Cost of manufacturing skates

[sabre09923 0]

I understand where you're coming from, but top-end gear will not make a player perform substantially better. There are any number of things that contribute to a player's performance much more than having top-end gear, like skating mechanics and overall fitness. You can't give Average Joe S15's and expect him to skate like Gaborik or give him a XXX Lite and expect him to shoot like Souray. It just doesn't happen. Sure, it makes a small difference on your game, but it can't make an average player an all-star.

There is also a huge difference between not being able to afford high end equipment and not being able to afford equipment at all.

EDIT: In response to the last part of your last post, most of the time, pros do not wear stock skates. They often have different features than what will eventually come out on retail, especially different tongues, boot shape, and holder/steel set up.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

Let me guess, SyNergys cost $8 to make, too?

Yes, he was giving it to you for less than dealer cost.

Did I ever say that? I estimate from the info I was told that they cost 50-100$ to make if that, lets remember that they make things in bulk...

Dealer cost, who said anything about dealer? I'm talking about the manufacturing...

But those materials in those good skates is what drives the skates up. There is no way to lower the cost.

If they where that expensive to make, nodody would send you a free pair to try out...

Yeah, unless they were trying to get user feedback on the skate or something stupid like that.

So your saying that they did not already have that from guys like Danny Heatley?

Does Dany Heatley chart progress of a skate and puts it for the world to see?

[djinferno 2]

I understand where you're coming from, but top-end gear will not make a player perform substantially better. There are any number of things that contribute to a player's performance much more than having top-end gear, like skating mechanics and overall fitness. You can't give Average Joe S15's and expect him to skate like Gaborik or give him a XXX Lite and expect him to shoot like Souray. It just doesn't happen. Sure, it makes a small difference on your game, but it can't make an average player an all-star.

There is also a huge difference between not being able to afford high end equipment and not being able to afford equipment at all.

I'm not saying gear makes you a star, but admit that if I give you a better tool you will perform better, duss the reason to buy the better stuff...

The better stuff performs better, same as everything else in life...

A good tire will perform better then the cheap tire, the cheap tire will still roll but not as good

Again, I chose to use the better stuff because I play in good leagues and with my power and weight, lower end stuff does not last as long and does not perform as long...

For exemple, my shot is not that much better with a steath then with a wood stick (I still have a rocket with both) so I can use would, now dfor skates it's different, if i skate in a 5K, I can feel the sole torking under me and the boot feel sloppy, 9k feel solid and direct, so that makes a huge difference...

[DarkStar50 679]

Ok, so you have a good job(earn 80% more than John Doe.) and must have a college education. so, where in your model for making hockey "affordable" does a vendor have some new found social responsibility to make hockey "affordable?" This is a capitalist society where the you and the vendors are free to determine prices. You determine what you can afford to pay. The vendors determine their wholesale prices based on R D & D investment, cost of materials, costs of production, employee salaries to produce product, and a few other costs that add up to the final wholesale price. In HockeyUtopia, it would be wonderful if everything was "affordable." Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

[djinferno 2]

Let me guess, SyNergys cost $8 to make, too?

Yes, he was giving it to you for less than dealer cost.

Did I ever say that? I estimate from the info I was told that they cost 50-100$ to make if that, lets remember that they make things in bulk...

Dealer cost, who said anything about dealer? I'm talking about the manufacturing...

But those materials in those good skates is what drives the skates up. There is no way to lower the cost.

If they where that expensive to make, nodody would send you a free pair to try out...

Yeah, unless they were trying to get user feedback on the skate or something stupid like that.

So your saying that they did not already have that from guys like Danny Heatley?

Does Dany Heatley chart progress of a skate and puts it for the world to see?

To them he did, before you got your hands on em, he skated countless hours on em...

I'm not knocking your hustle, I think what you do is great and so does all the companies who send you stuff, don't think for a second that i'm disrespecting you, hell I wish i could do that too...

All I'm saying is that the price onf the good stuff is getting crazy and all those guys that get paid big dollars to get this done should figure out a way to keep the stuff at a price that makes sense...

I offered a solution that I think would make sense, I think they can make it happen, it's only an opinion...

I guess I wish someone would do something like Starbery does in the NBA

http://www.starbury.com

I

[sabre09923 0]

In reply to post 63:

Of course, but you shouldn't be buying ANY product that doesn't perform up to snuff. If the boot keeps torquing, buy another mid priced boot that fits, or like you said, upgrade to the 9K. You don't HAVE to shell out 4-5 bills to get a boot that doesn't torque. Does it help to have a high-end boot? Of course! It's all about finding the best fitting/performing boot in your price range. Some kids don't need a stiff boot, either.

You even reiterated the point I made with your comment about sticks. You said that you have a "rocket" of a shot with both a woodie and a Stealth. Good equipment should let you play unimpeded and have you play without any adverse effect on your game. To improve, you must work on mechanics, and no stick can improve those.

[djinferno 2]

Ok, so you have a good job(earn 80% more than John Doe.) and must have a college education. so, where in your model for making hockey "affordable" does a vendor have some new found social responsibility to make hockey "affordable?" This is a capitalist society where the you and the vendors are free to determine prices. You determine what you can afford to pay. The vendors determine their wholesale prices based on R D & D investment, cost of materials, costs of production, employee salaries to produce product, and a few other costs that add up to the final wholesale price. In HockeyUtopia, it would be wonderful if everything was "affordable." Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

Listen dude, The health of hockey is everyones responsability, If you like something, you maintain it... On my spare time, I coach kids, for free... Thats my way of giving back, I see first hand kids that wear unsuportive skates and cheap gloves and helmets... It's a shame when I know that theres better stuff out there to help and protect them... If you manufacture a sport, you should care about things like this because without the sport, you don't have a business...

Like I said, I don't have the answers but I do know that theres a problem, I will always have the pair of skates I need but hockey is bigger then me so thats where I feel a social responsibility...

Not today but one day I feel we will be saying: "Why is there not that much Hockey talent coming from such and such place anymore"

Beckham is here to make Soccer grow and trust me it will, lets keep are sport healthy

Mission is doing it a bit, I think others should follow, it does not have to be that high...

[mack 44]

This thread went to Shitville fast. Nice.

[sabre09923 0]

DJ, I think that the main problem with the rising cost of hockey is actually ice, not gear. If we should rant about costly things in hockey, it's one sheet of ice costing more than $200 per hour. Rinks are few and far between in some parts in the US, and the prices get pretty high up there. I heard a story about a AAA team in Florida that has some kids drive nearly 4 hours just for a practice. They don't play many games in their state, even, since there aren't many rinks or kids that play near them. If anything is going to hinder the growth of ice hockey, it's going to be a shortage of rinks, not expensive equipment.

[DarkStar50 679]

I'm not your dude.

I have been in the hockey business since 1978. I have seen every wave of hockey high and hockey low come and go. The game will carry on through your efforts coaching and my efforts suiting up kids head to toe in hockey gear when Mom and Dad say, he wants to play hockey. It is unfortunate that you see kids in "unsuportive(sic)skates and cheap gloves and helmets." Vendors do care about players. That is why they make different families of equipment across all price points. There is the low end product that lets the kid try out the sport. There is the high end product at the other end for players who need it and for players who can afford it. Often, that will be two different players. The product in between is great for players as they improve.

As for those kids in the ill-fitting equipment, I would bet if you asked them if they would rather not play than play in that gear, they would all say, NO, I want to play! And that is something for them to learn with and keep their fires burning for hockey. Yes, hockey is expensive. It always has been. Hey, my mom said No, we can't afford those skates more than once to me. But I still got skates and kept the fire alive to play. That is what it is all about. Once you get started, hockey is a sport for life. That's what I tell parents who are worried that it is too expensive. You never have to give up playing hockey, no matter what your age.

Vendors do care about the sport. Have you ever stopped to notice the events they sponsor? Tournaments and other events happen because vendors put the money forth to give these kids the opporunities to have these games. There are many ways vendors support the game that are indirect. Not every vendor needs to have his name associated with an event. Some prefer to act silently. Vendors will take care of the game. They have for over 50 years.

[djinferno 2]

DJ, I think that the main problem with the rising cost of hockey is actually ice, not gear. If we should rant about costly things in hockey, it's one sheet of ice costing more than $200 per hour. Rinks are few and far between in some parts in the US, and the prices get pretty high up there. I heard a story about a AAA team in Florida that has some kids drive nearly 4 hours just for a practice. They don't play many games in their state, even, since there aren't many rinks or kids that play near them. If anything is going to hinder the growth of ice hockey, it's going to be a shortage of rinks, not expensive equipment.

I share some of your opinion but the reality is, if theres no demand, theres no supply...

While i was in Atlanta, i noticed that hockey was growing, not crazaly but still... More people that get into it, the more rinks will pop up everywhere... Unlike Canada, US is more business driven so they have to make money to have ensentive to make it... I saw a rink being destroyed to make a parking lot because it was more profitable... I still attach that to high price of hockey...

In Canada, well where I live, The city runs the ice, a game will cost you on average 8 to 10 dollars per player, in Atlanta it could go up to 20...

Equipment prices has a direct effect on this...

If I chose to stop playing, and another and another and another, prices will go up per person...

I'm not your dude.

I have been in the hockey business since 1978. I have seen every wave of hockey high and hockey low come and go. The game will carry on through your efforts coaching and my efforts suiting up kids head to toe in hockey gear when Mom and Dad say, he wants to play hockey. It is unfortunate that you see kids in "unsuportive(sic)skates and cheap gloves and helmets." Vendors do care about players. That is why they make different families of equipment across all price points. There is the low end product that lets the kid try out the sport. There is the high end product at the other end for players who need it and for players who can afford it. Often, that will be two different players. The product in between is great for players as they improve.

As for those kids in the ill-fitting equipment, I would bet if you asked them if they would rather not play than play in that gear, they would all say, NO, I want to play! And that is something for them to learn with and keep their fires burning for hockey. Yes, hockey is expensive. It always has been. Hey, my mom said No, we can't afford those skates more than once to me. But I still got skates and kept the fire alive to play. That is what it is all about. Once you get started, hockey is a sport for life. That's what I tell parents who are worried that it is too expensive. You never have to give up playing hockey, no matter what your age.

Vendors do care about the sport. Have you ever stopped to notice the events they sponsor? Tournaments and other events happen because vendors put the money forth to give these kids the opporunities to have these games. There are many ways vendors support the game that are indirect. Not every vendor needs to have his name associated with an event. Some prefer to act silently. Vendors will take care of the game. They have for over 50 years.

Well I say they can do more, they can have a greater impact, thats all...

Again, only an opinion...

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

DJ, I think that the main problem with the rising cost of hockey is actually ice, not gear. If we should rant about costly things in hockey, it's one sheet of ice costing more than $200 per hour. Rinks are few and far between in some parts in the US, and the prices get pretty high up there. I heard a story about a AAA team in Florida that has some kids drive nearly 4 hours just for a practice. They don't play many games in their state, even, since there aren't many rinks or kids that play near them. If anything is going to hinder the growth of ice hockey, it's going to be a shortage of rinks, not expensive equipment.

I share some of your opinion but the reality is, if theres no demand, theres no supply...

While i was in Atlanta, i noticed that hockey was growing, not crazaly but still... More people that get into it, the more rinks will pop up everywhere... Unlike Canada, US is more business driven so they have to make money to have ensentive to make it... I saw a rink being destroyed to make a parking lot because it was more profitable... I still attach that to high price of hockey...

In Canada, well where I live, The city runs the ice, a game will cost you on average 8 to 10 dollars per player, in Atlanta it could go up to 20...

Equipment prices has a direct effect on this...

If I chose to stop playing, and another and another and another, prices will go up per person...

I'm not your dude.

I have been in the hockey business since 1978. I have seen every wave of hockey high and hockey low come and go. The game will carry on through your efforts coaching and my efforts suiting up kids head to toe in hockey gear when Mom and Dad say, he wants to play hockey. It is unfortunate that you see kids in "unsuportive(sic)skates and cheap gloves and helmets." Vendors do care about players. That is why they make different families of equipment across all price points. There is the low end product that lets the kid try out the sport. There is the high end product at the other end for players who need it and for players who can afford it. Often, that will be two different players. The product in between is great for players as they improve.

As for those kids in the ill-fitting equipment, I would bet if you asked them if they would rather not play than play in that gear, they would all say, NO, I want to play! And that is something for them to learn with and keep their fires burning for hockey. Yes, hockey is expensive. It always has been. Hey, my mom said No, we can't afford those skates more than once to me. But I still got skates and kept the fire alive to play. That is what it is all about. Once you get started, hockey is a sport for life. That's what I tell parents who are worried that it is too expensive. You never have to give up playing hockey, no matter what your age.

Vendors do care about the sport. Have you ever stopped to notice the events they sponsor? Tournaments and other events happen because vendors put the money forth to give these kids the opporunities to have these games. There are many ways vendors support the game that are indirect. Not every vendor needs to have his name associated with an event. Some prefer to act silently. Vendors will take care of the game. They have for over 50 years.

Well I say they can do more, they can have a greater impact, thats all...

Again, only an opinion...

Hockey is an elitist sport in the US. It is woven in Canadian culture, hence why it is cheaper for ice in Canada.

Look at it this way - look at Forzani and SFS all of the SMUs you see in Canada. They do very well with those lines because it brings the cost down.

[djinferno 2]

Does someone have real costs on making a product, I heard rediculous numbers in the pass but I can't prouve them so...

Also, I wonder why MSH does not open it's own hockey store, i'm sure it could be the biggest in the world...

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

I do. But no way do I share that with anyone.

Because it isn't what MSH is about...

[mrusse01 0]

How does getting rid of all the lower end gear make it cheaper to produce the top end stuff?

OK if a low end skate cost 20$ to make and you sell 100 at 120$ , you made 10000$ profit...

Now if you stop making those low end stuff and the cost of your high end stuff cost you lets say 30$ to make, (And trust me it's not twice as expensive) and you sell 100 at 200$, that 17000$ Profit

At those prices, you dont need to make that low end crap, stores can sel at 350$ to 400$ and on sale for like 250$....

By the way, I'm talking about Canadian figures here...

If your prices are competitively low, theres no need for low end stuff, make everything good quality at a lower price, you really think there a big price difference in making a lower end stick and higher end stick??? Why not stop making the cheap version and selling only the good stuff cheaper...

The key to a market is accessability, price point is if not the most important thing in marketing... If Crosby's skates where 300$ instead of 500$ they would sell more, period!

Hockey is dying because of these brands acting stupid, if my kid wants to wear what his favorite player wears to play in Canada, lets take Datsuk for exemple, 9k Skates and 9kO stick, thats going to cost me 1100$ Canadian...

Now if my kid wants to wear is favorite basketball player wears, Lets take Lebron for exemple (Bigger Icon then Pavel by the way), so shoes, 150$, Jersey, 50$, let me get the kid a nice ball for 50$, hell let me get him a Net for like 250$... And All that Is only 500$

Guess what my kid wants to play?

No offence or anything but this just doesn't make sense, and on top of everything you appear to just be making up numbers as to how much it costs to make equipment.

I don't really know where to start...but if Crosby's skates were selling for $300, guess what, they wouldn't be Crosby's skates. That's the whole point, there are greater development costs, more expensive materials, more involved manufacturing processes that go into any 'high end' product, that is why it is defined as 'high end'.

I can't comment exactly on the profit margins in the hockey business, but I will guarantee you they are not %500 or whatever you have suggested. You seem to forget that the cost of raw materials alone does not equal the cost of producing each skate. There are overhead costs, R&D, processing (they had to design and build a new machine to make the One90's? Not cheap), labour, marketing...all kinds of things.

[BK 0]

Nevermind.. I don't know if I want to get into this.

Mack said it best. This thread isn't going anywhere. Its opinion vs opinion :(

[mrusse01 0]

Not really...it's like telling Porsche to forget about the Boxster and sell their 911's for $30,000 because they will sell way way more of them.

The issue in this thread is that I think inferno is grossly overestimating the profits that companies like NBH earn. You can look at the financial statement of Nike, CCM, whoever you want, and you will see pretty clearly the kinds of profits they make in relation to revenue. They aren't making $400 profit on each skate, I'll tell you that.

[Jordan 13]

Basic, and I mean basic economics:

If there is an industry where above normal profits are being earned, it will attract new capital and participants until equlibrium is reached between supply and demand and NORMAL PROFITS ARE EARNED.

By the way, this industry hasn't exactly been generating a lot of members on the Forbes "Rich 400 List".Forbes Rich 400

In fact, I would like to know even one person who has become billionaire from the hockey business? Surely, there would be someone if everyone is making outrageous profits from it ? On the contrary, this industry has had more busts and mergers out of necessity than most.

[djinferno 2]

How does getting rid of all the lower end gear make it cheaper to produce the top end stuff?

OK if a low end skate cost 20$ to make and you sell 100 at 120$ , you made 10000$ profit...

Now if you stop making those low end stuff and the cost of your high end stuff cost you lets say 30$ to make, (And trust me it's not twice as expensive) and you sell 100 at 200$, that 17000$ Profit

At those prices, you dont need to make that low end crap, stores can sel at 350$ to 400$ and on sale for like 250$....

By the way, I'm talking about Canadian figures here...

If your prices are competitively low, theres no need for low end stuff, make everything good quality at a lower price, you really think there a big price difference in making a lower end stick and higher end stick??? Why not stop making the cheap version and selling only the good stuff cheaper...

The key to a market is accessability, price point is if not the most important thing in marketing... If Crosby's skates where 300$ instead of 500$ they would sell more, period!

Hockey is dying because of these brands acting stupid, if my kid wants to wear what his favorite player wears to play in Canada, lets take Datsuk for exemple, 9k Skates and 9kO stick, thats going to cost me 1100$ Canadian...

Now if my kid wants to wear is favorite basketball player wears, Lets take Lebron for exemple (Bigger Icon then Pavel by the way), so shoes, 150$, Jersey, 50$, let me get the kid a nice ball for 50$, hell let me get him a Net for like 250$... And All that Is only 500$

Guess what my kid wants to play?

No offence or anything but this just doesn't make sense, and on top of everything you appear to just be making up numbers as to how much it costs to make equipment.

I don't really know where to start...but if Crosby's skates were selling for $300, guess what, they wouldn't be Crosby's skates. That's the whole point, there are greater development costs, more expensive materials, more involved manufacturing processes that go into any 'high end' product, that is why it is defined as 'high end'.

I can't comment exactly on the profit margins in the hockey business, but I will guarantee you they are not %500 or whatever you have suggested. You seem to forget that the cost of raw materials alone does not equal the cost of producing each skate. There are overhead costs, R&D, processing (they had to design and build a new machine to make the One90's? Not cheap), labour, marketing...all kinds of things.

You my friend are brainwashed to think that they should be at a certain price because of who they represent...

I can agree with you about There are overhead costs, R&D, processing but even that can be brought down if you sell more...

Again, I say once all this R&D, and processing is done, they should be able to do the skate at a low cost and not always come out with something new each year, we don't need a vapor XXXXX for another 4 years... sell more, the more you sell the less the colst of one unit costs...

By the way, I put numbers to show what I meant....

Not really...it's like telling Porsche to forget about the Boxster and sell their 911's for $30,000 because they will sell way way more of them.

The issue in this thread is that I think inferno is grossly overestimating the profits that companies like NBH earn. You can look at the financial statement of Nike, CCM, whoever you want, and you will see pretty clearly the kinds of profits they make in relation to revenue. They aren't making $400 profit on each skate, I'll tell you that.

Your right, maybe I do overestimate the profits, maybe I do but for me it's getting stupid, thats all I'm saying, some how from the time it leaves the manufacture to the time it hits a retail store, if they made it for 50$ sold it to a store for 350$ and the store sells it to me for 600$...

I'm just happy my hockey playing days are more behind me then ahead...

[zingbergeur 0]

If the prices of skates were somehow "capped" at $300, the performance of skates would falter. In a true free market, we shouldn't be capping any goods or services because the market's invisible hand determines prices. Also, if prices were capped, there would be no incentive to innovate. The Soviet Union tried to set prices for goods without market influences, and it failed.

[DarkStar50 679]

How would we be better players if we used 5 year old technology? Would you want your son to wear the same exact model from 9 years old to 14 years old?

Again, more low to middle price point skates(your example)as JR stated are sold than high end skates. The market needs that price point product, especially to keep new players coming into the game at an affordable price.

Did you put your son in high end skates for his first pair?

[djinferno 2]

Basic, and I mean basic economics:

If there is an industry where above normal profits are being earned, it will attract new capital and participants until equlibrium is reached between supply and demand and NORMAL PROFITS ARE EARNED.

By the way, this industry hasn't exactly been generating a lot of members on the Forbes "Rich 400 List".Forbes Rich 400

In fact, I would like to know even one person who has become billionaire from the hockey business? Surely, there would be someone if everyone is making outrageous profits from it ? On the contrary, this industry has had more busts and mergers out of necessity than most.

Of course there not making a killing, there not getting the volume so you can't make a killing... That guy made reference to a Porsche earlyer, you are right on the first part about the Boxter VS the 911 but in a world where theres almost as many cars then people, a hockey skate does not compare...

The key is volume... What attracts volume? Price and quality...

How would we be better players if we used 5 year old technology? Would you want your son to wear the same exact model from 9 years old to 14 years old?

Again, more low to middle price point skates(your example)as JR stated are sold than high end skates. The market needs that price point product, especially to keep new players coming into the game at an affordable price.

Did you put your son in high end skates for his first pair?

of course not, but now that hes getting better and going thru skates in 2 months and playing elite level, he needs the better stuff....

Hes 6'1" 195...

[Powerfibers 8]

What about the kid who doesn't have $300 for skates?

What does he do in your world to start playing hockey?

My nephew has CCM Rapides that Hockeyworld sells for $29. He skates circles around the other mites including his cousin (my boy). Sometimes I think I'm the fool for buying my son the $120 Vectors.

Everyone can afford to buy the equipment to get playing, I think it is the league fees that keep kids out. For example, we live in Buffalo and pay good money to play mites. My nephew lives in a suburbs 2 minutes over the city line and he can play for almost nothing.

Gear is easily overcome in my opinion, it's other stuff you can't fight.

[mrusse01 0]

I suppose you have a point, if you really think that lowering the profit margins down to very very small percentages would draw in enough new players to the game and or win enough market share to generate enough sales to make it worthwhile. Would that happen? No I do not think it would.

[Reaper 0]

IMHO, it is useless to debate the end cost of product when all you take into account is the cost of materials.

If you want to talk consumer cost of a product you must take into account the cost of materials, manufacturing & labour costs, research & development costs, marketing costs, distribution & shipping costs, overhead costs for retailers and the costs related to the wages of all employees in this chain. That would be your "cost" for the product.

On top of all these costs one has to consider that companies & retailers exist to make profits and who really has the right to tell one of these entities that they can only make x amount of profit when customers are willing to pay?