Skate Sharpening 101

[AfftonDad 88]

Wow! I better quit while I'm ahead (still have all my digits).

[AfftonDad 88]

I have a Blackstone X-01 and I check the edges with a BR-100. I am used to there being some adjustment from skate to skate, even within a particular pair. However, I just bought me a pair of Crazy Lights last week and the difference between the two skates is around 20 clicks (one skate is in the same ballpark as the rest of the skates I do and the other is around 20 clicks out). This is by far the biggest difference I have seen between two skates from a single pair. It kind of freaks me out that it is on my new $600 skates. For those of you that sharpen a lot of skates, is that an excessive amount of difference or should I not be worried about it (incidentally, only the blade is touching the holder, I have made sure of it).

Thanks.

CCM's holder is offset - try sharpening the left skate from heel to toe and report back.

I finally got to the bottom of what my problem with this ONE skate was (turns out J.R. was trying to tell me what the problem was but I wasn't smart enough to understand what he was getting at). So on my (then) new pair of skates (CCM U+CL), I always had to adjust my X-12 holder a lot on my right skate only (around 20 clicks up). I thought I had ruled out interference. Unfotuntately, I was just taking into consideration boot interference not holder interference (holder as in Tuuk/EPro). I had convinced myself that it was variation in blade thickness between the left and right skate that was causing the problem. Well I just got a new set of runners and the problem persisted so I took a closer look. Upon examination I learned that when the right skate was mounted with the toe to the right, a little rib in the runner holder was interfering with the skate holder (see the first picture). This does not happen on the left skate when mounted with the toe to the right because although the ribs are on both sides they do not stick out the same amount. (or as JR had indicated they are "offset"). I don't have the problem on any of the other skates I sharpen, only my size 10 (287) CCM U+CL. I sharpen other EPro holders (albeit smaller) and this does not happen. My previous skates, which were also CCM (Vector Pros) did not have this problem, even though they were larger (10.5), so there must have been a change in the holders between the CL and the Vector. Another pair of EPros that I sharpen that are probably around 9's don't have this problem, so the threshold must be around size 10.

Anyway... after realizing what the problem was I was confronted with what was I going to do about it. I could of course flip the right skate so that the toe was to the left (see picture 2) however, I was concerned that as much as I try to do things the same way, due to the fact that I am accelerating on the toe and decelerating at the heel in one case and the reverse in the other, this would over time cause a different amount to be ground on the toe of one skate versus the toe of the other skate. I could minimize this by periodically rotating blades between skates and/or get runners re-profiled (good idea anyway) but I decided that it would be best to remove the interference if possible. Fortunately, we have a mill at work, so I milled away a couple of millimeters on the block of the skate holder where the interference was occuring and now all is good (see picture 3).

This report should maybe go in the FBV thread since it is specific to the X-12 holder, but since I originally asked the question in this thread and since the request to "report back" was in this thread I decided to leave it here.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Yep, it usually happens in skates 8 and above.

CCM holders look like this \I - been that way since ProLites. Flipping the left boot and sharpening toe-first (or right boot heel first) alleviates the problem.

It is not specific to Blackstone holders, but specific to all types of holders that have a yoke. The ones that clamp directly to the steel are exempt.

[dc00 0]

I get a lot of ripples during sharpening. What's causing it? They will mostly go away after the final, slower pass.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Put a dab of your final pass lube on the toe of the skate, and do a pass. Do the ripples go away?

[dc00 0]

Yes, it does, mostly. It came back after a few more passes, perhaps when the lube was worn off. So what does this mean?

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Poorly-dressed wheel, and/or worn-out diamond, or loose wheel.

[dc00 0]

Thanks. I'll check on those.

Oh, just curious. Why does lube make a difference?

[cooperalls 4]

Thanks. I'll check on those.

Oh, just curious. Why does lube make a difference?

It decreases friction. Your final pass functions as much to "buff" the steel as it does to shape it. I also find using as little pressure as possible and slowing down my final pass helps to decrease chatter/ripples.

[sonsplayhockey 0]

Well, a few months of owning my X01 (is there an X01 specific thread around?) and all is going much better. I stopped using the FBV dresser and have just been using the 7/16". My travel kids are under 70lbs and seem to do better right now with that radius. I'm going to try to get them to either an FBV or 1/2" this spring when the season is over. What got me with the FBV was getting it centered and getting enough of a cut down when changing shapes. That and dressing the wheel enough when changing shaps. I just gave up on it cause it was causing aggrivation for me and my kids when I did not have the time to fiddle around. I'm better at sharpening now and can get the edges sharps smooth and level in about 10 minutes or so as I take my time. Much better than spending an hour driving to the other rink with the better pro shop.

this spring I'll bring my sharpener to the rink and then just try out different FBV cuts (I have 95/1 and 100/.5) as well as try the 1/2" round. I'll start by doing it on my own skates and then bring in the kids. One thing I learned was the pro shop was really screwing up the kids blade profiles. Both of them are off and I regret not getting them new blades back in December. My 12 year old's back end of his left skate looks good but the right skate looks like a 2' smaller profile. The 10 year old looks like the back end of his blades have a smaller profile than the front. I'm not going to mess with it right now cause he's used to it and he is a week from playoffs. My 8 year old's skates radius is noticably shorter than his team mates and I think that has alot to do with how much stability he lacks. Same deal with my 6 year old. I think hockey is too long of a season to play on hand me down blades. I'll get skates with replacable blades, have the holder & blades replaced every year or just get new skates every year. Lesson Learned (unless anyone has any better ideas).

[goblue9280 33]

I think hockey is too long of a season to play on hand me down blades. I'll get skates with replacable blades, have the holder & blades replaced every year or just get new skates every year. Lesson Learned (unless anyone has any better ideas).

I don't think any youth skates (Y6-Y13.5) have a holder with replaceable runners, at least I haven't found any, so if the profile is screwed up or you want to hand down the boot, it would mean replacing the holder. Someone in the industry maybe able to speak to the availability of replacement youth holder/runners, because I've only seen junior and senior size replacements.

[Chadd 916]

I don't think any youth skates (Y6-Y13.5) have a holder with replaceable runners, at least I haven't found any, so if the profile is screwed up or you want to hand down the boot, it would mean replacing the holder. Someone in the industry maybe able to speak to the availability of replacement youth holder/runners, because I've only seen junior and senior size replacements.

there is no market for replacement holders for youth. Cheaper just to buy new skates more often than not.

[sonsplayhockey 0]

OK,

I may just take it to the nearest rink and spend $10 to have them profiled then donate them to my Youth organization. Some of the skates are so rounded on the heals or toes that I don't think beginners would have a good experiance with them. My 2 eldest kids will now be in size 2 and 3 skates next year.

[jondrums 0]

Great thread. I just got into sharpening after buying an OLD wissota machine from a friend. It was in storage and needed a lot of work. The old style dressing arm was so crappy that I just got rid of it and designed a mount for a blackstone FBV wheel (I'm a mechanical engineer). It works great for dressing the wheel.

I did some work on the old holder so that it could be adjusted properly for side to side angle as well as height and have got some very good sharpens over the past few weeks. Its too fiddly and takes forever to dial in though.

I'm at the point now where I think I need to upgrade the holder to something which can adjust the pitch, because the holder I have can't do that and causes bad edges on front and back. I don't think it matters much, but it bothers me.

So, my question is: which holder would you guys recommend for doing my own sharpens as well as maybe a few friends?

Wissota 3D (cheap, is it good?)

X12 Tri-Lite (looks nice)

Blademaster SH2000 (can this one adjust for pitch? price? where to buy?)

Blademaster SH6000 (price? where to buy?)

[vince57 4]

to those struggling with leveling a blade in the holder and worrying about pitch an engineers DTI and stand can teach you a lot without cutting steel (theyre quite cheap on ebay), set it up touching the top edge of the blade (lever type dti may be better than a plunger one here) just in front of the wheel. By sliding the blade along as if you were grinding any error can be read on the clock face, you can also run the stylus along the blade perpendicular to the grind direction to assess the pitch of the blade. bent blades become very obvious using a dti and efforts to straighten them can be checked. Used a dti across the holder when setting my grinder up from new.

[notquitedeadyet 13]

to those struggling with leveling a blade in the holder and worrying about pitch an engineers DTI and stand can teach you a lot without cutting steel (theyre quite cheap on ebay), set it up touching the top edge of the blade (lever type dti may be better than a plunger one here) just in front of the wheel. By sliding the blade along as if you were grinding any error can be read on the clock face, you can also run the stylus along the blade perpendicular to the grind direction to assess the pitch of the blade. bent blades become very obvious using a dti and efforts to straighten them can be checked. Used a dti across the holder when setting my grinder up from new.

This.

Or more commonly known as a dial indicator. I keep one on my table at all times.

[Chadd 916]

Some of you guys make this way harder than it has to be. This isn't rocket surgery.

[jondrums 0]

to those struggling with leveling a blade in the holder and worrying about pitch an engineers DTI and stand can teach you a lot without cutting steel

yea, I have a dial indicator in a mag-base which I used to determine that my holder has pitch problems.

[notquitedeadyet 13]

Some of you guys make this way harder than it has to be. This isn't rocket surgery.

Couldn't disagree more.

It's pretty simple & makes it easier, faster & more accurate.

[vince57 4]

despite my suggestions to use a dti once i built and set the grinder i have run 2 years + on my mk1 grinder all i have ever done is make minor changes to the centre height to accommodate different types of blade width, i havent used the dti since but i do check EVERY JOB i do for alignment defects using a straight edge across the blade

once you understand the theory and how to respond and rectify various sharpening defects it is a pretty simple operation.

although even tying your shoes was once hard,

i fitted a digital tyre depth gage to my holder to measure adjustments, clicks on a commercial grinder are just that, measurements however they are incremental and if you dont have a known good value to start with getting a baseline will be problematic.

Any good machining operation starts with a dti in the machine and aligning the part to the machine, if using a vice (like a skate jig) once the vice is set usually you make sure the clamping faces are clean and aligned then jobs may be clamped with the reasonable assumption they are held true in a holding device that was checked. It is normal to check periodically in case it has suffered an impact or some other reason to be misaligned.

a piece of 3mm or 1/8" Gauge plate or ground flat stock from ebay can be used to check alignment using a dti if flat true blades arn't avaliable you can get a piece wider than a std blade to allow for more accurate pitch checks the ability to prove your mechanical alignment before removing metal is essential in the machining industry.

yes i can cut stuff then check it then adjust then cut, then check then adjust a bit more, then cut again then check, then adjust back. This costs lots of time and possibly wastes expensive skate blades.

if you are struggling to find a good setup a dti can save vast amounts of time and remain a useful tool to calibrate from or check for minor bends, usually when i have a grind wander at the toe or heel it is a bend, sometimes moving the clamp can reduce it a dti can tell me if its me or the blade thats wrong

[SAK 2]

Since when do they do surgery on rockets chadd?

[wrangler 157]

It's a common expression, combining two more common expressions, "rocket science" and "brain surgery".

[SAK 2]

C'mon wrangler I was busting his chops.

[wrangler 157]

And I wasn't busting yours?

Is the bear Catholic?

[eriks334 1]

I'm at the point now where I think I need to upgrade the holder to something which can adjust the pitch, because the holder I have can't do that and causes bad edges on front and back. I don't think it matters much, but it bothers me.

So, my question is: which holder would you guys recommend for doing my own sharpens as well as maybe a few friends?

Wissota 3D (cheap, is it good?)

X12 Tri-Lite (looks nice)

Blademaster SH2000 (can this one adjust for pitch? price? where to buy?)

Blademaster SH6000 (price? where to buy?)

Wissota 3D - $269+ship

Blademaster SH2000 - $453+ship (direct from January 2012 price list)

Blademaster SH6000 - $839+ship

Blademaster SH8000 - $779+ship

you will need to call New England Sports (Woburn, MA) to purchase anything Blademaster. I have found that they do not budge on price much. You POSSIBLY could get lucky from ebay, but used skate holders seem to hold great value, even after many years of use.

I believe the 8000 is more for portable machines. The 2000 is everyone's best friend. I like the 3000 myself, it clamps on the blade instead of the yoke going through the hole of the skate.

Never tried the Wissota 3D, Im sure it works well. But if your use to a Blademaster holder, the Wissota will always be a little different.

hope this helps

BTW........The Blackstone holders have a real nice feel to them as well, and they are great to talk to when you have questions.

(Blackstone's customer service people, not the holders....lol)