Puckmugger on epinions

[skullplant 0]

I've sent him Puckmugger pm's about certain things and every time he has gotten back to me promptly with info that has always been right on the money. That is after trying to obtain the info from MSH only to get bashed for not searching for info on that topic first, or my topic getting turned into something that does not even pertain to my original question. Some of us don't have time to search every time we need something answered. To the people who bash for not searching, sometimes wouldn't it be just as easy to just answer the question asked? I always use the search option first, sometimes you just don't get the results you need. All said, I really enjoy MSH, and I think Puckmugger is a good, intelligent hockey guy. I'm sure everyone has made mistakes describing a product at one time or another.

[thejackal 46]

i found the epinion reviews helpful in the pre-corebeam days. it's a good resource as long as you don't just look there.

[Chadd 916]

Chadd, has he really posted factually incorrect information in the vast majority of his reviews or are you being somewhat biased? And have all the instances of factually incorrect information been germane to the opinion he is expressing? For instance, take the case of the occipital lock that JR mentioned. I don't know the answer, but is it possible the CCM and NBH locks are similar, but only NBH refers to it as an occipital lock? If that were the case -- and, again, I'm making up an example -- then he'd be factually incorrect yet essentially correct about his review.

Regarding the Zorbium, he knew the designers of the helmet quite well, so I suspect he learned from them more about Zorbium than any of us here.

Last, I've said before that I like the two of you and think you'd get along quite well, but I say affectionately that I highly doubt you gave him a fair shake in your PM exchanges.

Yes he has posted factually incorrect information in the vast majority of the reviews that I have read. When you suggested that we get in contact, I brought up many of them to him and he didn't care. I would say that those errors are significant when you promote or pummel a product based on those "facts".

In regards to Zorbium, several people in the industry have backed up what we were told by the CCM guys in the past. There is no way to make a hockey helmet using this stuff. You need several inches in order to provide enough protection to gain certification. If there was a chance that the helmet would be revolutionary and potentially prevent concussions, CCM would be jumping all over themselves to promote the hell out of the helmet. Cost would be irrelevant, it would sell. The reality is that the Hefter helmet was all smoke and mirrors and your friend was part of the show.

On a side note, I'm disappointed that you've become so strident in defending a guy who we've proven several times over to be a fraud. I understand that you have a good relationship with him, but there is no defense for a hatchet job like the one he did on the vector helmet.

[TBLfan 25]

He may be upfront but he is also uninformed and with lacking information makes judgement calls and pretends that he is some sort of expert.

I'd be happy to meet him and tell him that I don't appreciate him giving out misinformation and his uneducated opinion as fact.

He's not uninformed. He was previously a manager of a hockey shop, plays hockey four times a week, and opened his own shop about 18 months ago. He is probably more informed than 98% to 99% of the people posting here.

Regarding whether he passes his opinion as fact, I don't see it. I think he passes his opinion as opinion.

Again, he's a good guy who knows hockey and wants to help people enjoy their time in the sport. The methods obviously differ, but I don't see how the goal is any different than here at MSH. Trust me, all the gear heads here that notice when Joe Sakic used a different stick in his fourth shift of the second period would enjoy shooting the breeze about hockey equipment with him.

He IS uninformed. EPP is NOT in bike helmets, yet he claims it is. EPS is the foam in bike helmets. This is ONE example of many, some of which have already been mentioned.

He was previously a manager of a shop and plays hockey... SO what? call hockeymonkey and see how much accurate information the managers know... Call 90% of shops in the US or Canada and see how much accurate information the managers know.

I know he must be some sort of friend of yours but your arguements are as flawed as his reviews. I could disect his "review" and correct his mistakes if I had the patience to waste time on that garbage but I don't. I'd rather actually HELP people that have questions as opposed to misinform people that are looking for REAL reviews.

Just out of curiosity, you say you could dissect his reviews and correct the mistakes.....So what makes you an expert? I think salmings reply to the above post shows that you are apparently not an expert on bike helmets. So then by the same token why should anyone listen to what you think you know about hockey equipment? viewed in the same light you are judging puck mugger by your credibility is now shot as well.

Personally I like his reviews. I take them with a grain of salt like any other though. He has different opinions and different expectations than I do for equipment I am sure. And nobody writes reviews who doesn't make some mistakes. I also don't think there is such a thing as a truly unbiased review. The list of places available to get any information on equipment, good bad or indifferent is pretty sparse. Some here point to his bashing Nike and vilify him for it. I actually had a bit of respect for his having the balls to say the product sucked...they did. Still do for the most part. I for one am curious to know about this dudes new shop since there are damn few around Wyoming with a clue.

A review is by definition one giving an opinion a product. If the opinion can be backed up by facts, more the better. But in the end it is still just an opinion, and opinions differ.

I never said I was an expert, but being that a non-expert can correct his reviews that just shows how little he actually knows.

BTW salming's post just confirmed what I was saying, I didn't go in detail... All that was information I already knew. I spoke in general: Bike helmets use EPS foam. I also said that EPP costs less than VN foam to make. What part of that is not true, excuse me if I forgot to post "Nearly all" bike helmets use EPS foam.

I think the proof is in the fact that chadd and I actually agree on something, you know me MUST be right... we don't agree on anything.

[Jason Harris 31]

Given the circumstances, there is a big difference between typing "A is NOT used. It's B that is used." versus "It's almost all B that is used, although some A is used." The former suggested he intentionally fabricated information, while the latter suggests he's not as well informed about a topic (he doesn't normally discuss).

If he's intentionally fabricated information, no one should listen to him. However, if he mentions a product that is different from what he is actually reviewing, and he is less knowledgeable about that tangential product, then it's up to us to determine the relevance of that mistake.

I think what too many people here have lost sight of is Scott doesn't claim to be an expert; it's the people on this board who assume he must think he's an expert because of all the reviews he's written. All his reviews reside on a website that is the ultimate in egalitarian opinions -- his reviews reside next to twelve others. I'm going to repeat myself and say it's up to us to determine the relevance of his review versus the twelve others.

On a side note, I'm disappointed that you've become so strident in defending a guy who we've proven several times over to be a fraud. I understand that you have a good relationship with him, but there is no defense for a hatchet job like the one he did on the vector helmet.

That's the thing, Chadd, he's not a fraud. He's just a man expressing his opinions. He's not claiming to be an expert, he's just trying to help people. If people don't like what he writes, they can avoid his reviews; if people do like what he writes, they can seek his reviews. It's no different than people not liking things I write, you write, Mack writes or others. All of us are just typing our opinions, and people can choose to put us on Ignore.

Let me put forth another reason why I'd defend him. Think of the Boston tradeshow and the direction we hoped to go, and why there would be time for us to do so. I trust my own judgement of people's character, and if they end up on the right side of the ledger, I'm a loyal bulldog!

[TBLfan 25]

It's such a rare occurance that it's in bike helmets that it's not neccesary to mention. I promise you that if you walk in 80% if not more bike stores that they don't have a helmet with EPP. Most people have never even seen a bike helmet with EPP. Considering that nearly every person in the US have held a bike helmet and that MAYBE 1% of them have touched a helmet with EPP, it's not even worthwhile to mention it.

Your defense of his post perfect... He implies that ALL bike helmets have EPP and he is informed. I don't mention the 1-2% of the market that has EPP and I'm the one that needs to explain why I'm not an expert on bike helmets.

*Percentages are educated guesses.

[sdcopp 1]

I think what it really boils down to is, yes, he may be the most well-intentioned guy in the world. Hell, pm me his shop address, I've been meaning to get up to the Denver area to go scouring the various Play it Again and the Player's Bench bargain closet. I'd love to make another stop, particularly since you mentioned it's a bit different.

That being said, he's put himself out there. He hasn't reviewed a few items, he has 25 pages of reviews, with a lot in hockey equipment on THE general review site out on the web. He's written a book that is published. His reviews speak in authoritative language. Though he may not claim to be an expert, he plays one online. With that sort of notice and noteriety, he has a moral obligation to be objective and fully informed. He is human, and therefore fallible. I will give anyone that benefit of the doubt. The frequency with which he makes uninformed or "political" statements is unwarranted given his following.

I find it interesting that JR and Chadd said this years AG ice line is what should've followed on the S500 and it is that good of a skate unlike last yrs attempt at the AG/XP lines. Puckmugger loved the S500, but trashed the new AG series. Seeing as how JR and Chadd have had their contacts and connections and been testing various products for several yrs now, going against the word of someone who has probably tried the skates on and done some service work and gotten secondhand reviews.

Who's opinion would you trust?

[Jason Harris 31]

Your defense of his post perfect... He implies that ALL bike helmets have EPP and he is informed. I don't mention the 1-2% of the market that has EPP and I'm the one that needs to explain why I'm not an expert on bike helmets.

Here's my take on it: Whenever anyone attacks someone else, they had better be very specific with their language. It's similar to counselors telling couples they have to learn to attack the actions and not the person. Not only do we have to be specific in the words we use with our spouse, we have to be diligent to carefully listen to the words they use. Otherwise, sleeping on the couch could get lumpy....

My point is I've read that sentence a number of times and he did not imply that ALL bike helmets have EPP. On the other hand, he certainly implied that EPP is common in bike helmets, particularly at the low end. As you've pointed out, that's not true. However, you seemed to get hung up on the absolutes in his words that actually aren't there.

I say this for two reasons. Is it germane to his review on a hockey helmet that he's incorrect about the penetration of a material in another sport's helmets, considering that website said it IS used in bicycle and skateboard helmets? I don't think it's relevant, and I suspect he didn't either, or else he would have researched a bit more and said, "EPP is used in some bicycle helmets." Unfortunately, he didn't do that, leaving an opening for you to latch onto the "absolutes," and I think you are generally a reasoned enough guy that you wouldn't have cared except for your perception of his absolutes.

Who's opinion would you trust?

I can only speak for myself, but I gather as much information as I can, then make my own decision. It's obvious others don't agree with me, but I don't see this as a referendum on JR/Chadd versus Scott. I've become friends with all three and value input from each of them, even if it turns out I make my own decision counter to theirs.

[sdcopp 1]

I can only speak for myself, but I gather as much information as I can, then make my own decision. It's obvious others don't agree with me, but I don't see this as a referendum on JR/Chadd versus Scott. I've become friends with all three and value input from each of them, even if it turns out I make my own decision counter to theirs.

You and I both know that anyone who develops their own opinion are in the vast minority. I'm not trying to bash the guy, I don't know him. Like I said before, I'd love some info on his shop as I'm only an hour south. My comments are directed at the lemmings that hear someone of any sort of clout say something is good and follow suit, regardless of whether it's good, bad, not for them, etc.

[TBLfan 25]

Ok, so you're implying that my un-formal(on a forum as opposed to a written review) post needs to be held in a higher bar than his... Whatever.

Also, although correct, a private website without proper citings(let alone not having any citings) should not be used as a source of correct information to debunk a post. I could make a website and make many outragious claims and just because I have a nice domain name and come up first in a search doesn't make everything I say credible. Dot org sites aren't considered credible in general because many are considered very biased.

[Chadd 916]

That's the thing, Chadd, he's not a fraud. He's just a man expressing his opinions. He's not claiming to be an expert, he's just trying to help people. If people don't like what he writes, they can avoid his reviews; if people do like what he writes, they can seek his reviews. It's no different than people not liking things I write, you write, Mack writes or others. All of us are just typing our opinions, and people can choose to put us on Ignore.

Yes, he does present himself as an expert on hockey equipment in his reviews. Perhaps not stating it explicitly, but via his lengthy "reviews" and technical specs listed, people get that impression from him. The biggest difference between what Mack, you or I write and his reviews is that he specifically tells people to buy or not to buy products. We don't. We suggest people check those products out for themselves. He wants to influence what people buy, we want to influence how they buy. That's a very big difference and one that I'm proud of.

[Jason Harris 31]

I understand your distinction, Chadd.

[Jason Harris 31]

Ok, so you're implying that my un-formal(on a forum as opposed to a written review) post needs to be held in a higher bar than his... Whatever.

No, I'm saying you're hearing but not listening, or, in this case, you're reading but overlooking.

You were dealing in absolutes -- ALL NONE -- while he wasn't, although on this particular issue he seemed to be dealing in majority, As an example to discredit him, you said ALL bike helmets have EPS. I then posted an example (there are more) that stated EPP is used in bike helmets, but is not as common. You then said the percentages are so small, that it wasn't worth mentioning.

Under most circumstances, you'd be right. But when you attack a guy as being a fraud and use an example that can easily be shown to back up the other guy, then those absolutes matter. If you had said, "He doesn't do enough research for his reviews. For instance, he makes it seem like EPP is a commonly used material for helmets, but maybe 2% of the helmets use it," how could anyone argue with that? But when you use words like ALL or NONE to claim he's a fraud, you need to be fair to the guy and make sure your ALLS and NONES are correct.

That's not holding you to a higher standard, since it's the same bar he'd be held to.

[TBLfan 25]

It's also a much more informal, I'm on a message board not writing a critique of his review or a review of his review. I mis-spoke at 3:00 in the morning, not taking in account of the miniscule amounts of bike helmets that actually have EPP. Believe me, if I was writing a review of anything I would NOT be writing it at 3:00am and I would use facts as well as maybe proof-reading my post.

You're nit picking at my post because I made an error in thinking who's going to know that a few out of thousands of bike helmets have EPP foam... All while defending that he wrote a formal article where he implied that EPP foam is the standard in bike helmets.

AND this has no bearing on the fact that he reviews stuff that he hasnt used. How would you feel if I said that an oggie grip is useless. It's made out of the same kind of rubber as a dildo. Use of an oggie grip may cause arthritis or Carpal tunnel syndrome. I guess some dildos might use the same kind of rubber. I guess some people that use an oggie grip might get arthritis or Carpal tunnel syndrome in their life. Therefore, that review must be accurate.

[Chadd 916]

How would you feel if I said that an oggie grip is useless. It's made out of the same kind of rubber as a dildo. Use of an oggie grip may cause arthritis or Carpal tunnel syndrome. I guess some dildos might use the same kind of rubber. I guess some people that use an oggie grip might get arthritis or Carpal tunnel syndrome in their life. Therefore, that review must be accurate.

Joe might want to use that when he pitches women's hockey teams. ;)

[Jason Harris 31]

That's what my buddy who owns a shop said, "Jason, you should take this down to F Street."

It's also a much more informal, I'm on a message board not writing a critique of his review or a review of his review. I mis-spoke at 3:00 in the morning, not taking in account of the miniscule amounts of bike helmets that actually have EPP. Believe me, if I was writing a review of anything I would NOT be writing it at 3:00am and I would use facts as well as maybe proof-reading my post.

Actually, it's interesting you say that, because I remember thinking what the hell are Chadd and TBL doing up so late??

[TBLfan 25]

I reaggravated an injury and have been having issues sleeping. I took a pain killer and was waiting for it to start working before I went to bed. I was dead tired.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

So what I don't get is that when he reviewed the 5000 and HC100, it had "top-notch" protection, but a Vector with the same material is not?

Total hatchet job.

Review the product for what it is.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

I find it interesting that JR and Chadd said this years AG ice line is what should've followed on the S500 and it is that good of a skate unlike last yrs attempt at the AG/XP lines. Puckmugger loved the S500, but trashed the new AG series.

I’d highly recommend a Graf skate over the AG line. However, if you like the fit of the Mission AG line, their XP line is probably your best skate choice. It fits the same, but is a little more solid in design.

The seam between the boot and toecap was smooth and felt seamless on the pair I tried on.

Wow.

I'm done.

[Taoism 0]

He may be upfront but he is also uninformed and with lacking information makes judgement calls and pretends that he is some sort of expert.

I'd be happy to meet him and tell him that I don't appreciate him giving out misinformation and his uneducated opinion as fact.

He's not uninformed. He was previously a manager of a hockey shop, plays hockey four times a week, and opened his own shop about 18 months ago. He is probably more informed than 98% to 99% of the people posting here.

Regarding whether he passes his opinion as fact, I don't see it. I think he passes his opinion as opinion.

Again, he's a good guy who knows hockey and wants to help people enjoy their time in the sport. The methods obviously differ, but I don't see how the goal is any different than here at MSH. Trust me, all the gear heads here that notice when Joe Sakic used a different stick in his fourth shift of the second period would enjoy shooting the breeze about hockey equipment with him.

He IS uninformed. EPP is NOT in bike helmets, yet he claims it is. EPS is the foam in bike helmets. This is ONE example of many, some of which have already been mentioned.

He was previously a manager of a shop and plays hockey... SO what? call hockeymonkey and see how much accurate information the managers know... Call 90% of shops in the US or Canada and see how much accurate information the managers know.

I know he must be some sort of friend of yours but your arguements are as flawed as his reviews. I could disect his "review" and correct his mistakes if I had the patience to waste time on that garbage but I don't. I'd rather actually HELP people that have questions as opposed to misinform people that are looking for REAL reviews.

Just out of curiosity, you say you could dissect his reviews and correct the mistakes.....So what makes you an expert? I think salmings reply to the above post shows that you are apparently not an expert on bike helmets. So then by the same token why should anyone listen to what you think you know about hockey equipment? viewed in the same light you are judging puck mugger by your credibility is now shot as well.

Personally I like his reviews. I take them with a grain of salt like any other though. He has different opinions and different expectations than I do for equipment I am sure. And nobody writes reviews who doesn't make some mistakes. I also don't think there is such a thing as a truly unbiased review. The list of places available to get any information on equipment, good bad or indifferent is pretty sparse. Some here point to his bashing Nike and vilify him for it. I actually had a bit of respect for his having the balls to say the product sucked...they did. Still do for the most part. I for one am curious to know about this dudes new shop since there are damn few around Wyoming with a clue.

A review is by definition one giving an opinion a product. If the opinion can be backed up by facts, more the better. But in the end it is still just an opinion, and opinions differ.

I never said I was an expert, but being that a non-expert can correct his reviews that just shows how little he actually knows.

BTW salming's post just confirmed what I was saying, I didn't go in detail... All that was information I already knew. I spoke in general: Bike helmets use EPS foam. I also said that EPP costs less than VN foam to make. What part of that is not true, excuse me if I forgot to post "Nearly all" bike helmets use EPS foam.

I think the proof is in the fact that chadd and I actually agree on something, you know me MUST be right... we don't agree on anything.

LOL@you agreeing with chadd.

Oh and I like the oggie/dildo analogy, almost pissed my pants laughing. Some alternative lifestyle(or female) player somewhere is thinking about a new shaft(couldn't resist) accessory that will give him the ultimate g.i.joe kung-fu grip.

[Spreedizzle 1]

You can never go wrong with any kind of Sublime reference. Well played. B)

[Jason Harris 31]

I missed the Sublime reference. Do you mean Date Rape?

[Spreedizzle 1]

I missed the Sublime reference. Do you mean Date Rape?

Sublime....off of the Sublime albumb...Track name is Caress Me Down

"And when came out it went drip drip drip

I didn't know she had the GI Joe Kung Fu grip"

Etc etc. Great song from back in my high school days. Back before he decided to follow Kurt Kobain and swallow a shotgun. At least Kobain had a reason.....if I went home to Courtney Love every night....the shotgun would look like a one way ticket out of hell.

[Oggie Grip 0]

AND this has no bearing on the fact that he reviews stuff that he hasnt used. How would you feel if I said that an oggie grip is useless. It's made out of the same kind of rubber as a dildo. Use of an oggie grip may cause arthritis or Carpal tunnel syndrome. I guess some dildos might use the same kind of rubber. I guess some people that use an oggie grip might get arthritis or Carpal tunnel syndrome in their life. Therefore, that review must be accurate.

Hey TBL Fan, you're quite a funny guy. I'm really looking forward to meeting you someday. Are you going to Vegas? Be sure to stop by. I'd like to talk with you in person.

[mack 44]

Is that a Sublime/date rape reference?