rob Blake a two time 20 goal scorer and over 600 points.  Aside from the points Rob Blake is an Olympic and a stanley cup champion.  Not to mention a Norris trophey winner. 

Brad Stuart will a) Never win a stanley cup B) never make an Olympic team c) and never be even considered for a Norris trophey d) Brad Stuart is a joke and Rob Blake will be in the Hall

And if you think the bruins still have talent and that they will rebound you must be crazy.  How hard do you think players like Glen Murray will try now that they have traded their franchise player.  The bruins organization has no desire to win and it will also be reflected in the players.  Murray Sasonov and Leetch will probably be ditched for plugs like Brad Stuart.

Why can't he be both. People regard him as a top 10 defenseman in Canada. He isn't, he was a good defenseman on a defense by comittee team. He's an ample number 3, Stuart is a number one man. Get it? He's a good player, but people expect he's some miracle man because he played for Team Canada. If he went to Boston, he would be their #3 behind Boynton and Leetch. Boynton is also Canadian, and is a better D than Hannan. He'll upgrade a teams defense, but he isn't a make or break guy like you make him out to be.

I did not compare Stuart to Blake. I am comparing situations. The Colorado situation was the same, except both D-men are better than their SJ counterparts.

Here's the Comparison:

Brad Stuart is to Scott Hannan, what Rob Blake is to Adam Foote. NOT Stuart is to Blake, what Foote is to Hannan.

Stuart - .41ppg in the past 4 years. +27 over that span

vs.

Hannan - .22ppg over the past 4 years. +18 in that span.

Blake - .65 ppg in Colorado w/ Foote, +53

Foote - .42ppg while in w/ Blake, +56

.2 ppg apart, relatively the same, +/- is different, but in Stuarts favour. It's comparing the Go to guy, to a shut-down guy. Except Foote is head and shoulders above Hannan and Blake is head and shoulders above Stuart. The comparison is still there. Your blake vs. Stuart argument is pointless because I never claimed he was in Blake's category as a player.

Unfortunately for Bruins fans, they weren't trying before this happened. This can't make them worse. The reason Thorntons out, is because he was playing heartless for them. They likely will clean house at the deadline. The Bruins organization dug their own ditch with his contract in the offseason and all of the problems it caused. I am not disputing that, however a superstar forward had lost all desire to play there. Do you sit it out and wait for him to leave via free agency? Unless something dramatic happened, he wouldn't have just clicked into "wanting to play" mode.

If Brad Stuart is a plug, can you explain his better stats and +/- compared to Hannan, the stud defenseman you are sp fond of?

Now tell me who doesn't know their hockey?

Great analysis Eazy! One thing to add to your argument: I'm not sure if it's changed by now, but last week Hannan had the worst +/- rating of ANY defenseman in the league! You're right, he's a shut-down defenseman who was very effective in his role in the past. Problem is, the new rules don't fit traditional shut-down guys very well. As someone who has watched both Stuart and Hannan play pretty much every game for the last few seasons, I would definitely have preferred to see Hannan go rather than Stuart.

[mack 44]

SJ won easily because of the age-old 'rule' that the team who gets the best player wins.

[hip check 0]

Stuart may still develop into a solid defenseman. If Boston can keep him around for a few years then this might pan out for them. I'm not saying he'll be a player of Thornton's calibre (whatever that is this year - what have you done for me lately, Joe??) but he could help anchor the blue line for them.

[Jason Harris 31]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Mcguire was saying that he talked to many GM's after the deal and most had no clue the trade was happening.  Why wouldn't Boston dangle him and see if they could get better return?

Ultimate Panic Move, Theo. I sure am glad I don't live in Boston and root for the Bruins. My season would be shot. Even Sather's Rangers PreNEWNHL waited til January to totally screw up. This Boston team didn't even make it out of November. Sad situation.

The Nucks GM on TSN last night sounded mighty surprised. I guess OC made first possible deal instead of shopping around your FRANCHISE guy. What an idiot. He probably could have 4 players for Joe!

The Bruins were right up against the salary cap. There was a limit to how much salary they could take in return for Thornton.

I don't think that's accurate, Chippa. I read that they had about $3-$4M coming into the season, and Tanabe's salary was about $900K less than Scatchard's. If that information is correct, they had plenty of room.

I view this as a "shake-up" trade. But, in that case, don't trade your top player for three lesser players; trade your third best player for two lesser players.

[Jason Harris 31]

On that note, its nice to see my harsh words for the pennie pinching Jacobs during the lockout is coming to light again

I've said it before, but my fervent wish is for George Steinbrenner to pass away blissfully in his sleep and then Jacobs, a Buffalo resident, buys the Yankees.

Can you imagine the look on Yankees' fans when Sinden, in his role as interim GM, tells them the payroll will be cut to $80M?

Priceless. :P

[stickler012 0]

If I were Boston, I would have probably made this trade. Although Thornton is a great player, these three add great depth to the team. Stuart and Sturm are both solid if they play consistent, and if Primeau comes around, who knows, he could turn out like his brother. Keith si my favorite player, and even though he wasn't a top line forward for the wings, he's a great player in Philly. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[whbd18 0]

Well, the new Boston guys are sure stepping up in the first

Ya,I think the Bruins are better off without Thorton.The new guys are playing great against Ottawa.

[beaucoup_fish 0]

Well, the new Boston guys are sure stepping up in the first

Ya,I think the Bruins are better off without Thorton.The new guys are playing great against Ottawa.

I dunno if one good game makes this trade a winner for Boston...

Chippa, howabout Lindros? He's bounced around a few different lines, and he does ok for himself. Regardless of his linemate situation, he should be producing - a playmaker like Bergeron is supposed to make those around him better. Dump say, Forsberg on anyone's line and he's liable to do good, as are his linemates...I'm not saying Bergeron is Forsberg, but c'mon, the kid has talent he needs to use...

[hockechamp14 0]

1 game doesn't make the trade good. But it will shut me up for quite a while since they beat the #1 team in the league.

[beaucoup_fish 0]

1 game doesn't make the trade good. But it will shut me up for quite a while since they beat the #1 team in the league.

They didn't merely beat them, the shut them out for cryin' out loud. With their backup goalie! That's just...bizarre.

[hockechamp14 0]

1 game doesn't make the trade good. But it will shut me up for quite a while since they beat the #1 team in the league.

They didn't merely beat them, the shut them out for cryin' out loud. With their backup goalie! That's just...bizarre.

Well, I wouldn't exactly consider toivenen as thier "back-up" anymore. He's been playing phenominally this year ever since the second game he played. Can anyone say "bye-bye Razor?"

If we keep seeing these kind of results, I will be totally uncritical of this trade. Although I am excited of what could be coming after beating Ottawa. :D

[beaucoup_fish 0]

1 game doesn't make the trade good. But it will shut me up for quite a while since they beat the #1 team in the league.

They didn't merely beat them, the shut them out for cryin' out loud. With their backup goalie! That's just...bizarre.

Well, I wouldn't exactly consider toivenen as thier "back-up" anymore. He's been playing phenominally this year ever since the second game he played. Can anyone say "bye-bye Razor?"

If we keep seeing these kind of results, I will be totally uncritical of this trade. Although I am excited of what could be coming after beating Ottawa.

Another losing streak? :P

Yeah, Toivanen has been mostly solid...the Finnish goalie factory drops another...

[Cheechoo 0]

Wow, it sure didn't take long to change some of your guy's minds about this trade. Remember though, players usually do well in their first game after a trade. Now let's see if Thornton can deliver for the Sharks tomorrow <_<

[beaucoup_fish 0]

Wow, it sure didn't take long to change some of your guy's minds about this trade. Remember though, players usually do well in their first game after a trade. Now let's see if Thornton can deliver for the Sharks tomorrow <_<

Let's hope not! My buddy has him in the pool. Haha.

[saba 0]

here here finally someone who knows what their talking about!! i tihnk saba and eazy_b97 should stop posting until they know what their talking about

Looks like we do know what were talking about! ASS

[Eazy_b97 1]

I'm just waiting response. I'm pretty sure I saw a post from him saying which NHLers he's been on the ice with.

[biff44 0]

There was one big difference in that game. Boston skated all-out for 3 full periods.

I think the decision boils down to one simple fact, sometimes (not always) Thornton plays lazy. He sits behind the net or on the half boards trying to make the pass, he seldom crashes the net or pay the price to stay in front of the crease. His teammates see that and think "why should I kill myself out there?".

Now that slowjoe is gone, and the fear of being sent-down is fresh in these players minds, that way of thinking has been crushed by management.

Was joe talented...sure. Was he bringing that talent to every game and every shift...no way.

Another big factor was that there were more experienced D out there sweeping the rebounds away. Boston's goalies are more than up to the task if there are few rebound shots to deal with, and most of the shots are coming from poor angles at the periphery.

I am looking forward (for a change) to watching the next game. Heck, if this keeps up I might even consider buying a season ticket next year (had 1/3 of the games on 3 season tickets for 5 years, but dropped it this year due to the boring play).

[chippa13 1844]

Don't read too much into game one of the Sturm era in Boston. Remember, after any big shakeup a team will usually put on a spirited effort in the first game or two. Let's wait a little while before anyone starts crowning O'Connell a genius, something I am pretty sure he is not.

As for the Toivonen comments, he has been just as guilty of the odd softie as Raycroft has been. Should Raycroft be having a better season? Yes. But I think it's just a little early to write him off as a flash in the pan and send him packing in favor of Toivonen. Does the name Bill Ranford ring a bell?