Tblades, A Day by Day Journal.

[Rustybender 0]

It's not so easy to determine someones gender on the internet. For some reason I thought you were a girl. Normally I'd apologize for the mistake and edit the post, but you had to be a bitch about it and had to throw "duchebag" in there so you get neither.

My original post will remain, I hope that doesn't bother you. (I know how emotional you women can get...)

[BK 0]

It's not so easy to determine someones gender on the internet. For some reason I thought you were a girl. Normally I'd apologize for the mistake and edit the post, but you had to be a bitch about it and had to throw "duchebag" in there so you get neither.

My original post will remain, I hope that doesn't bother you. (I know how emotional you women can get...)

Thanks for tossing this thread into another arguement.. keep your posts the same.. I honestly couldnt care less.

Now please, lets get back on topic..

[Jason Harris 31]

It's not so easy to determine someones gender on the internet.  For some reason I thought you were a girl.  Normally I'd apologize for the mistake and edit the post, but you had to be a bitch about it and had to throw "duchebag" in there so you get neither.

My original post will remain, I hope that doesn't bother you. (I know how emotional you women can get...)

Hobbes_86 is the classy lady.... ;)

[gavin 0]

badkitty already talked about his gf earlier in the thread, so i assumed that badkitty = a dude.

people don't call me sherlock for nothing.

Alright, I'm actually posting about my own experiences with t'blades. I have skated with t'blades for one practice that consisted of mostly scrimmage, and I just returned from a game for my college club team. My observations:

1)I think that the holders are at a neutral pitch, whereas I'm used to the traditional Tacks or e-blade type pitch, more leaning forward. I'm sure that I could get my Vector ZG130's installed with some kind of shim to make them lean forward more, to be like my Vector 3.0s that I got comfortable with.

2)You can feel the radius on the blade narrow considerably when you lean into a turn. I think this is because the blade is bending. While this means that I can indeed corner quicker, sometimes it gets me a little off balance. Maybe I will be able to adjust and I will be able to take more advantage of this.

3)They are very light. This is very very noticable. The ZG130s are a very light, very stiff skate overall.

4). It seems like I could glide better.

Now, to answer jimmy before he responds with "go get your e-blades hollowed/rockers exactly like your new t'blades and you'll find that they're basically the same," I'll say this: there is no way I could get a guy around here with enough knowhow to do such a thing to my traditional blades. I'm lucky if I walk away from the shop $4 lighter with a bloody edge on my skate, much less the hollow/rocker that is best for me.

Not to mention the fact that I have cracks in both my e-blades and I have retired that set of skates to pond-hockey duty. I will mention that I do want to learn how to sharpen my own skates: now that I have a pair of pond hockey dingers I'm going to start using the old sharpener in the equipment room. Any of you guys have links/info on how to learn the lost art of sharpening one's skates?

[ktang 34]

These questions might be hard to answer, but:

(i) If a pair of flexy traditional blades, such as the Easton Razor-Bladz (Parabolics?), could be given a good, proper sharpening, would they behave like the flexy t'blades? or close enough?

(ii) Is the noise from t'blades coming from the flexy blades' bending unevenly and scraping during pushoffs?

(iii) Related to (ii), is the skating motion needed for t'blades different because of the flexy blades' bending unevenly during the stride?

[Jason Harris 31]

(i) If a pair of flexy traditional blades, such as the Easton Razor-Bladz (Parabolics?), could be given a good, proper sharpening, would they behave like the flexy t'blades? or close enough?

Sounds conceivable.

(ii) Is the noise from t'blades coming from the flexy blades' bending unevenly and scraping during pushoffs?

Maybe partially, although I think it's more from the how sharp the blades are and how deeply they cut the ice. There are times when it's quite possible to skate silently with t'blades, particularly when skating straight ahead, so it doesn't appear pushoffs are the only cause of the noise.

However, while crossing over, they create more noise. I think there are occasions when the flexiness of the blade may cause slight toe-picking, because it might not have straightened fully to "center." Combine this with sharper steel, and I think it causes greater noise.

(iii) Related to (ii), is the skating motion needed for t'blades different because of the flexy blades' bending unevenly during the stride?

No.

For some, it's because the pitch is different. (In my case, I was pitched much more forward compared to my previous skates, so bending the knees alleviated the sensation that I would fall on my face.) However, the one thing I am positive about is being a half-inch closer to the ice, as silly as it sounds, changes the angles.

I've tested this. I took a conventional skate and placed it on a table at the necessary angle to be on its edge. Let's just call it 45 degrees. Then I took a t'blade skate and placed it next to the conventional skate at the same angle, and it was quite apparent that it was not yet on its edge. It was still somewhat on the bottom of the blade and required leaning another couple of degrees closer to the table before it was on its edge.

The only way one could attain that lower lean on the ice would be by bending the knees deeper, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for most of us. Conversely, I think this is why people often say they felt like they were sliding the first time they tried t'blades. If their muscle memory is telling their legs to bend at 45 degrees, then they will feel like they are on butter knives until they get to 47 degrees (or whatever it is.)

[Full disclosure here, because I may seem like a paid huckster due to the F1's on eBay. Salming has suspended the skate program, which is a shame because they are so darn comfortable. I hope we one day bring back skates, but I don't want them to be with t'blades, because it's obvious the sales would have been better with conventional blades.

That said, I'll never switch back to conventional skates. So my defending t'blades is no different than in any other thread I may have argued passionately. I believe my skating improved with them, yet I'm willing to concede the possibility exists that it is due to finally getting away from an incorrect rocker/hollow/radius, although I'm doubtful that had been the case. I believe there are certain elements to the design which lead to improved skating. The only thing which will sway me otherwise is to try to do a sort of blind test, not whether I see another player, beer leaguer or NHLer, wearing them.]

[gavin 0]

Longevity?

Hey guys, while we're talking about our experiences with t'blades, I'd like to ask if anyone out there has some serious problems with the holders breaking. I'm very new (just got them 5 days ago) to t'blades and withing 6 hours of getting them in the mail there was a hole in the holder. A hole in the holder after skating what coach called "the easiest practice yet." I've posted a pic of the broken holder on another tread, and I won't re-post it here, but here's the link:

Hockeymonkey.com thread

Anyways, I hope no other t'blade users have had such bad experiences with the holders breaking like this, but if you have, please let me know! I don't want to try and keep using a technology that breaks from easy skates. My budget in no way would allow it!

[Chanimal 0]

The hole you speak of it really a chip of the holder, probably caused by someone else's blade making contact with your skates. Since the holder's wall s are thin, it creaed a hole. I have been skating on t'blade for 3 years. I have replced the runner a total of 4 times. I play at least once a week, so I replace the runner as prescribed, every 30 ice times or so. Now, back to the holder.....the only time I broke a holder is when I took my skates in to get them baked again to refit my feet, the idiot at the proshop heated them too high, and the holder softened up. When I kicked back, the holder bended....

As for the chip on your holder, I have skated with something like that for an extended period of time with no noticable effect on my skating, I wouldn't worry about it for now. Keep your eye out on ebay for folks selling holders, and if you like the system, my advice is to get a couple of spare holders just in case. I always have a couple sittiing around, and I only paid like $25 for them......

[ktang 34]

I was thinking that if t'blades helped with speed and gliding so much, we would see long-track speed skaters using them. But, they have almost no hollow in their blades, and the clap-skates need a lot of strength at the hinge, so a zytel blade holder probably would flex too much...

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

I have not chimed in on this thread. Most people know my opinion of t'blades anyway.

But one thing that I find funny is the "savings" factor. People say that they get 2 to 3x more life out of a t'blade...I just think that they just try to justify the higher price of the runners by skating on them longer than they should.

/Back to lurk mode

[gavin 0]

Chanimal: I didn't know whether to respond to you on this thread or on the other one. But if you go over there you'll realize that that hole showed up the very first skate. Like literally within 6 hours of getting the skates in the mail.

Any other situation I would just glue it up with some goop or something (ducktape anyone??) and bear it. But I think this time I'm going to take CCM's waranty option. I've used it in the past on Tacks that had defects, The Hockey Company is so gracious about these kind of things. That's (partially) why I am virtually a diehard CCM fan currently.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Word around the campfire is that t'blades won't be on THC/RBK skates anymore...

[Gongshow11 1]

its about time, i dont know one person who wears those pieces of junk. i see the odd plug here and there at shinny, but i avoid skating behind him so as to not get ice pellets in my eyes

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

I didn't say that they were getting out of the disposable blade business...

[gavin 0]

hmmm...

you're thinking that THC is going to do it their own way? it kinda makes sense: they're the only major brand (not counting Graf and, yes i know Graf is pretty major) that makes models with disposable blade technology. And I don't see any patent of any kind on the t'blade itself.

All the guys that have seen mine are pretty intruiged. And the featherlight weight... most of the guys that have Vapor XXX are just amazed at how light the ZG130s are!

[ktang 34]

CCM is coming out with another holder, again! Prolite -> EPL -> disposable blades. Something else for the LHS to stock up on.

This will be interesting to see, can't wait. Won't try, but will see what others' experiences are.

[santiclaws 0]

You are partially correct about steel and steel hardness.  It is well know by skate sharpeners that high carbon steel holds the best edge, followed by stainless, then low carbon.  Many different steels are made to different hardness levels, some hold edges better than others.   

Sorry, jimmy, but what you're saying is pretty much the exact opposite of what the facts are. First off, "followed by stainless, then low carbon" makes no sense because stainless is low carbon. In fact, the major difference in the hardness of steel is the carbon content. Carbon is soft, so the higher the carbon content in the metal, the softer the metal, not the other way around. High carbon steel is relatively soft, which is desirable in anything you're actually going to sharpen. A good quality, surgical grade stainless steel is much harder - but can't be sharpened by conventional means.

If you're going to make something that is designed to be sharpened, it needs to be made out of a relatively soft metal. For instance, a good quality chef's knife is made out of a high carbon steel because it can be sharpened. A scalpel, on the other hand, is made of a high-grade, low carbon surgical steel which is much, much harder. Because a scalpel is harder, it holds its edge much longer than a conventional chef's knife, but once it loses it, it has to be thrown away, because it is far too hard to sharpen - they are much harder than just about any sharpening tool you can use and would simply destroy the tool which was being used in an attempt to sharpen such a knife.

Same exact theory applies to skate blades. Skate blades which are designed to be sharpened have to be made out of relatively soft metal, otherwise you simply could not sharpen them with any conventional tool. The down side of a relatively soft metal is that it doesn't hold its edge as well as a harder metal. A T-blade is never going to be sharpened, so in theory it can be made of a much harder stainless steel which would hold its edge much longer.

Whether they are or not, is a different question, although I don't see why they wouldn't be - surgical grade steel is relatively cheap.

Also, by virtue of the T-blade being shorter than a conventional blade, even if it is of equal hardness, there will be much less flex in the blade. That's just physics.

[Chadd 916]

CCM is coming out with another holder, again! Prolite -> EPL -> disposable blades. Something else for the LHS to stock up on.

This will be interesting to see, can't wait. Won't try, but will see what others' experiences are.

Now they make a chunk of the profit on something (sharpenings) that they never did before and is what really keeps a lot of small shops in business. If they keep this up they can eliminate small shops entirely.

[hockeysew 0]

:o Those with questions on Steel

Basic Metallurgy 101:

Iron + Carbon = Steel

Steel + Chromium and or Nickel = Stainless Steel

Steel + More Carbon = High Carbon Steel ie "Tool Steel"= some skate blades

High Carbon Steel + Chromium/Nickle = High Carbon Stainless Steel ie "Skate Blades"

Carbon is present in virtually all ferrous (magnetic) metals. With out the Carbon the nodules of Iron remain too large to align and become hard. Here becomes the balancing act, too much Carbon the Steel becomes brittle vs. too little Carbon the Steel is unable to be hardened to a sufficent degree to retain an edge

Steel

Iron Basics

Chromium

[jimmy 194]

You are partially correct about steel and steel hardness.  It is well know by skate sharpeners that high carbon steel holds the best edge, followed by stainless, then low carbon.  Many different steels are made to different hardness levels, some hold edges better than others.   

Sorry, jimmy, but what you're saying is pretty much the exact opposite of what the facts are. First off, "followed by stainless, then low carbon" makes no sense because stainless is low carbon. In fact, the major difference in the hardness of steel is the carbon content. Carbon is soft, so the higher the carbon content in the metal, the softer the metal, not the other way around. High carbon steel is relatively soft, which is desirable in anything you're actually going to sharpen. A good quality, surgical grade stainless steel is much harder - but can't be sharpened by conventional means.

If you're going to make something that is designed to be sharpened, it needs to be made out of a relatively soft metal. For instance, a good quality chef's knife is made out of a high carbon steel because it can be sharpened. A scalpel, on the other hand, is made of a high-grade, low carbon surgical steel which is much, much harder. Because a scalpel is harder, it holds its edge much longer than a conventional chef's knife, but once it loses it, it has to be thrown away, because it is far too hard to sharpen - they are much harder than just about any sharpening tool you can use and would simply destroy the tool which was being used in an attempt to sharpen such a knife.

Same exact theory applies to skate blades. Skate blades which are designed to be sharpened have to be made out of relatively soft metal, otherwise you simply could not sharpen them with any conventional tool. The down side of a relatively soft metal is that it doesn't hold its edge as well as a harder metal. A T-blade is never going to be sharpened, so in theory it can be made of a much harder stainless steel which would hold its edge much longer.

Whether they are or not, is a different question, although I don't see why they wouldn't be - surgical grade steel is relatively cheap.

Also, by virtue of the T-blade being shorter than a conventional blade, even if it is of equal hardness, there will be much less flex in the blade. That's just physics.

I was referring to skates blades, we basically have three types. The cheap low carbon blades with the chrome plating, the higher quality carbon blades (not many of these around anymore) and stainless. These are the three I was talking about in regards to holding edges.

[chippa13 1844]

CCM is coming out with another holder, again! Prolite -> EPL -> disposable blades. Something else for the LHS to stock up on.

This will be interesting to see, can't wait. Won't try, but will see what others' experiences are.

Now they make a chunk of the profit on something (sharpenings) that they never did before and is what really keeps a lot of small shops in business. If they keep this up they can eliminate small shops entirely.

How do you figure? If the disposable blades catch on then the shops can stock them and continue to make money. I'll bet the same thinking came about when T-Blades first came on the scene.

[Chadd 916]

CCM is coming out with another holder, again! Prolite -> EPL -> disposable blades. Something else for the LHS to stock up on.

This will be interesting to see, can't wait. Won't try, but will see what others' experiences are.

Now they make a chunk of the profit on something (sharpenings) that they never did before and is what really keeps a lot of small shops in business. If they keep this up they can eliminate small shops entirely.

How do you figure? If the disposable blades catch on then the shops can stock them and continue to make money. I'll bet the same thinking came about when T-Blades first came on the scene.

A replacement blade can be purchased just as easily online as it can in a shop. That adds another place for shops and online retailers to battle. Now, instead of having your $10k sharpener paid off within a year or so, you're constantly having to manage inventory and stock something that you're only going to make 40 points on if you're lucky. I've seen a large reduction in t'blades in the last 6-12 months as the kids who bought skates with them are replacing them with skates that have more traditional steel.

[chippa13 1844]

CCM is coming out with another holder, again! Prolite -> EPL -> disposable blades. Something else for the LHS to stock up on.

This will be interesting to see, can't wait. Won't try, but will see what others' experiences are.

Now they make a chunk of the profit on something (sharpenings) that they never did before and is what really keeps a lot of small shops in business. If they keep this up they can eliminate small shops entirely.

How do you figure? If the disposable blades catch on then the shops can stock them and continue to make money. I'll bet the same thinking came about when T-Blades first came on the scene.

A replacement blade can be purchased just as easily online as it can in a shop. That adds another place for shops and online retailers to battle. Now, instead of having your $10k sharpener paid off within a year or so, you're constantly having to manage inventory and stock something that you're only going to make 40 points on if you're lucky. I've seen a large reduction in t'blades in the last 6-12 months as the kids who bought skates with them are replacing them with skates that have more traditional steel.

And I'll bet when T-Blades first came out shops were thinking they would be losing business. With the flop that they have been around these parts, that has definitely not been the case.

Trust me, with the amount of Bauer, Graf, Mission, Easton, and CCM traditional blades around, you won't lose much if any business.

[gavin 0]

Chadd, If I lived in your area and you sharpened my skates, I would buy replaceable blades from you and not from an online store.

Get it? The question will aways be about who can give me decent service. I don't even ask for exceptional customer service anymore, but because I could probably get decent customer service with your shop as opposed to an online store, I would be buying disposable blades from you.

Unfortunately, I don't live in your area, or near ANYONE who knows their stuff when it comes to skates.

[Chadd 916]

Chadd, If I lived in your area and you sharpened my skates, I would buy replaceable blades from you and not from an online store.

Get it? The question will aways be about who can give me decent service. I don't even ask for exceptional customer service anymore, but because I could probably get decent customer service with your shop as opposed to an online store, I would be buying disposable blades from you.

Unfortunately, I don't live in your area, or near ANYONE who knows their stuff when it comes to skates.

Around here it's price, price, price. People would go to PIAS around the corner from the shop because their sharpenings were $4 instead of the $5 I charged. The fact they never got their skates done the same way twice in a row or even level most of the time didn't matter to them. They saved about $10 a year, quality and service is irrelevant to a lot of people.