WARNING

[Reaper 0]

Sticks are no different, watch them put punps on helmets and sell them 300$... :lol:

I can't wait until they come out with a Reebok Pump Stick with variable flex...lol ;)

[DarkStar50 679]

Bottom line is NOT ALL COMPANIES MAKE A KILLING. Louisville hockey: they didn't make a killing. They were killed just as recently as last summer. CCM: just bought within last 15 months by RBK. If CCM was "killing" and those who know, know they had been dying a slow death for a long time, why were they sold? Because they weren't making a KILLING. NBH: Killing? 9.whatever % is not KILLING. Lets see who else in the hockey business is making a killing: Hespeler? Christian? Winnwell? John Brown Goal? Mission/Itech? HMM, wonder why Mission bought Itech if Mission was killing? Ok, now that we have gotten that out of the way: the hockey business is not half of what most of you think it must be. Every year the vendors claw and fight for shelf space while giving dealers buying programs that require 40 pair of top end skates;3 dozen OPS; 60 helmets and the privilege of being exclusive with the product as far as that gets you to the next closest LHS, the LHS put their lives on the line to make a few bucks at the end of the year and sharpen as many skates as possible because that is the only 100% profit in the hockey business(after you have sharpened 2000 pair @ $5 a pair- do the math fellas to figure out how much that Blackstone really costs before it makes $), the www.screwtheLHS.com buys up all the closeout product at dirt cheap and kills LHS still trying to get a $ back on what he paid full wholesale for, and the consumer thinks we owe them a brand new OPS because this one @$200 broke(memo- ALL HOCKEY STICKS BREAK)and the price of a helmet is too high. Pardon me, but the Emergency Room Neurosurgeon for little Johnny into the boards headfirst with his *^%* helmet will cost you more than the time and $ it took to buy the right helmet(Sorry, different rant). The bottom line is this is a business, not a charity event. Its not cheap to play hockey, never was, never will be. Prices? Going up, but so is everything else. Nobody needs One90PumpSynergyTacks for their game but if you feel you have to have what the pros wear, be prepared to pay the professional price.

[DarkStar50 679]

And now I'm off to see Easton 2006 and find out what booking program they are trying to jam down my throat. Its a viscious cycle: book it, stock it, sell it, start all over again! I love the hockey business!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Reaper 0]

Nobody needs One90PumpSynergyTacks for their game but if you feel you have to have what the pros wear, be prepared to pay the professional price.

This is the kind of post that makes me think we need to have a thumbs up smiley. ;)

[beaucoup_fish 0]

Bottom line is NOT ALL COMPANIES MAKE A KILLING. Louisville hockey: they didn't make a killing. They were killed just as recently as last summer. CCM: just bought within last 15 months by RBK. If CCM was "killing" and those who know, know they had been dying a slow death  for a long time, why were they sold? Because they weren't making a KILLING. NBH: Killing? 9.whatever % is not KILLING. Lets see who else in the hockey business is making a killing: Hespeler? Christian? Winnwell? John Brown Goal? Mission/Itech? HMM, wonder why Mission bought Itech if Mission was killing? Ok, now that we have gotten that out of the way: the hockey business is not half of what most of you think it must be. Every year the vendors claw and fight for shelf space while giving dealers buying programs that require 40 pair of top end skates;3 dozen OPS; 60 helmets and the privilege of being exclusive with the product as far as that gets you to the next closest LHS, the LHS put their lives on the line to make a few bucks at the end of the year and sharpen as many skates as possible because that is the only 100% profit in the hockey business(after you  have sharpened 2000 pair @ $5 a pair- do the math fellas to figure out how much that Blackstone really costs before it makes $), the www.screwtheLHS.com buys up all the closeout product at dirt cheap and kills LHS still trying to get a $ back on what he paid full wholesale for, and the consumer thinks  we owe them a brand new OPS because this one @$200 broke(memo- ALL HOCKEY STICKS BREAK)and the price of a helmet is too high. Pardon me, but the Emergency Room Neurosurgeon for little Johnny into the boards headfirst with his *^%* helmet will cost you more than the time and $ it took to buy the right helmet(Sorry, different rant). The bottom line is this is a business, not a charity event. Its not cheap to play hockey, never was, never will be. Prices? Going up, but so is everything else. Nobody needs One90PumpSynergyTacks for their game but if you feel you have to have what the pros wear, be prepared to pay the professional price.

I think the general sentiment is that for $200, an OPS should last more than 20 minutes. I believe that people that use OPSes are upset at the fact that it costs $200 to buy one, but way less than $200 to make one, let alone one that lasts longer than a $25 wood stick. If they lasted say, eight times longer than a woodstick and gave you eight times the better shot (let's face it, OPSes make zero difference to 99% of players), then maybe it'd be worth eight times the money. It's a question of value, and if you ask me, there is NO value in an OPS, at least not one that costs $200.

Of course, not everyone has inside knowledge of the hockey business and the many channels that a product goes thru to get from factory to retailer, but no one said that being in hockey retail was easy.

Also, online stores stealing the LHS's business and undercutting them is irrelevant to this discussion. If the LHS really wanted to, they could also set up a business model whereby they purchase closeouts to sell off.

From the sounds of it, you don't like dealing with warranty claims even though they don't come out of your own pocket (whether your in the retail side or manufacturing side, I don't know) - you might as well hang a sign in your front window that says "ALL STICKS BREAK. WE DO NOT WANT TO FILE CLAIMS FOR YOUR $200 OPS THAT YOU PAID HARD EARNED MONEY FOR WHICH BROKE AFTER 30 MINUTES OF ICE TIME. NEXT TIME, BUY A WOOD STICK, SUCKER. WE DO NOT VALUE YOUR BUSINESS. THANK YOU AND HAVE A CRAP DAY."

By the by, isn't the professional price $0? I've never heard of any pros paying for their own gear.

EDIT: sounds like you're in the retail end. Good luck with Easton.

[jimmy 194]

Jimmy,

Which OPS brands are dead in your shop? Just curious. How many pieces are you sitting on? Mainly Sr, Int, or Jr?

Every booking season the temptation is easy to order them all. Next time, don't!

Believe me, I do not book everything. That's suicide.

No stick is really dead yet, but as soon as the new ones are out here in a few months, all old models in stock become an instant loss. It's mostly Sr models I get stuck with, the teens won't touch them as soon as a new model comes out, and teens are the biggest customers. The un-enforced slashing keeps them coming back.

[jimmy 194]

The labour savings is huge, definitely.  I don't know what margins are like in hockey retail, but I'm assuming that the manufacturer's markup to the retailer is quite big as well...assuming 100% markup (though I gather manufacturer to retailer markup is more than this) thru both layers and a $200 final retail price, that's still huge profit.

Typical retail margin is 40. So, start at $200 USD and then work your way backwards.

What retail business are you talking about?? No way 40% margin on hockey equipment! With all the internet garage sites out there, you have to stay competitive and 40% doesn't cut it. If I pay $125 for a high end stick (plus shipping, loan interest), I'm lucky if I can sell it for $169.

[Rustybender 0]

I think we are all missing the real point of this thread:

Were any of the stolen sticks heel curve, square toe, leftys with a 90 flex? And, what price do you think they would be selling for?

[teamriot38 0]

what do you need with sticks? You've got 400 woodies in your basement!

[Jason Harris 31]

I believe that people that use OPSes are upset at the fact that it costs $200 to buy one, but way less than $200 to make one, let alone one that lasts longer than a $25 wood stick.  If they lasted say, eight times longer than a woodstick and gave you eight times the better shot (let's face it, OPSes make zero difference to 99% of players), then maybe it'd be worth eight times the money.  It's a question of value, and if you ask me, there is NO value in an OPS, at least not one that costs $200.

Most companies use a formula to derive their MSRP's. Whether that is 2X COGS (Cost of Goods Sold), 2.5X GOGS, 3X COGS, 3.5 COGS, 4X COGS or whatever, they are roughly using the same formula. Regardless whether a product cost them $10, $25, $50 or $100, they are using a formula to derive an MSRP that gives them the same percentage profit.

For arguments sake, let's use 5X COGS, which I'm quite confident is WAY too high. If the product COGS is $5, the MSRP becomes $25; if the product COGS is $40, the MSRP becomes $200.

Maybe they add profit to some products that they believe the market will bear, but, based on my experience, it is more likely to be the other way around -- taking less profit and lowering the MSRP to a price the market will bear.

Also, online stores stealing the LHS's business and undercutting them is irrelevant to this discussion.  If the LHS really wanted to, they could also set up a business model whereby they purchase closeouts to sell off.

It's relevant that they stay in business if you want to get your skates sharpened just before the game.... :)

I think most of them are willing to buy closeouts, but not everyone is given first dibs.

From the sounds of it, you don't like dealing with warranty claims (whether your in the retail side or manufacturing side, I don't know) - you might as well hang a sign in your front window that says "ALL STICKS BREAK.  WE DO NOT WANT TO FILE CLAIMS FOR YOUR $200 OPS THAT YOU PAID HARD EARNED MONEY FOR WHICH BROKE AFTER 30 MINUTES OF ICE TIME.  NEXT TIME, BUY A WOOD STICK, SUCKER.  WE DO NOT VALUE YOUR BUSINESS.  THANK YOU AND HAVE A CRAP DAY."

This is an age-old issue here, but ALL RETAILERS are willing to deal with warranty claims, particularly since the replacement does not come out of their pocket -- it comes out of the manufacturers' pockets.

However, the question becomes what is a manufacturing defect?

1) Take your first shot and the blade flies off, that's obviously a manufacturing defect.

2) Play with it for seven weeks and the shaft splinters, that may be an issue of design -- perhaps the manufacturer should have been willing to use heavier materials to make the stick sturdier -- but the stick was produced according to specs.

3) Collide with another player and the shaft breaks, it's supposed to do that. Otherwise, you're playing with a metal club on the ice.

[mack 44]

I'm eating Poppycock and it's goddamn delicious.

[Jason Harris 31]

I don't understand why you'd suggest it's poppycock, Mack.

Every company in North America is in business to make a profit. The more established they are, the more likely they are to utilize percentages when establishing their budget: ie, COGS will be 18%, advertising 7%, salaries 22%, travel 1.5%, and so on.

I'm not saying that sticks aren't expensive. I'm just saying that the model doesn't change for a $200 product versus $18 elbow pads. If anything, they're more likely to try to get a higher percentage of profit on their lower priced items.

[mack 44]

I didn't say this was poppycock, I was eating it. I've since moved onto little Nestle Crunch bells and they're almost as delicious.

[crutesie 0]

I feel sorry for the owner of the LHS,

but what normal class citizen is gonna care where the stick came from when its $100 cheaper?. its only common sense.

[Nick23 0]

im just keeping my eyes on the sell sectoin for a recently joined user

"i am selling all my 200 sticks i recieved for christmas and no longer require as i play babminton, they come in all sizes makes and curves, lh and rh. $40 ono"

.....im waiting

[DarkStar50 679]

Beaucoup fish,

You and I agree on alot of stuff. I guess I came off as Scrooge Hockey Shop. I am totally NOT that way. I help everybody because my feeling is I want to make it right. I want positive experiences in the pro shop and on the ice. I return lots of defective product. that is part of my job. One of my many rambling points is sometimes the customer just doesn't get it. They are not willing to hear what you said at the time of purchase:"Be sure to keep your receipt because the stick comes with a 30 day warranty from the manufacturer." We say that here with every OPS sale. The customer also doesn't want to let me help them after they come in all full of piss and vinegar that their OPS or whatever broke. If you don't let the shop guy talk, he can't help you. I always let them talk first, then when they try to run over me, I nicely explain that now its my turn. I have heard it all for a long, long time. I will help you, if you let me.

The professional price is NOT $0. The teams have to pay for equipment. The discounts and pricing structures are different than for LHS. However, did you ever hear of an equipment manager who has no budget for purchasing $? haven't you heard about pro team equipment guys bitching because the OPS eats up so much of their purchasing budget? So, please understand there is no such thing as unlimited free equipment for the pros.

Most OPS last more than 20 minutes. There is value in a OPS. How is it than I can shoot harder with a OPS than I could when I played 20 years ago with a 5030? I know I was stronger 20 years ago than I am now. Sorry, but I do think there are some pretty extensive studies that show you can shoot harder with a OPS. Hence, value in a OPS, if you are willing to pay for it. You can blow up 6 5030 @$30 a pop in the same time, more or less than a OPS. Its up to the buyer, not the seller. The LHS is not holding a gun to anyone's head to buy anything.

As for online stores: my point is only they are just another form of competition, as the LHS is for them. With the sale, comes the service. I have an idea: make a sandwich at home, then walk over to your favorite deli and ask him to put the mustard on for free. Let me know what he says. This is what every online shopper does when he walks in with new skates and expects free baking or for the LHS to return a product to RBK because the LHS has an "account" with RBK. That one happens all the time.

I am not Scrooge Hockey Shop. I just like to present a different view of the world through a different frame of reference than just the hockey player buying gear. I am the hockey player buying gear for me and for you to buy at the LHS. that is all there is to this ramble.

BTW, Easton looked pretty good. Now you can bake next year's 1500C Synergy skate.

[GeeZa32 0]

im just keeping my eyes on the sell sectoin for a recently joined user

"i am selling all my 200 sticks i recieved for christmas and no longer require as i play babminton, they come in all sizes makes and curves, lh and rh. $40 ono"

.....im waiting

TURCOOOOOOO!!!

[mack 44]

Turco would be dumb enough to do that and not go thru a fence.

Merry Christmas, Turco you twat. I hope you get violated by a reindeer this Christmas.

[sweetblazer 0]

Pro deal eh? What the hell is that? Im assuming you are a pro? Where/who do u play for.

[jimmy 194]

Also, online stores stealing the LHS's business and undercutting them is irrelevant to this discussion. If the LHS really wanted to, they could also set up a business model whereby they purchase closeouts to sell off.

Not exactly true, the small LHS is not even offered closeouts, those deals are usually given to the mega stores and big internet sites.

[DLIGHTNING 0]

Beaucoup fish,

You and I agree on alot of stuff. I guess I came off as Scrooge Hockey Shop. I am totally NOT that way. I help everybody because my feeling is I want to make it right. I want positive experiences in the pro shop and on the ice. I return lots of defective product. that is part of my job. One of my many rambling points is sometimes the customer just doesn't get it. They are not willing to hear what you said at the time of purchase:"Be sure to keep your receipt because the stick comes with a 30 day warranty from the manufacturer." We say that here with every OPS sale. The customer also doesn't want to let me help them after they come in all full of piss and vinegar that their OPS or whatever broke. If you don't let the shop guy talk, he can't help you. I always let them talk first, then when they try to run over me, I nicely explain that now its my turn. I have heard it all for a long, long time. I will help you, if you let me.

The professional price is NOT $0. The teams have to pay for equipment. The discounts and pricing structures are different than for LHS. However, did you ever hear of an equipment manager who has no budget for purchasing $? haven't you heard about pro team equipment guys bitching because the OPS eats up so much of their purchasing budget? So, please understand there is no such thing as unlimited free equipment for the pros.

Most OPS last more than 20 minutes. There is value in a OPS. How is it than I can shoot harder with a OPS than I could when I played 20 years ago with a 5030? I know I was stronger 20 years ago than I am now. Sorry, but I do think there are some pretty extensive studies that show you can shoot harder with a OPS. Hence, value in a OPS, if you are willing to pay for it. You can blow up 6 5030 @$30 a pop in the same time, more or less than a OPS. Its up to the buyer, not the seller. The LHS is not holding a gun to anyone's head to buy anything.

As for online stores: my point is only they are just another form of competition, as the LHS is for them. With the sale, comes the service. I have an idea: make a sandwich at home, then walk over to your favorite deli and ask him to put the mustard on for free. Let me know what he says. This is what every online shopper does when he walks in with new skates and expects free baking or for the LHS to return a product to RBK because the LHS has an "account" with RBK. That one happens all the time.

I am not Scrooge Hockey Shop. I just like to present a different view of the world through a different frame of reference than just the hockey player buying gear. I am the hockey player buying gear for me and for you to buy at the LHS. that is all there is to this ramble.

BTW, Easton looked pretty good. Now you can bake next year's 1500C Synergy skate.

Dark Star , have you ever worked with a portable sharpener ? I have a Wisota Unit and am having a heck of a time trying to get the perfect balance on the holder, the skates are within the lines on the guage but I can not get them consistant ? Help Please.

I would much rather pay a bit extra to buy my gear from someone like yourself who actually knows what he is talking about !

[DLIGHTNING 0]

P, I don't know how to reply to your send ?

[beaucoup_fish 0]

Beaucoup fish,

You and I agree on alot of stuff. I guess I came off as Scrooge Hockey Shop. I am totally NOT that way. I help everybody because my feeling is I want to make it right. I want positive experiences in the pro shop and on the ice. I return lots of defective product. that is part of my job. One of my many rambling points is sometimes the customer just doesn't get it. They are not willing to hear what you said at the time of purchase:"Be sure to keep your receipt because the stick comes with a 30 day warranty from the manufacturer." We say that here with every OPS sale. The customer also doesn't want to let me help them after they come in all full of piss and vinegar that their OPS or whatever broke. If you don't let the shop guy talk, he can't help you. I always let them talk first, then when they try to run over me, I nicely explain that now its my turn. I have heard it all for a long, long time. I will help you, if you let me.

The professional price is NOT $0. The teams have to pay for equipment. The discounts and pricing structures are different than for LHS. However, did you ever hear of an equipment manager who has no budget for purchasing $? haven't you heard about pro team equipment guys bitching because the OPS eats up so much of their purchasing budget? So, please understand there is no such thing as unlimited free equipment for the pros.

Most OPS last more than 20 minutes. There is value in a OPS. How is it than I can shoot harder with a OPS than I could when I played 20 years ago with a 5030? I know I was stronger 20 years ago than I am now. Sorry, but I do think there are some pretty extensive studies that show you can shoot harder with a OPS. Hence, value in a OPS, if you are willing to pay for it. You can blow up 6 5030 @$30 a pop in the same time, more or less than a OPS. Its up to the buyer, not the seller. The LHS is not holding a gun to anyone's head to buy anything.

As for online stores: my point is only they are just another form of competition, as the LHS is for them. With the sale, comes the service. I have an idea: make a sandwich at home, then walk over to your favorite deli and ask him to put the mustard on for free. Let me know what he says. This is what every online shopper does when he walks in with new skates and expects free baking or for the LHS to return a product to RBK because the LHS has an "account" with RBK. That one happens all the time.

I am not Scrooge Hockey Shop. I just like to present a different view of the world through a different frame of reference than just the hockey player buying gear. I am the hockey player buying gear for me and for you to buy at the LHS. that is all there is to this ramble.

BTW, Easton looked pretty good. Now you can bake next year's 1500C Synergy skate.

Several valid points. Many customers are indeed jackasses, and many probably come into shops fuming, looking to take out their anger on the first shop guy in sight, not realizing that it's not the shop's fault for him/her getting a faulty stick.

When I said the professional price was $0, I meant to the players, not the team. I am well aware that teams pay for equipment, but each individual player on an NHL or even AHL team doesn't pay for his own stick. Although, that's not a bad idea, I think they should, at least, at the NHL level - I mean, if Modano is going to cycle thru gear like that, might as well make it out of his own pocket. A guy like Shanahan, he probably has saved the team tons of money on gear over the last 15 years (until this year).

As for performance benefit, I know this debate can go on forever, but I just don't see NHLers (much less a regular joe) reaping any real gains from an OPS. Guys were scoring 50 goals back when everyone was using a 4x4 for a stick, and guys are scoring 50 goals with an OPS. No one is scoring 76 goals anymore (though this year could be interesting - not that I would attribute the results to OPSes, b/c it would've happened years ago if was a result of guys using them). Personally, I'll stick to my woodies, which I've never busted in less than 5 ice times. OPSes, however, well, let's just say that in my experience (and from the sounds of it, many on this board), there's a lotta flimsy stuff out there...

Online stores: great sandwich analogy. Love it. I know that they take away some of your business, and it's worse when guys come in to try skates on with absolutely zero intention of making a purchase even though you've taken the time to help them out. I personally don't shop online, but that's only because I like to see the product in person. That said, I think some shop guys are jackasses, and get off on being a "hockey gear expert." Truth be told, some guys in shops are clueless, on top of being jerks. It sounds like you do take pride in helping customers though, but are understandably frustrated. Good luck in the new year.

[jimmy 194]

have you ever worked with a portable sharpener ? I have a Wisota Unit and am having a heck of a time trying to get the perfect balance on the holder, the skates are within the lines on the guage but I can not get them consistant ? Help Please.

I would much rather pay a bit extra to buy my gear from someone like yourself who actually knows what he is talking about !

With proper training and EXPERIENCE, meaning lots of sharpenings, one can sharper skates perfectly with a Wisota. You just need to improve your technique.

I had a customer who had a Wisota. Seems he couldn't get a consistent hollow. I asked him a few questions, one... when was the last time you changed your diamond. His response,... never. Didn't know he needed to. Lack of training, plain and simple. It's not as easy as it seems.

[Chadd 916]

have you ever worked with a portable sharpener ? I have a Wisota Unit and am having a heck of a time trying to get the perfect balance on the holder, the skates are within the lines on the guage but I can not get them consistant ? Help Please.

I would much rather pay a bit extra to buy my gear from someone like yourself who actually knows what he is talking about !

With proper training and EXPERIENCE, meaning lots of sharpenings, one can sharper skates perfectly with a Wisota. You just need to improve your technique.

I had a customer who had a Wisota. Seems he couldn't get a consistent hollow. I asked him a few questions, one... when was the last time you changed your diamond. His response,... never. Didn't know he needed to. Lack of training, plain and simple. It's not as easy as it seems.

The wissota I had was a piece of crap but I was able to do a better job than most people in my area with it. Now that I have a good machine and a better holder, it's not even close.