Whats happened to hockey?

[BK 0]

What ever happened to playing hockey for fun? It seems like its turned into a big gimic fiasco of who has the coolest gear or whatever the next big gimmic is. Breathing gizmos to improve your breathing, people spending more on a tub of vitamins than on their skates and 12 year olds thinking that if they are not pumped up on cod liver oil and dont hit the weights for 10 hours a day that they cant play... I was getting my wife fitted for some skates when a parent came in and wanted a pair of one90s for his son. His son couldn't have been a day over 8 years old and the skate did not fit his foot (it was too tight at the toecap). The storeworker explained that it was not the right kind of skate for his foot, but the parent demanded the skates anyways and dropped about $250 on a pair of skates that the kid will probably outgrow in 4 months.

What happened to just getting together with your friends and just playing hockey? Not worrying about who has what gear or what $X00 dollar thing will make them the next ovechkin?

Sorry about the rant.. I am just a little pissy today I guess.. Mondays :)

[mack 44]

Sports have become more science than game, that's all.

[BK 0]

Sports have become more science than game, that's all.

Yea.. its sad huh?

Even my college team is more politics than game. Practice isn't fun anymore like it was in highschool and games are more stressful than fun.

[Chadd 916]

1. Kids used to dream of being pro athletes and ther parents played along until a point when it was time to get the kids focused on getting a real job. Now parents are convinced that little johnny is going to make the hall of fame. Very few realize how unlikely it is to make it to that level.

2. Parents who want their kids to be pros are willing to pay for whatever it takes to make johnny a pro. If that means $900 skates, they will pay. What it usually doesn't mean is getting up at 4AM to spend time on the ice before school like all of the old time pros talk about doing when they were kids. It's also cheaper to pay for top of the line skates than it is to buy an extra hour of ice every month, at least in the US.

3. People will take any shortcut they can. If you can make your shot better by buying a new stick or practicing for a number of hours, most people are buying the new satick. Same goes for skates, they make you better just by having them so you don't need to practice as much. I can take a supplement or spend extra hours in the gym? How many pills do I need to take? It's human nature.

4. People love to show off. If you're more affluent and can afford more expensive gear, you're going to brag about it. Duuble credit if you're 13-22.

[hockeymom 2]

Fun BK...what's that?

I live in a city and little kids can't go "call on" other kids the way I did, and probably even the way you did when you were a kid. Even the supposedly casual fun of getting together was an organized "play date". I wonder what the social ramifications of that will be?

I purposely moved beside a school thinking there would be more opportunity for pick-up games and general messing around. Very, very little of that. Good heavens, we used to meet in the school yard every day and make up teams on the spot (I always got picked last...boo-hoo) - that's becoming a lost art.

Virtually all encounters with sports are through an organized team. My daughter decided to stay at house league soccer because she wanted to have one sport just be "fun". (Hockey, of course, is VERY serious fun).

In terms of hockey... well, in general, a big part of the problem is parental expectations. Part of the problem might be the actual cost of the game if you're going at it full tilt in competitive leagues (if you're already spending thousands what is a couple of hundred more?). And another part of the problem is looking for "competitive edge" - the most expensive is not always the best option, but people sometimes fail to think does my kid have the "heft" to flex these skates? And a ton of it is both kid and parent buying into the "dream" whatever their dream is. I'm not sure if that is a problem or not, guess it is a matter of degree - and where expectations and reality line-up.

We DON'T have the NHL dream and still go at this pretty large... just for the fun of it. Well, that's not really true, my kid LOVES hockey and she dreams of playing varsity hockey... I don't know if she'll be good enough or not, but I DO know if I don't support her now, she'll never get to find out.

OK, so here's where I justify my position in all of this....

As it is, well, I've got a pretty large investment in this fun game. And it IS fun, BK!! Regular season and tournys are probably $2500 Cdn (competitive girls hockey is MUCH cheaper than boys), add onto that the extra ice time (we get up at 5.45 am Chadd...LOL), and the extra skills sessions - weekly skating sessions and some shooting lessons and then there are hockey camps in the Summer and March break... I make her take Christmas off... all in, I think I'm at about $7,000 per year. I guess that would be a lot cheaper AND more fun if I could teach her myself.

Beyond money there is a significant time investment too. She has easily 6 or 7 hours on-ice each week from Sep to April - which translates into about 20 hours of time weekly including all of the truck time and hanging at arenas. And that doesn't include the time we spend messing around on the pond at the farm. OR, all of the "pleasure skates" she goes to to work on her skating by herself that, until this year, I've had to drive her to.

Now, with that size of an investment in time and money, am I going to "cheap out" and save a couple of dollars on equipment? Nah... I think it is a false savings to do that.

I confess I'm a gear-whore, and if my kid were only into it... As we're walking into the LHS, she'll say "Mum, remember we are getting skates sharpened... and that's ALL. Don't find something you want me to look at". Really tho', she's about as equipped as anyone could ever possibly be, so there really isn't anything to buy anymore... I just like to look at this stuff, investigate it... Probably much the same as you do BK... even with your minimalist approach, you just HAVE to look don't you? LOL

That being said... I used to get her new or used mid-range equipment - and the fit was always the most critical thing - now that she's stopped growing, and the play is getting to higher levels, we're getting into higher end new stuff - and I justify it by the amount of use and amortizing it over several years of usage. And, remember, equipment is the CHEAP part of the game.

I can't think of any piece where I'd want to scrimp on her equipment:

• wears puckskin at about $100 (but she gets rashes from bacteria without it),

• pretty close to top end pants... Itech - think they were around $80, maybe $100 - but she tried on everything in the store and these fit her best. Now into 2nd year.

• good should pads Nike 10's - they were over $100 I think, and that purchase HURT because I was thinking maybe $60 at the time; but they had the mobility she wanted and protection I demanded (good thing too - she took a skate in the stomach a week after buying these, and it would have been ugly in her other pads). Two years later these look brand new.

• Joffa shins and possibly elbows - again, what fits best and is most comfortable/protective... have no idea what they cost.... probably at or near the top end given my proclivities.

• wick socks (have no idea what brand, and yeah, she could wear cotton socks, but hell, these just go into the wash with her puckskins every night so why not?)

• Bauer XXX gloves which were $170 Cdn - well, this one I already explained in another thread, lost a glove and had to replace them for the Provincial Championships that weekend. If she'd had time to break in a pair of gloves, we would have bought a less expensive pair. And man, do I hate how "visible" these are... a "neon" sign that I'm one of THOSE parents...lol... everything else is well hidden underneath.

• Itech helmet and cage $100 - soon to be replaced with the intake helmet she won on the Mission contest... I'll REALLY look like one of THOSE parents then...LOL

• Bauer One40 stick $30 (coaches want her to go composite; she likes woodies)

• blue WAXED laces $4 - because there just has to be some frivolous, fun bits in life.... cost me $10 in gas to drive across the city to get them.

• Skate sharpening - easily $200++/year (I suppose I could tell her to skate on dull blades to save some $$'s LOL)

And here is one that might surprise you... massive savings on the One90 skates...

At 14, her very first pair of top end skates - I think the jrs were somewhere around $500 bucks Cdn - and the price range of skates we were looking at were $500 to $700 depending on if they were jr or sr skates. I may have those prices wrong; convenient memory doesn't want to remember it exactly! And I'll tell you BK, if she had said one of the Sr.'s were the best feeling/fitting skate, I would have happily paid the extra $200 to put her in them. I really don't care what the skate costs - I want the right skate for her. She's always been really, really picky about the fit of her skates (she and Oldtrainer guy got on perfectly).

As far as other stuff goes - no Gatorade or caffeine crap drinks or even soft drinks for that matter - as a serious athlete, she runs on bananas and orange juice and water. Need better performance? Go work out!!

On the bright side - it used to cost my dad about $30,000 per year to have me show horses internationally - so maybe I've actually lucked out that she didn't pick "my sport".

whew... guess I don't have much of an opinion on THIS one...LOL

[mack 44]

Admins...uh...move to propose a character limit on posts.

[All Torhs Team 0]

2. Parents who want their kids to be pros are willing to pay for whatever it takes to make johnny a pro. If that means $900 skates, they will pay. What it usually doesn't mean is getting up at 4AM to spend time on the ice before school like all of the old time pros talk about doing when they were kids. It's also cheaper to pay for top of the line skates than it is to buy an extra hour of ice every month, at least in the US.

3. People will take any shortcut they can. If you can make your shot better by buying a new stick or practicing for a number of hours, most people are buying the new satick. Same goes for skates, they make you better just by having them so you don't need to practice as much. I can take a supplement or spend extra hours in the gym? How many pills do I need to take? It's human nature.

I understand what your saying, but I think theres also another side of it. Some people actually get the skates for the real point, they are lighter. Or the stick because its lighter/more durable. Not everyone just gets it because they think they can get better. Some people are actually good and dont want disadvantages under the other players.

I understand the argument though, what ever happened to "old time" hockey before all this new OPS and amazing skates.

But was it like this back then too? Did they go crazy over the newest woody?

[hockeymom 2]

Admins...uh...move to propose a character limit on posts.

Would that be a limit on the number of characters per post - or, only those of Good character can post?

LOL

[mack 44]

Po-tay-toh, po-tah-toh because you'd be out on either account. HUZZAH.

[Chadd 916]

2. Parents who want their kids to be pros are willing to pay for whatever it takes to make johnny a pro. If that means $900 skates, they will pay. What it usually doesn't mean is getting up at 4AM to spend time on the ice before school like all of the old time pros talk about doing when they were kids. It's also cheaper to pay for top of the line skates than it is to buy an extra hour of ice every month, at least in the US.

3. People will take any shortcut they can. If you can make your shot better by buying a new stick or practicing for a number of hours, most people are buying the new satick. Same goes for skates, they make you better just by having them so you don't need to practice as much. I can take a supplement or spend extra hours in the gym? How many pills do I need to take? It's human nature.

I understand what your saying, but I think theres also another side of it. Some people actually get the skates for the real point, they are lighter. Or the stick because its lighter/more durable. Not everyone just gets it because they think they can get better. Some people are actually good and dont want disadvantages under the other players.

I understand the argument though, what ever happened to "old time" hockey before all this new OPS and amazing skates.

But was it like this back then too? Did they go crazy over the newest woody?

Peple are making decisions more and more based simply on marketing and less on what is actually best for them.

[pantherfan 0]

But was it like this back then too? Did they go crazy over the newest woody?

I doubt it the internet creates so much hype its unbelieveable, where as in the "old days" people would have used a product becuase they liked it.

[hockeymom 2]

Po-tay-toh, po-tah-toh because you'd be out on either account. HUZZAH.

I'll just consider the source.... :D

[hockeymom 2]

2. Parents who want their kids to be pros are willing to pay for whatever it takes to make johnny a pro. If that means $900 skates, they will pay. What it usually doesn't mean is getting up at 4AM to spend time on the ice before school like all of the old time pros talk about doing when they were kids. It's also cheaper to pay for top of the line skates than it is to buy an extra hour of ice every month, at least in the US.

3. People will take any shortcut they can. If you can make your shot better by buying a new stick or practicing for a number of hours, most people are buying the new satick. Same goes for skates, they make you better just by having them so you don't need to practice as much. I can take a supplement or spend extra hours in the gym? How many pills do I need to take? It's human nature.

I understand what your saying, but I think theres also another side of it. Some people actually get the skates for the real point, they are lighter. Or the stick because its lighter/more durable. Not everyone just gets it because they think they can get better. Some people are actually good and dont want disadvantages under the other players.

I understand the argument though, what ever happened to "old time" hockey before all this new OPS and amazing skates.

But was it like this back then too? Did they go crazy over the newest woody?

Peple are making decisions more and more based simply on marketing and less on what is actually best for them.

I don't buy into it is all "the fault of advertising and marketing".

There is a wider variety of equipment available today, with more research, development and science behind it. Arguably, it has never been easier or more possible to get equipment that is best for you and the way you play, than it is today.

No one would WANT to play with the equipment that was available in "the good old days, when men were men and hockey was still fun"

There is more competition between the various manufacturers, hence more of a need to advertise.

And in terms of "what's best"... well, even if this seems contradictory, I know of very few sports that run on people's personal opinion and bias more than hockey does. Man, some opinions just fly in the face of science and common sense!

[Eazy_b97 1]

But was it like this back then too? Did they go crazy over the newest woody?

I doubt it the internet creates so much hype its unbelieveable, where as in the "old days" people would have used a product becuase they liked it.

I remember the excitement of all the kids when a friend had his own nameplate on some Sherwood SOPs before OPS were available. Even the Gretzky aluminum and Ultra-Lites were huge statements around here.

[Muzza_77 0]

I used to be a whole 'gear hoar' I could never afford the gear, but thinking 'man i would be so much better with that glove' 'I would be heaps better with those Vapor XX' Until I realised that no matter what glove I get it comes down to me. Heck, I played state and made nationals, using a pair Bauer 300 Jnrs (these are the older ones that have no split fingers). So yeah it is the person inside. Then again, I need a new pair of gloves, I like to have the latest stuff but I am not going to fork out MY money on One90s I will either by One70s, One 50s or the glove that fits the best even if it is another Bauer 300.

It was my first state comp, I had so much fun it was unbelievable, I can away with the biggest smile on my face. I can tell you now that if I had played with a pair of One90 gloves and converted inline skates I would of had the same amount of fun that I would of had with my bauer 300s and rollerdaddys.

If I make the world cup team next year, then maybe I will buy into higher gear, but heah, it is an international competition.

[DarkStar50 679]

EasyB is dead on. Players have been watching what NHLers wear since the 70s. I've been playing hockey since late 60s and always knew who had CCM Tacks skates. The big buzz when Gary Bergman on the Red Wings first used a Koho(Made in Finland, oh my God!) wood stick in 72. When Sher-Wood made the big push and got back in the NHL as well. If you wanted to be a gear whore back then, you could be. Read the Hockey News, watch the games on TV or buy the hockey mags to check out the gear in the pictures. And back then organized/travel hockey was just as competitive as it is today. There were fewer players in the pool but it was still just as hard. In some ways hockey was a tougher game then, too. When Ogie Ogglethorpe showed up, you did piss in your pants. Now, teams shake hands before the game! The amount of fun you want to have playing if you are 12 or 50 is all dependent on you.

[Chadd 916]

2. Parents who want their kids to be pros are willing to pay for whatever it takes to make johnny a pro. If that means $900 skates, they will pay. What it usually doesn't mean is getting up at 4AM to spend time on the ice before school like all of the old time pros talk about doing when they were kids. It's also cheaper to pay for top of the line skates than it is to buy an extra hour of ice every month, at least in the US.

3. People will take any shortcut they can. If you can make your shot better by buying a new stick or practicing for a number of hours, most people are buying the new satick. Same goes for skates, they make you better just by having them so you don't need to practice as much. I can take a supplement or spend extra hours in the gym? How many pills do I need to take? It's human nature.

I understand what your saying, but I think theres also another side of it. Some people actually get the skates for the real point, they are lighter. Or the stick because its lighter/more durable. Not everyone just gets it because they think they can get better. Some people are actually good and dont want disadvantages under the other players.

I understand the argument though, what ever happened to "old time" hockey before all this new OPS and amazing skates.

But was it like this back then too? Did they go crazy over the newest woody?

Peple are making decisions more and more based simply on marketing and less on what is actually best for them.

I don't buy into it is all "the fault of advertising and marketing".

There is a wider variety of equipment available today, with more research, development and science behind it. Arguably, it has never been easier or more possible to get equipment that is best for you and the way you play, than it is today.

No one would WANT to play with the equipment that was available in "the good old days, when men were men and hockey was still fun"

There is more competition between the various manufacturers, hence more of a need to advertise.

And in terms of "what's best"... well, even if this seems contradictory, I know of very few sports that run on people's personal opinion and bias more than hockey does. Man, some opinions just fly in the face of science and common sense!

There may be more manufacturers and more competition but the top brands still have the same market dominance that they used to have. Swap Easton for Sher-wood due to the composite revolution and the names haven't changed too much.

I agree that there is a greater chance that something is going to work for you now than ever before. My beef isn't that products are marketed better than ever before, it's with the customers. Between the people who buy blades because of the name of the player on it, or others who think something is better because it's lighter or flashier or the ones who think they know everything because they saw an ad in THN people are less open to experience and prefessional advice than ever before.

People who work in shops will back me up on this more than ever before people are coming into stores already knowing exactly what they want. It doesn't matter if Vapor XXX (or now One90s) don't fit their feet, that's what little Johnny needs to make him a better player. By damned if that's what Johnny says, that's what he's going to get. Nevermind the fact that little duck-foot johnny couldn't wear them without getting a custom pair. Besides what does some guy who has been fitting skates for a decade or more know? This 10 year old who has been playing for two years knows exactly what he needs to make him a star and it usually involves the most expensive option.

[sabre09923 0]

I, for one, am a kid who hasn't got much in the way of gear when it comes to hockey. I wear a lot of my brother's old stuff, like gloves, pants, and elbow pads. They fit perfectly and I really don't have any issues when it comes to mobility/performance, because, quite simply, I haven't had anything better. Living in a home that doesn't have much money compared to a lot of my teammates, I only get what I need; my parents are already paying ~2 Grand a year to play hockey, and they have little money left over for excess equipment with my brother being in college now. All the kids on my team, especially this year, have told me to get a new stick (Before that they told me to get a new helmet, and now I have an Intake) and I look at them with their new Vapor XXX Lite's and MacDaddy's and laugh. I have a better shot than all but two of my teammates, and I am also one of the best skaters on my team as well. But, I will probably be buying a tapered shaft/blade combo later this year, maybe a V10 shaft/8.0 blade combo. I do not think I need top of the line equipment, my XIX skates have held up decently skating 4-5 times a week.

As for hockey not being fun anymore? Almost all of my practices are at 9:30-ish so I get to sleep around midnight and wake up the following morning for school looking like something reminiscent of a zombie. But was practice worth it? DEFINETLY. Same goes for games, I have a 40 minute drive to the rink if I'm lucky! Sometimes it gets to an hour and a half, and if it's really far away, it would be a 2 and a half hour drive. But is any game, win or lose, worth it? The answer is always yes. Barring getting injured, getting on the ice for any time it all is a lot of fun for me. Hell, whenever I'm not on the ice (well, except for being on MSH), I get on the 'blades and skate on my street and play some ball hockey.

But also, I do agree. I've seen a lot of kids with a ton of top end gear and they do not have the skills to back it up (the proverbial guy who cannot skate to save his life but has One90 Gloves and a Stealth). I don't think there's anything you can do about them and only worry about yourself.

With that... I gotta go to practice.

[Storm 0]

My dad was a great hockey dad.

He is now in his mid seventies and I recently told him how much I've been paying for my equipment.......he gave me a blank look, got up from the table and walked away.

[BK 0]

I just got home from class and the only thing I can think of is that I started a monster with this thread. :S

Hockeymom, I didn't mean to bring attention to you (I know that your daughter just got one90s, good for her. She has seen an improvement, so more power to the both of you). I really didn't mean for this to turn into another "why so many gear whores" thread, but meant to call out the gimics that are being marketed today. Since I started posting here on msh, I have seen threads about OX inhalers, lung capacity enhancers, $30 pairs of socks, Easton's rating system, smaller butt-ends for sticks, trendy holders (please dont start that again), this steel vs that steel, performance enhancing drinks, olympic hockey socks, overpriced de-odorizors, carbon fiber butt ends, the bag that blows (Dr pun) and a slew of other things that people spend ludacris amounts of money on or base their spendings on and as Chadd said, expect a big performance boost in place of good old fashioned balls-to-the-wall working out and PLAYING hockey. I laugh my ass off when some of these threads come up and usually try to hold my tounge about making comments on them.. I'm just venting a little from that.

In general, my point was that there are too many people who think that its not a GAME and more of a SCIENCE (thank you Mack). There are people who live to play hockey and there are those who spend so much time trying to enhance their game, that its no longer a game. They live for the next THING to get them one step closer to playing what "hockey" is in their crosbeyovechkinsacic'ed-up heads.

Hockey is a GAME! When did people lose sight of that?

[mack 44]

It's like how boxing died a little when you saw how Ivan Drago trained compared to Rocky's training in "Rocky IV."

The moral of the story is old school always beats new school. Well that and Russians beat the crap out of guys named Apollo.

[Neo5370 132]

Yeah but they didn't have the same soul as Apollo and James Brown. Live short, die funky.

But on topic I hate it when people use the "sports are all politics" because maybe they are maybe they aren't. But I hear it too much from people that are disillusioned. And if someone is truly talented (as much as his or her parent wants to believe) he/she will get discovered or put on a team somwhere somehow.

And apparently this discussion is onto gear whoring. Why beat a dead horse. Mack's right old school beats new school. Sorry folks. I'd rather see someone sporting some 5030 sticks and sick hands than vapor/carbon/superlight/ultra shiny/glow in the dark junk.

However I respect everyone's right to spend their income as they see fit.

As for badkitty, hockey isn't what it used to be cuz nobody goes outside afterschool anymore to play. Internet, cable, xbox 1340bajillion, etc. When I was a kid, I couldn't wait to play street hockey EVERY day w/ my friends. I never see people doing that anymore.

[Project824 0]

In general, my point was that there are too many people who think that its not a GAME and more of a SCIENCE (thank you Mack). There are people who live to play hockey and there are those who spend so much time trying to enhance their game, that its no longer a game. They live for the next THING to get them one step closer to playing what "hockey" is in their crosbeyovechkinsacic'ed-up heads.

Hockey is a GAME! When did people lose sight of that?

Are you implying that there is something wrong with people training specifically for hockey to make themselves better? Yes, the game has been broken down to a science, we live in a society that celebrates results and achievement. While we all know the perils of the overbearing hockey/(insert sport here) parent, if the kid is willing to better himself, why not break his game down methodically and improve it? That is the most effective way to better yourself, specific and concentrated repetition.

You could rent ice 4 hours a week, or attend 2 1 hour powerskating sessions a week. Over the course of a month, 6 months, a year, which will make you a better player? Chances are during that 4 hours, however spread out, you spend a total of 15-30 minutes of it "warming up", about and 2.5-3 hours actually playing (without a specific concentration on form), and then somewhere between an 30-60 minutes messing around and taking slapshots (again, likely with poor form, and with no benefit to game situation). Not saying you would skate all 4 hours at once, but if you broke down each session, that's likely what the numbers would be.

With 2 1 hour skating sessions, you'd be pushed for the entire hour, and your efforts would be concentrated to improve your form as a skater. Over the course of 6 months that would greatly improve even the elite skater.

How about an hour of stick & puck, vs. an hour of dryland - sprints, plyos and some circuits? An hour of stick & puck is more fun, but again, you end up taking 34 breakaways at half speed, take 70 slapshots against the boards, and play a 1/4 speed game of one on one against a friend. An hour of dryland in a supervised or team situation would get you into shape pretty quick, especially if it is organized in 15-45 second intervals and the right work-rest ratio.

Given no time constraints, a player who wanted to improve that much would do it all. But unfortunately with school, work, girls, life, etc., the average kid does not have that much time. The benefit of the powerskating sessions and dryland is a much more efficient way to improve, in addition to regular team practices.

It is in fact a game, but many would argue that the game is only fun if you are good at it, or you've at least prepared yourself for it. Others need the competition and achievement of goals. Playing hours on the pond with your sister, brother and 4 kids from the neighborhood is just not enough for some people. Play for fun if that's what you like, but there's nothing wrong with those players who choose to work harder and "scientifically" than you want to.

[hockeymom 2]

I just got home from class and the only thing I can think of is that I started a monster with this thread. :S

Hockeymom, I didn't mean to bring attention to you (I know that your daughter just got one90s, good for her. She has seen an improvement, so more power to the both of you). I really didn't mean for this to turn into another "why so many gear whores" thread, but meant to call out the gimics that are being marketed today. Since I started posting here on msh, I have seen threads about OX inhalers, lung capacity enhancers, $30 pairs of socks, Easton's rating system, smaller butt-ends for sticks, trendy holders (please dont start that again), this steel vs that steel, performance enhancing drinks, olympic hockey socks, overpriced de-odorizors, carbon fiber butt ends, the bag that blows (Dr pun) and a slew of other things that people spend ludacris amounts of money on or base their spendings on and as Chadd said, expect a big performance boost in place of good old fashioned balls-to-the-wall working out and PLAYING hockey. I laugh my ass off when some of these threads come up and usually try to hold my tounge about making comments on them.. I'm just venting a little from that.

In general, my point was that there are too many people who think that its not a GAME and more of a SCIENCE (thank you Mack). There are people who live to play hockey and there are those who spend so much time trying to enhance their game, that its no longer a game. They live for the next THING to get them one step closer to playing what "hockey" is in their crosbeyovechkinsacic'ed-up heads.

Hockey is a GAME! When did people lose sight of that?

Ahhh BK, I didn't worry for a moment about my daughter getting One90's - she's 14, not 8 - and she wouldn't have had them at 8 years old. Nor would she have them, or much of the equipment she has today, if she were playing house league hockey.

As a kid, I "suffered" trying to ride in a saddle that didn't fit me right; everything was just that much harder to do. I believe your equipment should work FOR you not AGAINST you....and THAT experience is the source of my being a fanatic about fit and equipment.

So, if people are saying you buy good equipment to suddenly transform yourself into a star player, well they are delusional. I DO believe there is a difference in good equipment though.... it is not just a price tag or a marketing ploy. My daughter isn't going to become a good hockey player because of the equipment she uses - she's going to get there by, as she puts it....A Million Miles of Sweaty Unders.

As for the rest, well I don't even read the threads about OX inhalers or lung capacity enhancers or supplements and the like. Go to the gym and eat nutritionally balanced meals and who needs the other stuff?

Frankly I don't get the "old school beats new school" argument - not that I disagree with it; I don't get it. Are you talking about gym vs supplements or practice for performance vs equipment for performance?

I'd better stop before I catch Mack's attention again!!

[mack 44]

You can apply that statement to anything; it's a universal truth.