Khabibulin smacks Shannon after SO goal

[TBLfan 25]

I'm soo glad that Being run into while in the butterfly isn't extremely dangerous and can lead to career ending knee injuries. Better watch out for that blocker, it can leave a bruise.

[D aka speck 0]

Did anyone notice that Shannon turned around to taunt Khabi?

What a clown!

[Dean_ 0]

Did anyone notice that Shannon turned around to taunt Khabi?

What a clown!

Yeah i noticed that too, that relly showed alot of class on Shannons part.

[QandA 0]

Did anyone notice that Shannon turned around to taunt Khabi?

What a clown!

Yeah i noticed that too, that relly showed alot of class on Shannons part.

After getting punched in the head from behind, I'd probably do the same too.

[N!! 0]

I'm soo glad that Being run into while in the butterfly isn't extremely dangerous and can lead to career ending knee injuries. Better watch out for that blocker, it can leave a bruise.

A bruise? Are you kidding me?

Look at where Shannon got punched with a hard edge. That's right at where two bones come together called the axis and atlas, also known as C1 and C2. Both of them are fairly weak because of the fact that they don't have to support much weight (compared to, for example, L4). That's where the skull is supported, and injury to the axis and atlas is extremely serious and frankly makes a severed carotid artery look like nothing. As a result, getting punched high in the back of the neck can not only be debilitating, it can be fatal.

By applying the amount of force that Khabibulin did in the manner that he did in the area that he did, it's really no different than taking a 2x4 and smacking Shannon across the base of the skull with it. That's a horrendous cheap shot that is no different than the most vicious leg whip/slew foot and is a lot closer to a Todd Bertuzzi kind of shot. That's absolutely a brutal thing to have done.

Now, I want you to tell me where the hell in that shot that Khabibulin's knee was in danger of anything, let alone something with the potential of being as serious as that. I watched it frame-by-frame and can't find a single point where I could say "See, he might suffer a knee injury here".

[Rustpot 1]

I'm soo glad that Being run into while in the butterfly isn't extremely dangerous and can lead to career ending knee injuries. Better watch out for that blocker, it can leave a bruise.

A bruise? Are you kidding me?

You've never played goalie have you? Just getting into the butterfly has the potential to blow out your knee or hip, rip a tendon, etc.

Bad move by both. Why is this thread still going? Everyone is just arguing the same thing back and forth.

Khabby sucks, Shannon should have kept control, bad call, Khabby gets pissed all around and jabs Shannon in the back of the head for probably purposefully running him, Shannon just jeers at him obviously unharmed.

Let it alone, the only thing that came out of this is a bad rep for the league and a hurt ego for Khabibulin.

[N!! 0]

You've never played goalie have you?

Actually, I have. But that's beside the point. The intimation is obviously "You've never played goalie, so you don't know what it's really like, as if one has to stick your hand into a running engine to know it's a bad idea.

Just getting into the butterfly has the potential to blow out your knee or hip, rip a tendon, etc.

If I derived pleasure from molesting a chicken, knowing that the potential was there to get a salmonella infection in my nether regions and yet continued to do it, would that make me smart or lucky?

Throw in the fact that I have actually done research on exactly what the body is doing while getting into the butterfly position (required for kinesiology, you know). The conclusion I came to is that, although there is an unusual amount of force being exerted on the medial collateral ligament, literally every muscle of the leg acts to stabilize the knee and hip and prevent the sort of force that would actually lead to a tear. In addition, done properly, there is no reason that the torque that would lead to a medial meniscus tear would exist. And, sitting here with a medial meniscus tear in my right knee, I think I know a thing or two about that as well.

A butterfly goalie must develop and maintain excellent eccentric strength through all the muscles of the leg. Bad things happen to those who don't have it.

Bad move by both. Why is this thread still going? Everyone is just arguing the same thing back and forth.

It's fun.

Khabby sucks

Agreed.

Shannon should have kept control

But it led to hilarity.

bad call

Bah

Khabby gets pissed all around and jabs Shannon in the back of the head for probably purposefully running him

Typical whining goalie who believes that he's allowed to hammer opposing forwards without penalty, but as soon as someone violates an imaginary 12-foot radius around him it's justification to try to take his head off.

Shannon just jeers at him obviously unharmed

So? As long as we're talking about "potential for a knee or hip injury", I counter with "potential to kill the guy". I'll call for a suspension based on that alone, since apparently the actual injury or lack of is the only thing that matters.

Let it alone, the only thing that came out of this is a bad rep for the league and a hurt ego for Khabibulin.

Doubt it. It didn't lead SportsCenter because it didn't involve an attack with injury or a severed artery. And if it didn't lead SportsCenter, it got stuck in the 57th minute of the show and no one watches that.

[Rustpot 1]

I wasn't saying that the media attention would give the league a bad rep, the fact that they let this situation happen without any calls damages them. Holmstrom got called for goaltender interference in a play where Giguere moved out to the lip of the crease to make contact on Homer after the puck was in the net, yet running the goalie in the shootout is allowed.

You're right, the leg is going to be used to the motion and properly supported through development and routine, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. When Legace played for the Wings last he spent a good deal of the season on IR after being run while in butterfly and screwing his knee over. DiPietro tweaked his hip in the ASG in an innocent save. Point being these guys are good at what they do, but injuries can easily occur when some unforeseen element changes their balance, position, stance, etc.

Khabby could have killed the guy, sure. It looked to me like he hit the back of the helmet just to have a little "fuck you" last word, but I didn't look to closely. Lots more dangerous plays happen daily that don't get suspended. There's no precedent from previous calls that say a goaltender should be fined or suspended for hitting a player after interference occured. You'd have to suspend every goalie that plays the Wings and cheap-shots Holmstrom whenever he's on the ice.

Should he have hit Shannon? Hell no. Should that goal count? Hell no. The refs let a bad situation happen. If you fine/suspend Khabby for retaliating you have the punish the illegal act that started it, and the league has already shown it's all about letting the shootout be controversial in any way.

[TBLfan 25]

I'm soo glad that Being run into while in the butterfly isn't extremely dangerous and can lead to career ending knee injuries. Better watch out for that blocker, it can leave a bruise.

A bruise? Are you kidding me?

Look at where Shannon got punched with a hard edge. That's right at where two bones come together called the axis and atlas, also known as C1 and C2. Both of them are fairly weak because of the fact that they don't have to support much weight (compared to, for example, L4). That's where the skull is supported, and injury to the axis and atlas is extremely serious and frankly makes a severed carotid artery look like nothing. As a result, getting punched high in the back of the neck can not only be debilitating, it can be fatal.

By applying the amount of force that Khabibulin did in the manner that he did in the area that he did, it's really no different than taking a 2x4 and smacking Shannon across the base of the skull with it. That's a horrendous cheap shot that is no different than the most vicious leg whip/slew foot and is a lot closer to a Todd Bertuzzi kind of shot. That's absolutely a brutal thing to have done.

Now, I want you to tell me where the hell in that shot that Khabibulin's knee was in danger of anything, let alone something with the potential of being as serious as that. I watched it frame-by-frame and can't find a single point where I could say "See, he might suffer a knee injury here".

First off, a punch to the face can be fatal. Elbows to the head, high flying sticks, skate blades... all can be fatal. This is my favorite claim:

By applying the amount of force that Khabibulin did in the manner that he did in the area that he did, it's really no different than taking a 2x4 and smacking Shannon across the base of the skull with it.

First off, you do not have any type of measurement at how hard Shannon was hit, nor do you have any tpe on information on how hard a human could possibly hit in that manner. It is impossible for a human to gain that much punch speed to even be close to comparable to a baseball swing. A punch by a trained fighter can barely hit 30mph(and these are elite fighters), MOST would be closer to 20mph. These are scientific measurements that have been calculated by many studies. All these studies are done with a fighter ON THEIR FEET, able to rotate their hips and put their full body into the punch, NOT a goalie punching someone from their knees. A baseball bat swung by a trained baseball player can reach speeds over 100mph. Conservative estimates puts a swinging 2X4 between 30-80mph depending on the length and the individual swinging it.

Now, you want to know how Habby was risking a knee injury by taking a hit? You want to know how 100s of goalies blow out their knee every year? Go down on your knees, rotate your hips open into the butterfly, now let a friend push you backwards softly... Now after you get up in severe pain, multiply that by however much force you think Shannon hit Habby.

[N!! 0]

First off, a punch to the face can be fatal. Elbows to the head, high flying sticks, skate blades... all can be fatal. This is my favorite claim:

And getting out of bed can be fatal, and taking a shower if you have soft water can be fatal. So can tripping over your cat, hitting your face on the counter and being knocked unconscious, then falling face-first into the water dish and drowning in 1 1/2" of water.

There's a difference between "possible" and "a much higher probability". An elbow to the head in itself is unlikely to be fatal, but it would trigger a series of events that could result in death. High sticks, same thing. Skate blades are another story.

First off, you do not have any type of measurement at how hard Shannon was hit, nor do you have any tpe on information on how hard a human could possibly hit in that manner.

This is true, but then I also don't care to calculate the probable amount of force exerted.

It is impossible for a human to gain that much punch speed to even be close to comparable to a baseball swing.

The issue isn't the speed of the punch, it's the overall amount of force exerted into a certain area. A punch by itself may not be terribly hard, but if I have brass knuckles on then it changes the equation quite a bit. The hard edge of a goalie's blocker is a LOT closer to brass knuckles than anything done with a boxing glove or barehanded would ever be.

A punch by a trained fighter can barely hit 30mph(and these are elite fighters), MOST would be closer to 20mph.

See above.

These are scientific measurements that have been calculated by many studies. All these studies are done with a fighter ON THEIR FEET, able to rotate their hips and put their full body into the punch, NOT a goalie punching someone from their knees.

Khabibulin was on his feet at the time and showed quite a bit of rotation. Watch the tape again. He goes from the hips being opened about 50 degrees to the right to closed approximately 10 degrees to the left, or roughly equal to a baseball swing in reverse.

A baseball bat swung by a trained baseball player can reach speeds over 100mph. Conservative estimates puts a swinging 2X4 between 30-80mph depending on the length and the individual swinging it.

Swinging a 2x4 by itself isn't the issue. The forward edge of a blocker, as a striking surface, is markedly similar to a 2x4. Again, we're talking about the striking surface here in addition to the speed of the punch, not one or the other.

Now, you want to know how Habby was risking a knee injury by taking a hit? You want to know how 100s of goalies blow out their knee every year?

Please present data as to just how many goalies, as you describe it, "blow out their knees every year". And that in itself doesn't matter; if a stand-up goalie suffers a knee injury, does that count?

No, I want numbers of goalies who suffer a "blown out knee", defined as an injury to a cruciate ligament or a tendon attachment, in a given year as a result of a player falling on top of them.

Go down on your knees, rotate your hips open into the butterfly, now let a friend push you backwards softly... Now after you get up in severe pain, multiply that by however much force you think Shannon hit Habby.

Shannon weighs around 170 pounds and was almost completely stopped at the time that he fell into Khabibulin's lower leg. At no time was the knee in legitimate danger of being injured as a result of the play.

Plus, the issue of Khabibulin possibly suffering a knee injury as a result of this isn't the issue at all. The issue is that he, in typical whining goalie form, came off the ice and delivered a hard shot with his blocker to an area of the body that is extremely vulnerable to an impact.

In addition, knock off the "see how you like it" stuff. There are such things as a justified reaction to a situation. The problem is that most goalies have the belief that they can go far above and beyond what would otherwise be justified. Ron Hextall chopped Kent Nilsson's knees out because he got his pads tapped with a stick. Is that a "Stand still and have your friend hit you with a hockey stick and see how YOU like it" situation? How about Arturs Irbe coming out of the crease and punching....I can't remember the guy's name...in the face? His "crime" was being within 20 feet of the net.

Here's one for you. Stand perfectly still, then have your friend swing a goalie stick upwards into the ol' twig and berries. Then see why it's awfully difficult to have sympathy in a situation involve marginal contact with a goalie.

[mack 44]

FISKING! HELL YEAH!

[TBLfan 25]

Your "calculations" are still inaccurate, you're pretending that it made contact in the perfect way... As I pointed out by stating that a LOT of things could kill you... You're looking for a perfect storm here, and you appear to think that Habby somehow made much more contact or tried to make much more contact than he did. Shannon was skating away, he barely got touched. It's not motive here, you can't prove that... It's what happened.

BTW, I want numbers of how many guys get paralyzed or die because they took a 2X4 or a blocker to the neck.

The rest of your arguement is just stupid and not worth a retort. Why the hell are you talking about Hextall? What does that have to do with anything?

[N!! 0]

Your "calculations" are still inaccurate, you're pretending that it made contact in the perfect way...

If contact had been made in the perfect way, Khabibulin would be looking at a manslaughter rap and the NHL would be leading SportsCenter, as only happens when something bizarre occurs.

As I pointed out by stating that a LOT of things could kill you... You're looking for a perfect storm here, and you appear to think that Habby somehow made much more contact or tried to make much more contact than he did.

The question is very basic. Did Nikolai Khabibulin, punch an opposing player in the area about the axis and atlas? Quite simply, there is ZERO justification for ever committing such an act. Period.

Shannon was skating away, he barely got touched.

That's a pretty wicked touch there. And had it caused injury, what would Khabibulin's defense be? "He touched me, so I went off the deep end"? "He touched me, so he deserved to be paralyzed, be left in a vegetative state, or be six feet under"?

It's not motive here, you can't prove that... It's what happened.

That's because there can be no motive. There can be no motive for doing something so unbelievably stupid and dangerous.

BTW, I want numbers of how many guys get paralyzed or die because they took a 2X4 or a blocker to the neck.

The better question is how many actually are ever in the position of having to withstand such an impact. I can point to an awful lot of racers who have died of injuries to the superior neck and base of the skull; the forces are totally different, but it still is more plausible than these alleged "hundreds of goalies annually". That's as much of a stretch as a piece of feminist literature I was handed that declared that "four million women die every year in the country from eating disorders", overlooking the basic fact that barely four million PEOPLE die in this country every year from ALL causes.

Second, answer the original question posed. You claimed "hundreds of goalies every year" who suffer debilitating knee injuries. I claimed that being struck in the back of the head and superior neck can be fatal if a hard edge is what is used to strike with when carried by a substantial amount of force, not that "hundreds of people die of this every year". Either back your point up or drop it.

The rest of your arguement is just stupid and not worth a retort. Why the hell are you talking about Hextall? What does that have to do with anything?

Unjustified reactions, that's what. Hextall was tapped by Glenn Anderson and went ballistic. Khabibulin was basically slid into at minimal speed in a normal position in a situation where the actual risk of a knee injury was outlandish. He decided to get up and deliver a brutal cheap shot. It was completely unjustified.

Now, was Khabibulin thinking "Oh, he touched me so I'm going to do something that might kill him"? Probably not. That's really beside the point. Did Bertuzzi think "I'm going to punch this guy into intensive care"? I doubt it. Did it really matter though?

Not thinking about the possible consequences of a particular action in no way excuses the action. Jimmy Boni probably never thought that backhanding an opposing player in the chest with a stick would result in death, and yet it happened.

[usahockey22 0]

[cxo 0]

+1

[Chadd 916]

N!!

This isn't the first time you've blown up a topic, I would hope that it will be the last. You're also going on mod approved posting until further notice.