Disappointment in D1's

[dgaronzik 1]

In the past 3.5 years Ive had/tried 5 different pairs of Mission skates. They were the first company I chose when I switched from ice to roller after college. Ive had Vi's, RPM's, VS's, D1C's and I just tried Purefly's. I had splitting problems with my VS's but they never got any worse then when I first noticed it, my Vi's are still in service as my reffing skate and my D1C's are by far the best skate Ive ever skated in even though I wish mission would ditch the DNA lacing system and use a better chassis. But Im definetly a supporter again after spending a year on Vapor XV's and after seeing how much support Justin puts into the community and also seeing how active Mission is with the community in general. They definetly stand by their product.

edit - monoclub - I weigh 190 and have no problems whatsoever with the support of the 04 D1C, its a pain to get tight because of the lacing system but that doesnt mean I cant get them tight around my foot.

[Justin 1933 134]

Wow...I just got back from Montreal and saw this thread....First off, for all of you with outsole failures: WE WILL REPLACE THEM FOR YOU!!! Call our customer service department and we will take care of it (714-556-8856). We understand there was a problem and have since fixed it. We are switching to a new outsole that is being used on our ice hockey skates (were we have no outsole issues).

As for the overall quality of our products, we are constantly trying to improve the construction and durability of them. We test and test and test some more, but sometimes things happen that cannot be forseen. I believe we have the best customer service in the industry, and we stand behind our products. When was the last time a product we made that had a manufacturer's defect was not replaced? Never!

Now I know what Easton feels like...( the market in leader sells more products, therefore their sticks/our skates have a higher chance for problems)....

Some other notes from the above posts:

1. D-1 Chassis Thickness - Yes are chassis is thicker in some areas. Why? Durability and to prevent denting...We are able to angle our chassis, so that they are still lighter than the competition

2. Problems in the past - We did have our growing pains in the past. I understand if you bought something in the past and had issues. We apologize. Someday, we hope that you will give us a chance to prove we have come a long way and are the leaders in the market for a reason.

3. D-1 Stiffness rating - That doesn't exsist...We stopped putting stiffness rating on the skates because it doesn't apply to DNA skates. However, the internals of a D-1 are as stiff as a VSI.

4. Materials - We are using the same, if not better (lighter and stronger materials) materials than ever before. We put more money into our boots, because of issues in the past.

5.If a skate lacks stiffness it will lack in support - That is just wrong...See Supplefit/Graf, etc...Support needs to be in specific area...Just because a skate is a brick, doesn't make it a good skate...Fit is more important...

Sorry to be long winded, but I wanted to answer the questions put forth.

If anyone has any problems, comments, concerns, etc. please feel free to send me an e-mail directly at: justinh@missionhockey.com.

Thanks,

Justin

[chrisg19 5]

Bane - What wheel setup do you use on the rockers? I just put rockers on my D-1's, and had to dremel the soles to get the 76 mm wheel to fit. I use all 76's btw.

Monoclub - What size are the D1c's, I know someone who might be interested.

Thanks,

chris

[MDE3 0]

If anyone can..I can appreciate your long winded reply... :D

We started using Missions about 1996 and by the end of the year and through 1997 had the whole of my son's team wearing them as well as most of my clinic kids.(no sponsorship either..just preference) We started experiencing problems in late 1997, and that continued through several skates (at least 3 generations of skates with most of the kids)..with soles coming loose from the boot, calf protector ripping off (the kids we had started taping their lower shin pads around the calf protector, so the stiching would fail after a while), lacing reinforcement around the eylets ripping off....The dealer and Mission was good enough to help us out with some of the problems, but often we could not wait for the replacements and needed to find other alternatives...often last season's ice skate with a conversion.

Some of the same problems occurred with these...it seems that the sweat / heat generated from using ice hockey style boots in inline applications had some effect on the adhesives used beyond the design criteria. Also the original skates with PVC plastic soles were too soft for inline for heavier players..with the aluminum chassis mounting plates causing pressure points on the feet of the skater when the skate warmed up, so the first manufacturers to use carbon reinforced outsoles were one of my choices...Mission did follow this soon.

As I stated I cannot comment on your current products, and only offer this anecdotal material as an example of how customers are lost. Good luck and I am sure your products have improved as your continued strength in the industry would indicate.

[JR Boucicaut 3759]

MDE3 -

Mission was the first to use a full composite outsole on their skates. Bauer used carbon in their outsoles, however it was only in the middle of the outsole, and the ends were plastic.

[MDE3 0]

Heh heh :D ....not quite.....Hockey Pro's from K2(about $400 retail at the time...not long after you could buy them for a song) were the first I believe..and believe me I was looking for them(25 hours a week on skates will do that) cc 1995/1996..... full carbon sole grid, and the most comfortable skate I ever wore...adjustable lateral chassis pitch, aluminum chassis, gel filled boot, soft flex, well protected....and about 5 lbs each lol. Got extra weight training as well as comfort....and all the aesthetic appeal of your mother's army boots....

Mission came out with them in the summer of 1997 I think on the VSI and Team boots. I also used CCM 852's converted for the same reasons.

[monoclub 5]

Firstly I must say cheers to Justin for wading into all of this. And for affirming the guranteed replacement policy, I have seen it in action and it is impressive.

It is interesting to read the contradictions in here, must make it difficult for you guys to know what features to continue with, I for one like the DNA lacing system, I find it easier to use and my skates get tight (though the change in laces works alot better).

5.If a skate lacks stiffness it will lack in support - That is just wrong...See Supplefit/Graf, etc...Support needs to be in specific area...Just because a skate is a brick, doesn't make it a good skate...Fit is more important...

Fit and support have always been a compromise and from my experience Supplefit proves it still hasn't been resolved - I feel the skate lacking in support, and infact at a certain point it collapses and I end up on my ass! Supplefit is about fit - and for this it works wonderfully, but just because you argue that "its stiff in the right places" doesn't mean that its as effective as "stiff all the way through the boot" for support.

In this same thread guys have been talking about carbon outsoles for a reason - they are stiffer and therefore offer better control and response through direct energy transfer.

Soft boot recreational skates using the exoskeletal shell that was introduced by K2 back in the day demonstrate the argument perfectly. Supplefit with it's "stiffness where it's needed" begs the question of what happens when there is pressure and energy being pushed through a boot that doesn't have a uniform stiffness from top to bottom? It collapses in the weak spots!!! Why do stiffness ratings not apply to DNA skates? Because they lack a uniform stiffness. The internals of a D1 may be as stiff as a VSi - but only in places, not from top to bottom.

Yours

Geoff

[Bane 1]

Bane - What wheel setup do you use on the rockers? I just put rockers on my D-1's, and had to dremel the soles to get the 76 mm wheel to fit. I use all 76's btw.

Monoclub - What size are the D1c's, I know someone who might be interested.

Thanks,

chris

I use the 10' radius setup. 76 at the toe, then 72, 76, and 76 at the heel. This eliminated the grinding problems I had and I don't notice much difference between this setup and all 76 (9ft radius setup).

[GekigangarIII 0]

Why do stiffness ratings not apply to DNA skates? Because they lack a uniform stiffness. The internals of a D1 may be as stiff as a VSi - but only in places, not from top to bottom.

But this has always been true for mission skates. Even the old V series used stiffness ratings that were for the upper and lower... ie 7-5 was 7 stiffness in the upper and 5 stiffness in the lower. It still holds for mission's skates today... Though some would argue that the lacing system has taken away some of that percieved stiffness from the lower.

Myself, I don't like the dna lacing system because it rises off the boot, exposed to pucks, sticks and everything else that will break it off... if you do break a dna eyelet it's nearly impossible to replace because it's sewn onto the boot. I much prefer traditional eyelets... I think the type M was the last great boot mission built, but it was marred by the vibe...

At this point I think the dna system is "riding the storm" like the vibe did.. they know alot of people don't like it, but they've vested alot of research, money and promotion into the system and it's too late to go back. Kind of a pride war... ;)

[monoclub 5]

But this has always been true for mission skates. Even the old V series used stiffness ratings that were for the upper and lower... ie 7-5 was 7 stiffness in the upper and 5 stiffness in the lower. It still holds for mission's skates today...

I believe Missions "old" stiffness ratings reffered to "Upper" meaning the heel to cuff (back end of the skate) and "lower" meaning the vamp area (top of the foot).

These ratings do not hold for todays boots, as Justin said, because it's only "stiff" in certain places NOT all the way through (funny how something that was supposed to be important for so many years seems no longer to be so).

My problem with the "Supplefit" concept is the lack of uniform support from the heel to the cuff where most support is required (as attested to by missions traditional stiffness ratings being higher for this area of the boot as it has alot more pressure and demand placed on it). I find that when pressure is applied to the boot it "gives" in the weak spots where the "stiffness" has been downgraded in the interests of comfort.

[Bane 1]

Why do stiffness ratings not apply to DNA skates? Because they lack a uniform stiffness. The internals of a D1 may be as stiff as a VSi - but only in places, not from top to bottom.

But this has always been true for mission skates. Even the old V series used stiffness ratings that were for the upper and lower... ie 7-5 was 7 stiffness in the upper and 5 stiffness in the lower. It still holds for mission's skates today... Though some would argue that the lacing system has taken away some of that percieved stiffness from the lower.

Myself, I don't like the dna lacing system because it rises off the boot, exposed to pucks, sticks and everything else that will break it off... if you do break a dna eyelet it's nearly impossible to replace because it's sewn onto the boot. I much prefer traditional eyelets... I think the type M was the last great boot mission built, but it was marred by the vibe...

At this point I think the dna system is "riding the storm" like the vibe did.. they know alot of people don't like it, but they've vested alot of research, money and promotion into the system and it's too late to go back. Kind of a pride war... ;)

I have to disagree... My D1's are stiff and offer a lot of support. The only complaint I have is that after I baked them, the eyelets on the ankles almost meet when I get them as tight as I like them. I like the DNA system, mainly due to the comfort of the system. I would be interested inhearing from anyone that has actually ahd problems with the eyelets coming off.

[Vishi05 0]

Well.. even more problems for me. The bottom of my boot has gone soft and if you push on the chassis it folds... that and the sole is ripping off the bottom of my skate.

I'm going down to the Mission factory on Tuesday so maybe I'll see you there Justin... haha.

[stevoc 0]

I have a question for Justin: I have heard that the d-limiteds are somewhat of a prototype for the d1c's...having the same improvements. Is this true?

Also. what checks does mission go through to check the wheels on their new skates? My d-limiteds came with the standard dynasty wheels, but they click like there's no tomorrow. I can actually push on either side of the wheels and watch the bearings pop in and out of the hub. I have had this problem with many labeda wheels and different spacers on the market.

Do you have any commendation on a specific type of spacer that seems to work best with these wheels for the d-limiteds? I asked a similar ? at the labeda site, but received no answer.

Thanks

[Justin 1933 134]

DNA Lacing - The above posts are some of the first times I have heard anything negative. You definitely cannot compare this to vibe...What are the negaitves of the DNA? I would love to hear so that we can make improvements.

Stiffness Ratings - These have been gone since the DNA skates were completed. We have not changed internals (i.e. down-specing) on the skates.

SUPPLE FIT - We do not use Supple-Fit internals on our roller boots (except for the D-Limited, and these are actually stiffer than Pure-Fly). The DNA Series of boots was based on the VSI.

Wheels - We check the wheels at the factory, but don't actually skate them. If thre are problems with wheels, the manufacture should take care of it. We have moved to Factory wheels next year, and believe their quality is the best in the industry.

I hope this helps.

Justin

[GekigangarIII 0]

DNA Lacing - The above posts are some of the first times I have heard anything negative. You definitely cannot compare this to vibe...What are the negaitves of the DNA? I would love to hear so that we can make improvements.

Myself personally, I don't like the DNA lacing system because it doesn't allow any room for "tight" and "loose" spots when you lace. You can slip your foot in the dna boot and literally pull on the laces at the top and it will tighten the entire skate uniformly, which in a perfect world is fine. But I don't know anyone that tightens their laces the same throughout the boot. Most people tie loose in the toe, tight in the midfoot and looser at the top, the dna system doesn't allow for that... I think this is why people give complaints of it "never being tight enough" or not feeling enough support in the lowers. Because they can never find a happy medium.

[ajd91187 0]

i've had my old vsi's for about 2 years now, no problems except for my eyelets rusted off... sounds like its only with the new skates then.

[dgaronzik 1]

My problem with the DNA has more to do with the long term durability of the system then the tightness of my skates (get to that at the end). Im skeptical, having seen what durability this type of lacing system leads to in sneakers, that the materials will actually hold up under a year, two years, of use. Im looking for a skate that will last me more then a year and lately, I havent been able to find that. I guess the jury is still out on that, but my question is have there been warranty claims dealing with this?

The tightness issue - as geki said, the big issue is finding the happy medium. Ive been able to find it lately but its been a big hit or miss since I got my D1C's. What Id like to see to address that issue is either different laces or some type of grip or other sticky material on the inside of the DNA strands that better holds the laces. Even making wax laces standard if that helps the slippage issue.

[ExitTwoEighty 7]

I just called hockeygiant and they're trying to see if they can "repair" the skate. Hopefully it's just not a pile of superglue. What's the process that people go through to repair the skate?

[steve66 45]

My problem with the DNA has more to do with the long term durability of the system then the tightness of my skates (get to that at the end). Im skeptical, having seen what durability this type of lacing system leads to in sneakers, that the materials will actually hold up under a year, two years, of use. Im looking for a skate that will last me more then a year and lately, I havent been able to find that. I guess the jury is still out on that, but my question is have there been warranty claims dealing with this?

The tightness issue - as geki said, the big issue is finding the happy medium. Ive been able to find it lately but its been a big hit or miss since I got my D1C's. What Id like to see to address that issue is either different laces or some type of grip or other sticky material on the inside of the DNA strands that better holds the laces. Even making wax laces standard if that helps the slippage issue.

would something as simple as regular shaped laces help in the DNA lace loops?

It seems that there needs to be something to increase the resistance to hold them in place?

[Vishi05 0]

Went down to the Mission factory today and I came home with a brand new pair of D1c's. Thank you very much for your help Justin, the good customer service from everyone at Mission is very much appreciated.

[Justin 1933 134]

Our pleasure. Glad to hear you were taken care of.

Justin

[ExitTwoEighty 7]

Wow my friend busted his D1c's the same way and he went to the store that he purchased his skates from and they told him 3 weeks. He called mission to talk to someone, they called back the store that he purchased it from and told them to give him another pair of skates same day. Awesome service by mission.

Unforunately I can't say the same for myself, I mailed my skates back to hockeygiant and it's been 5 weeks. Still nothing when i ask them.

[hockey22 0]

does anybody know where i can find size 10 mission D-Limited skates?

like on an online site or a person that i could buy them from?

[hockey22 0]

justin, my friends D1's chassi was dented in a game, would he be able to send them back and get a new pair?

or what would he have to do to get a new pair?

[stevoc 0]

Why do stiffness ratings not apply to DNA skates? Because they lack a uniform stiffness. The internals of a D1 may be as stiff as a VSi - but only in places, not from top to bottom.

But this has always been true for mission skates. Even the old V series used stiffness ratings that were for the upper and lower... ie 7-5 was 7 stiffness in the upper and 5 stiffness in the lower. It still holds for mission's skates today... Though some would argue that the lacing system has taken away some of that percieved stiffness from the lower.

I have to disagree... My D1's are stiff and offer a lot of support.

I agree with bane on this one. My d-limiteds are way more stiff at the top around the ankle than my VS's which have a 6-5 stiffness rating. I have even baked the d-limiteds once and they are stil much stiffer.