Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[johnpace2 0]

I have to correct myself as I just checked my skating profile and Bob did give me the 8/14 and not the 8/13. I apologize to everyone for my mistake, as I'm sure it fueled this squabble a bit. In Bob's defense, even if he is giving the same profile to tons of other people, it is working well for me, as I've seen in improvement in my skating in just a short period of time.

I think the problem may be that when doing profiling via the internet, Bob can only go by what the person fills out on the skater questionnaire form. I may be wrong, but I would imagine that the key considerations Bob uses are height/weight, experience and position when determining a combo radius, as he obviously doesn't have the ability to watch the person skate and determine what they need on an individual basis. That is certainly not his fault, and as someone who is nowhere near a LHS that offers this service, I appreciate having the option of sending my runners to Bob.

Lohnman: the reason I asked how old your players are was because I assumed you coached kids and therefore it was unlikely that Bob would give them combo radius the same as a 225 lb fat man such as myself. :D

That's my point.

Agreed, but that's going to be the case with any sharpener by mail.

[TBLfan 25]

It's not that he's offering that service, that's a wonderful service. It's that he's making drastic changes to peoples profile, without seeing them skate AND telling them that it's going to make the better. It's going to work for some but for others it's only going to hurt.

It also appears(correct me if I'm wrong) that he's not taking the time to explain the FBV numbers so how are these guys going to go to their local guy(when fbv is available) and say "I've got a 9/16th FBV" and get exactly what they want? Both guys I talked to quoted me *hollow numbers*-FBV as what they were considering getting done. There appears to be a lot of rounding up and down with these numbers. If you told someone that a 5/8" hollow is the same as a 1/2" hollow, I'd call you an idiot. Yet it appears that with FBV more than 1 hollow can be achieved with the same sharpening. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 4 options of FBV, right?

I'm not saying that Bob is misleading them with the numbers or saying he does a bad job. BUT I believe he's doing them a disservice when he doesn't explain the numbers. The FBV "bite-angle" can be adjusted to, but I didn't get the impression that he explained it to them.

Edited January 29, 2009 by TBLfan

[johnpace2 0]

It's not that he's offering that service, that's a wonderful service. It's that he's making drastic changes to peoples profile, without seeing them skate AND telling them that it's going to make the better. It's going to work for some but for others it's only going to hurt.

It also appears(correct me if I'm wrong) that he's not taking the time to explain the FBV numbers so how are these guys going to go to their local guy(when fbv is available) and say "I've got a 9/16th FBV" and get exactly what they want? Both guys I talked to quoted me *hollow numbers*-FBV as what they were considering getting done. There appears to be a lot of rounding up and down with these numbers. If you told someone that a 5/8" hollow is the same as a 1/2" hollow, I'd call you an idiot. Yet it appears that with FBV more than 1 hollow can be achieved with the same sharpening. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 4 options of FBV, right?

I'm not saying that Bob is misleading them with the numbers or saying he does a bad job. BUT I believe he's doing them a disservice when he doesn't explain the numbers. The FBV "bite-angle" can be adjusted to, but I didn't get the impression that he explained it to them.

I hear what you are saying, but this is how I switched to a different radius...

Me: I need new steel.

Bob: Want to try a different radius? (7/13)

Me: Can you explain how this may help me?

Bob: Explains the traits of this radius.

Me: I make the decision knowing that I may need to tweak things a bit and adjustment time could be necesary.

He's not seeing me skate, but he's explaining what the radius should offer and I make the decisions.

In the case of the FBV, I think Bob and others are speaking in terms of rough equivalents... Probably because there are 500 people asking what FBV is equivalent to what traditional ROH? I doubt this will be a problem, most places that don't have a Blackstone machine (at least around here) aren't going to buy one just to do FBV sharpenings. I'd say about 90% of my teammates have no clue what their ROH is, so your target audience is small.

[pmspaul 0]

Bob just gave me a custom combo radius as well. 8/13 with a minor forward pitch and 100/75 FBV. I had no issues adjusting. I am a decent skater who already skated with the proper knee bend and posture. Does this mean it's wrong for me then, my answer is no. It just made my knee bend and stride require less effort and feel more natural, plus I got better turning without giving up stability. So maybe this is also a good setup for skaters who don't have good knee bend and posture.

It says custom combination radius, not one of a kind combination radius.

I am extremely happy with my profile.

If the same profile works for you, and other people as well, then I'd say be happy and tell Bob job well done.

Oh, and the FBV is fantastic. Good enough I bought the X02 so I could keep using it.

[djm 0]

It's not that he's offering that service, that's a wonderful service. It's that he's making drastic changes to peoples profile, without seeing them skate AND telling them that it's going to make the better. It's going to work for some but for others it's only going to hurt.

It also appears(correct me if I'm wrong) that he's not taking the time to explain the FBV numbers so how are these guys going to go to their local guy(when fbv is available) and say "I've got a 9/16th FBV" and get exactly what they want? Both guys I talked to quoted me *hollow numbers*-FBV as what they were considering getting done. There appears to be a lot of rounding up and down with these numbers. If you told someone that a 5/8" hollow is the same as a 1/2" hollow, I'd call you an idiot. Yet it appears that with FBV more than 1 hollow can be achieved with the same sharpening. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 4 options of FBV, right?

I'm not saying that Bob is misleading them with the numbers or saying he does a bad job. BUT I believe he's doing them a disservice when he doesn't explain the numbers. The FBV "bite-angle" can be adjusted to, but I didn't get the impression that he explained it to them.

The crux of your earlier argument dealt completely with your issue of people being given the same combo radius. Now you are talking about the FBV. What does one have to do with the other?

Edited January 29, 2009 by djm

[TBLfan 25]

It's not that he's offering that service, that's a wonderful service. It's that he's making drastic changes to peoples profile, without seeing them skate AND telling them that it's going to make the better. It's going to work for some but for others it's only going to hurt.

It also appears(correct me if I'm wrong) that he's not taking the time to explain the FBV numbers so how are these guys going to go to their local guy(when fbv is available) and say "I've got a 9/16th FBV" and get exactly what they want? Both guys I talked to quoted me *hollow numbers*-FBV as what they were considering getting done. There appears to be a lot of rounding up and down with these numbers. If you told someone that a 5/8" hollow is the same as a 1/2" hollow, I'd call you an idiot. Yet it appears that with FBV more than 1 hollow can be achieved with the same sharpening. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 4 options of FBV, right?

I'm not saying that Bob is misleading them with the numbers or saying he does a bad job. BUT I believe he's doing them a disservice when he doesn't explain the numbers. The FBV "bite-angle" can be adjusted to, but I didn't get the impression that he explained it to them.

I hear what you are saying, but this is how I switched to a different radius...

Me: I need new steel.

Bob: Want to try a different radius? (7/13)

Me: Can you explain how this may help me?

Bob: Explains the traits of this radius.

Me: I make the decision knowing that I may need to tweak things a bit and adjustment time could be necesary.

He's not seeing me skate, but he's explaining what the radius should offer and I make the decisions.

In the case of the FBV, I think Bob and others are speaking in terms of rough equivalents... Probably because there are 500 people asking what FBV is equivalent to what traditional ROH? I doubt this will be a problem, most places that don't have a Blackstone machine (at least around here) aren't going to buy one just to do FBV sharpenings. I'd say about 90% of my teammates have no clue what their ROH is, so your target audience is small.

And that's how it should be done. But with the two guys that have emailed Bob, that I know, it wasn't explained like you decribed(according to them). When I inquired about a specific(7/11) compound radius he flat out told me that I'd be better off with 7/13. Without any information of my skating background, height, weight, etc. I ended up getting 7/11 from another guy... In the end, I found no benefits to the "extra stability in turns" so I'm back to a standard 9' radius with my new set of steel.

As far as the explanation of the FBV offerings, there's a nice little site that blackstone set up, that offers all the information someone needs. It's not hard to pass on a link or hand someone a piece of paper with the web address.

The crux of your earlier argument dealt completely with your issue of people being given the same combo radius. Now you are talking about the FBV. What does one have to do with the other?

No it was not, I never claimed he was giving everyone the same combo radius. That was an assumption he made.

[pmspaul 0]

I'm not saying that Bob is misleading them with the numbers or saying he does a bad job. BUT I believe he's doing them a disservice when he doesn't explain the numbers. The FBV "bite-angle" can be adjusted to, but I didn't get the impression that he explained it to them.

At first, Bob didn't tell me that the "1/2" FBV" I requested was a 100/75. Maybe he assumed since it's a new technology he must try to equate it to a ROH people are familiar with. The numbers (100/75, 90/75) don't mean much to most people.

When I explained my situation that I was going to get a new sharpener to do the FBV if I liked it, then he told me that his 1/2" FBV is equal to the 100/75.

Maybe as the FBV gains popularity it'll be more important to make the customer aware of the numbers.

I can say that when I've taken the time to ask him something, he's taken the time to answer me, and quickly too.

[djm 0]

It's not that he's offering that service, that's a wonderful service. It's that he's making drastic changes to peoples profile, without seeing them skate AND telling them that it's going to make the better. It's going to work for some but for others it's only going to hurt.

It also appears(correct me if I'm wrong) that he's not taking the time to explain the FBV numbers so how are these guys going to go to their local guy(when fbv is available) and say "I've got a 9/16th FBV" and get exactly what they want? Both guys I talked to quoted me *hollow numbers*-FBV as what they were considering getting done. There appears to be a lot of rounding up and down with these numbers. If you told someone that a 5/8" hollow is the same as a 1/2" hollow, I'd call you an idiot. Yet it appears that with FBV more than 1 hollow can be achieved with the same sharpening. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 4 options of FBV, right?

I'm not saying that Bob is misleading them with the numbers or saying he does a bad job. BUT I believe he's doing them a disservice when he doesn't explain the numbers. The FBV "bite-angle" can be adjusted to, but I didn't get the impression that he explained it to them.

I hear what you are saying, but this is how I switched to a different radius...

Me: I need new steel.

Bob: Want to try a different radius? (7/13)

Me: Can you explain how this may help me?

Bob: Explains the traits of this radius.

Me: I make the decision knowing that I may need to tweak things a bit and adjustment time could be necesary.

He's not seeing me skate, but he's explaining what the radius should offer and I make the decisions.

In the case of the FBV, I think Bob and others are speaking in terms of rough equivalents... Probably because there are 500 people asking what FBV is equivalent to what traditional ROH? I doubt this will be a problem, most places that don't have a Blackstone machine (at least around here) aren't going to buy one just to do FBV sharpenings. I'd say about 90% of my teammates have no clue what their ROH is, so your target audience is small.

And that's how it should be done. But with the two guys that have emailed Bob, that I know, it wasn't explained like you decribed(according to them). When I inquired about a specific(7/11) compound radius he flat out told me that I'd be better off with 7/13. Without any information of my skating background, height, weight, etc. I ended up getting 7/11 from another guy... In the end, I found no benefits to the "extra stability in turns" so I'm back to a standard 9' radius with my new set of steel.

As far as the explanation of the FBV offerings, there's a nice little site that blackstone set up, that offers all the information someone needs. It's not hard to pass on a link or hand someone a piece of paper with the web address.

The crux of your earlier argument dealt completely with your issue of people being given the same combo radius. Now you are talking about the FBV. What does one have to do with the other?

No it was not, I never claimed he was giving everyone the same combo radius. That was an assumption he made.

You are right that you didn't explicitly state that. However, based on your questions and comments I think it was fairly obvious what you were implying.

As to the FBV, I agree that a little more explanation should/could be given with regard to what the numbers mean. It is probably going to cause some confusion in the future when FBV walks into their LHS and asks for a 1/2" FBV. However, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people could care less what the numbers mean and just want the bite that is "equivalent" to the standard radius they are familiar with. I think Bob is just trying so simplify things for those who don't care.

Perhaps Bob can attempt to set the record straight and tell everyone what FBV they are getting when someone orders the 1/2", 9/16" or 5/8" off his website.

[TBLfan 25]

That's what I don't get, Steve says that 100/75 is equal to 3/8" and 90/75 is 5/8" but I believe that people have had both done and claimed(or were told) it is equal to 1/2". Dumbing down numbers is not really the right way to do something, that's how bad info is passed along. But it's better when they atleast know what FBV they're on.

I'm still amazed that some of you can think that there's a magical answer that a questionnaire can tell you about your skates. If there was some guy that posted on here with a questionnaire about sticks that told you how long of a stick, what pattern and what flex to use, most of you guys would jump down his throat because it's "all personal preference."

I have no doubt that Bob is a quality sharpener, you don't maintain local customers without being good. BUT I don't see how letting him make big changes in your profile without seeing you skate. I DO understand someone having a problem and him adjusting it to try to solve an issue they're describing but I don't get this change for the sake of change business.

You are right that you didn't explicitly state that. However, based on your questions and comments I think it was fairly obvious what you were implying.

What I was implying was not the use of the "medium" forward pitch, 8/13 compound radius(that would be what you are claiming I implied). I was implying a common use of a compound radius with a forward pitch, in general.

[lefty57 0]

I have no doubt that Bob is a quality sharpener, you don't maintain local customers without being good. BUT I don't see how letting him make big changes in your profile without seeing you skate. I DO understand someone having a problem and him adjusting it to try to solve an issue they're describing but I don't get this change for the sake of change business.

Let me jump in for a sec ... I would think Bob has seen most every type of skater there is with his years of experience ... and he probably designed his questionaire with that experience in mind. So why would he have to see you skate, when 99.9 % of people skate like someone he's already seen ? If you fill out the questionaire accurately, you should get good results with whatever profile is recommended.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

That's what I don't get, Steve says that 100/75 is equal to 3/8" and 90/75 is 5/8" but I believe that people have had both done and claimed(or were told) it is equal to 1/2". Dumbing down numbers is not really the right way to do something, that's how bad info is passed along. But it's better when they atleast know what FBV they're on.

I'm still amazed that some of you can think that there's a magical answer that a questionnaire can tell you about your skates. If there was some guy that posted on here with a questionnaire about sticks that told you how long of a stick, what pattern and what flex to use, most of you guys would jump down his throat because it's "all personal preference."

I have no doubt that Bob is a quality sharpener, you don't maintain local customers without being good. BUT I don't see how letting him make big changes in your profile without seeing you skate. I DO understand someone having a problem and him adjusting it to try to solve an issue they're describing but I don't get this change for the sake of change business.

You are right that you didn't explicitly state that. However, based on your questions and comments I think it was fairly obvious what you were implying.

What I was implying was not the use of the "medium" forward pitch, 8/13 compound radius(that would be what you are claiming I implied). I was implying a common use of a compound radius with a forward pitch, in general.

FBV Hollows I know have myself. And I am sure more to come.

100/75

90/75

100/50

90/50

and I believe there is an 80/50

If I can just comment on the compound Radius.

IMOP if your going to do something like a 7/14.

I personally feel to much blade will disappear to quickly when sharpening.

I have only done a few and haven't had a ton of positive response. Although I am very much in agreement behind the compound radius.

[TBLfan 25]

I have no doubt that Bob is a quality sharpener, you don't maintain local customers without being good. BUT I don't see how letting him make big changes in your profile without seeing you skate. I DO understand someone having a problem and him adjusting it to try to solve an issue they're describing but I don't get this change for the sake of change business.

Let me jump in for a sec ... I would think Bob has seen most every type of skater there is with his years of experience ... and he probably designed his questionaire with that experience in mind. So why would he have to see you skate, when 99.9 % of people skate like someone he's already seen ? If you fill out the questionaire accurately, you should get good results with whatever profile is recommended.

Valid point but because you cannot count on a player to perfectly describe their skating style or level(in rec hockey). For example, one of the guys is in the beginner league(that would be equal to about E-League here) but is dominate. He THINKS he's a good skater but in reality, he's not. The other skates at a B or B+ level but doesn't do well because he doesn't shoot or puckhandle to that level. They perceive themselves compared to their peers differently. That is just the way things are. Even if you ask how long someone has played, I've coached guys that have been playing for 8 years. 8 YEARS and they've never gotten past beginner league because D-league is just too fast for them.

Now these are the levels, do you think you could compare B/B+ to Beginner?

A

B+

B

C+

C

C-

D

Beginner

FBV Hollows I know have myself. And I am sure more to come.

100/75

90/75

100/50

90/50

and I believe there is an 80/50

If I can just comment on the compound Radius.

IMOP if your going to do something like a 7/14.

I personally feel to much blade will disappear to quickly when sharpening.

I have only done a few and haven't had a ton of positive response. Although I am very much in agreement behind the compound radius.

In agreement for it or with my experience in it? I personally like the idea but it is just not for everyone. Kind of like a *insert pattern name* isn't ok for everyone.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I have no doubt that Bob is a quality sharpener, you don't maintain local customers without being good. BUT I don't see how letting him make big changes in your profile without seeing you skate. I DO understand someone having a problem and him adjusting it to try to solve an issue they're describing but I don't get this change for the sake of change business.

Let me jump in for a sec ... I would think Bob has seen most every type of skater there is with his years of experience ... and he probably designed his questionaire with that experience in mind. So why would he have to see you skate, when 99.9 % of people skate like someone he's already seen ? If you fill out the questionaire accurately, you should get good results with whatever profile is recommended.

Sorry even Bob whom I dont know to well would agree that if you saw someone skate you would be much more accurate. I make a living at doing both and I can tell somewhat from the appearance of the skate how or what maybe going on. But once on the ice you actually see them skate then you can say with 100% accuracy that that profile will be perfect. I would bet Bob would agree that he is about 85% using the questionnaire. I mean its not total rocket science however its how the skate works with the foot and so on, Arch, Heel, and the rest of the fit.

Then you throw in the proper profile and Bang you have perfection.!...and even then sometimes not!

[djm 0]

That's what I don't get, Steve says that 100/75 is equal to 3/8" and 90/75 is 5/8" but I believe that people have had both done and claimed(or were told) it is equal to 1/2". Dumbing down numbers is not really the right way to do something, that's how bad info is passed along. But it's better when they atleast know what FBV they're on.

I'm still amazed that some of you can think that there's a magical answer that a questionnaire can tell you about your skates. If there was some guy that posted on here with a questionnaire about sticks that told you how long of a stick, what pattern and what flex to use, most of you guys would jump down his throat because it's "all personal preference."

I have no doubt that Bob is a quality sharpener, you don't maintain local customers without being good. BUT I don't see how letting him make big changes in your profile without seeing you skate. I DO understand someone having a problem and him adjusting it to try to solve an issue they're describing but I don't get this change for the sake of change business.

You are right that you didn't explicitly state that. However, based on your questions and comments I think it was fairly obvious what you were implying.

What I was implying was not the use of the "medium" forward pitch, 8/13 compound radius(that would be what you are claiming I implied). I was implying a common use of a compound radius with a forward pitch, in general.

TBL, I think your point is well-taken. The fact is that people are always looking for anything that will improve their skating ability. This is evidenced by the huge interest in FBV. Similarly, a combo radius alleges to provide some sort of advantage over a standard factory radius. Thus, people are willing to make a change for the sake of change.

As someone stated above, I'm sure Bob's experience has allowed him to formulate an idea as to what combination will generally work for people based on height, weight, experience, etc. Whether it works in a small or large percentage of cases is anyone's guess. I would be a lot more skeptical if Bob wasn't willing to redo your radius free of charge if the initial one doesn't work out. In my case, the radius Bob gave me improved my skating ability. That is certainly not to say it is the ideal setup for me. In fact, I'm sure that it's not. However, given my lack of options as far as LHS's go, I feel that it's the best option I have at this point in time.

FBV Hollows I know have myself. And I am sure more to come.

100/75

90/75

100/50

90/50

and I believe there is an 80/50

OTG, if someone walks into your shop and says, "I currently use a 1/2" ROH, I want whichever FBV hollow is most similar." What do you tell them?

[lefty57 0]

I have no doubt that Bob is a quality sharpener, you don't maintain local customers without being good. BUT I don't see how letting him make big changes in your profile without seeing you skate. I DO understand someone having a problem and him adjusting it to try to solve an issue they're describing but I don't get this change for the sake of change business.

Let me jump in for a sec ... I would think Bob has seen most every type of skater there is with his years of experience ... and he probably designed his questionaire with that experience in mind. So why would he have to see you skate, when 99.9 % of people skate like someone he's already seen ? If you fill out the questionaire accurately, you should get good results with whatever profile is recommended.

Valid point but because you cannot count on a player to perfectly describe their skating style or level(in rec hockey). For example, one of the guys is in the beginner league(that would be equal to about E-League here) but is dominate. He THINKS he's a good skater but in reality, he's not. The other skates at a B or B+ level but doesn't do well because he doesn't shoot or puckhandle to that level. They perceive themselves compared to their peers differently. That is just the way things are. Even if you ask how long someone has played, I've coached guys that have been playing for 8 years. 8 YEARS and they've never gotten past beginner league because D-league is just too fast for them.

Now these are the levels, do you think you could compare B/B+ to Beginner?

A

B+

B

C+

C

C-

D

Beginner

You've coached guys for 8 years and they are still in D-league ! What kind of coach are you ?

As far as comparing levels, you always get guys playing either above their heads or playing 2-3 levels down from where they should be. So to me, level doesn't matter. One's own perception of skating ability does ... I personally had someone evaluate my skating technique before I sent the questionaire. Most guys probably don't and maybe they do think they are better than they really are. For remote work, maybe the answer is to send along a video file in addition to the questionaire.

Back to the FBV ... I would add that after about 10 skates on 90/75, I'm never going back to regular sharpening. I am noticeably faster and when

you're my age, every stride matters.

[TBLfan 25]

You've coached guys for 8 years and they are still in D-league ! What kind of coach are you ?

No, I've coached guys that have been playing hockey for years when I got them. I coach adult "beginners" some of which started at 40+ or 50+ even 60+. Some players that start will never catch up to the next level, some will get good enough to move up in a matter of 2 practices and 2 games. It's the way it goes. I had one guy that took aside for a few mins after 3 point-less games(his first of ice hockey), explained a few things and watched him score a hat trick the next game. He proceeded to get multiple point games the rest of the season and moved up to D-league. It all depends on the person, how athletic they are and how well they listen.

As far as comparing levels, you always get guys playing either above their heads or playing 2-3 levels down from where they should be. So to me, level doesn't matter. One's own perception of skating ability does ... I personally had someone evaluate my skating technique before I sent the questionaire. Most guys probably don't and maybe they do think they are better than they really are. For remote work, maybe the answer is to send along a video file in addition to the questionaire.

Exactly, sometimes you can't trust yourself. Sometimes you need to see yourself on video to know that you aren't doing something you should. That is a big part of this whole conversation we're having.

Edited January 29, 2009 by TBLfan

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

That's what I don't get, Steve says that 100/75 is equal to 3/8" and 90/75 is 5/8" but I believe that people have had both done and claimed(or were told) it is equal to 1/2". Dumbing down numbers is not really the right way to do something, that's how bad info is passed along. But it's better when they atleast know what FBV they're on.

I'm still amazed that some of you can think that there's a magical answer that a questionnaire can tell you about your skates. If there was some guy that posted on here with a questionnaire about sticks that told you how long of a stick, what pattern and what flex to use, most of you guys would jump down his throat because it's "all personal preference."

I have no doubt that Bob is a quality sharpener, you don't maintain local customers without being good. BUT I don't see how letting him make big changes in your profile without seeing you skate. I DO understand someone having a problem and him adjusting it to try to solve an issue they're describing but I don't get this change for the sake of change business.

You are right that you didn't explicitly state that. However, based on your questions and comments I think it was fairly obvious what you were implying.

What I was implying was not the use of the "medium" forward pitch, 8/13 compound radius(that would be what you are claiming I implied). I was implying a common use of a compound radius with a forward pitch, in general.

TBL, I think your point is well-taken. The fact is that people are always looking for anything that will improve their skating ability. This is evidenced by the huge interest in FBV. Similarly, a combo radius alleges to provide some sort of advantage over a standard factory radius. Thus, people are willing to make a change for the sake of change.

As someone stated above, I'm sure Bob's experience has allowed him to formulate an idea as to what combination will generally work for people based on height, weight, experience, etc. Whether it works in a small or large percentage of cases is anyone's guess. I would be a lot more skeptical if Bob wasn't willing to redo your radius free of charge if the initial one doesn't work out. In my case, the radius Bob gave me improved my skating ability. That is certainly not to say it is the ideal setup for me. In fact, I'm sure that it's not. However, given my lack of options as far as LHS's go, I feel that it's the best option I have at this point in time.

FBV Hollows I know have myself. And I am sure more to come.

100/75

90/75

100/50

90/50

and I believe there is an 80/50

OTG, if someone walks into your shop and says, "I currently use a 1/2" ROH, I want whichever FBV hollow is most similar." What do you tell them?

Just for a trust factor i would say 100/75 as they would have more issue not being able to stop than having a little to much bite. Either way if they dont like it come back and no charge!

[jcsynergy 0]

TBL:

So you contact Bob about a profile, he provides his suggestion / opinion and you chose to ignore. You go to another person, have them do the profile you think it should be...and when it does not come out as you expect, somehow Bob get implicated?

Granted, I have used Bob's sharpening for a long time now and agree that an in person evaluation would likely be best, but he service does work. And, if you call him, he does give his time to give you his best, which in more than I can say for many LHS. And I would bet, that after he spends time with you and you express your dissatisfaction, you would not have to issue a dispute on your charge card to get your money back.

Guess Bob must have to many satisfied customers and be one of the top dogs ... who some folks want to knockdown a peg or two.

edit - to fix phat finger problem

Edited January 29, 2009 by jcsynergy

[TBLfan 25]

Yes, because the radius in the rear was too "stable" if that's what he wants to call it. It killed my slow speed turning radius over the standard 9'. If I would have gone with what was suggested, I would have been worse off. It felt like I was back on goalie skates.

[Ivan 1]

It took FOREVER to get the Lube Tube working. changed the dauber a few times. Had to smack it a bunch to get even a drop on the blade. Finish is MUCH better now.

Lube Tube or Fine Shine?

[JR Boucicaut 3795]

Let's get back to talking about FBV and X01/X02.

I picked up some Fine Shine/Lube Tube at the show and did a pair when I got back. God, I love that stuff.

[cbart 1]

That's what I don't get, Steve says that 100/75 is equal to 3/8" and 90/75 is 5/8" but I believe that people have had both done and claimed(or were told) it is equal to 1/2". Dumbing down numbers is not really the right way to do something, that's how bad info is passed along. But it's better when they atleast know what FBV they're on.

I'm still amazed that some of you can think that there's a magical answer that a questionnaire can tell you about your skates. If there was some guy that posted on here with a questionnaire about sticks that told you how long of a stick, what pattern and what flex to use, most of you guys would jump down his throat because it's "all personal preference."

I have no doubt that Bob is a quality sharpener, you don't maintain local customers without being good. BUT I don't see how letting him make big changes in your profile without seeing you skate. I DO understand someone having a problem and him adjusting it to try to solve an issue they're describing but I don't get this change for the sake of change business.

You are right that you didn't explicitly state that. However, based on your questions and comments I think it was fairly obvious what you were implying.

What I was implying was not the use of the "medium" forward pitch, 8/13 compound radius(that would be what you are claiming I implied). I was implying a common use of a compound radius with a forward pitch, in general.

TBL, I think your point is well-taken. The fact is that people are always looking for anything that will improve their skating ability. This is evidenced by the huge interest in FBV. Similarly, a combo radius alleges to provide some sort of advantage over a standard factory radius. Thus, people are willing to make a change for the sake of change.

As someone stated above, I'm sure Bob's experience has allowed him to formulate an idea as to what combination will generally work for people based on height, weight, experience, etc. Whether it works in a small or large percentage of cases is anyone's guess. I would be a lot more skeptical if Bob wasn't willing to redo your radius free of charge if the initial one doesn't work out. In my case, the radius Bob gave me improved my skating ability. That is certainly not to say it is the ideal setup for me. In fact, I'm sure that it's not. However, given my lack of options as far as LHS's go, I feel that it's the best option I have at this point in time.

FBV Hollows I know have myself. And I am sure more to come.

100/75

90/75

100/50

90/50

and I believe there is an 80/50

OTG, if someone walks into your shop and says, "I currently use a 1/2" ROH, I want whichever FBV hollow is most similar." What do you tell them?

Just for a trust factor i would say 100/75 as they would have more issue not being able to stop than having a little to much bite. Either way if they dont like it come back and no charge!

So I would imagine then that you would recommend 90/75 if I asked for a 9/16 equivalent?

[jcsynergy 0]

Yes, because the radius in the rear was too "stable" if that's what he wants to call it. It killed my slow speed turning radius over the standard 9'. If I would have gone with what was suggested, I would have been worse off. It felt like I was back on goalie skates.

Thanks for the explanation. Now I, think I get it - the objective of the combo profile is to give turn with the front and glide with the back. The advent of FBV, gives you the glide portion and the mono profile can be tailored to a persons agility.

[jimmy 194]

That's what I don't get, Steve says that 100/75 is equal to 3/8" and 90/75 is 5/8" but I believe that people have had both done and claimed(or were told) it is equal to 1/2". Dumbing down numbers is not really the right way to do something, that's how bad info is passed along. But it's better when they atleast know what FBV they're on.

I'm still amazed that some of you can think that there's a magical answer that a questionnaire can tell you about your skates. If there was some guy that posted on here with a questionnaire about sticks that told you how long of a stick, what pattern and what flex to use, most of you guys would jump down his throat because it's "all personal preference."

I have no doubt that Bob is a quality sharpener, you don't maintain local customers without being good. BUT I don't see how letting him make big changes in your profile without seeing you skate. I DO understand someone having a problem and him adjusting it to try to solve an issue they're describing but I don't get this change for the sake of change business.

You are right that you didn't explicitly state that. However, based on your questions and comments I think it was fairly obvious what you were implying.

What I was implying was not the use of the "medium" forward pitch, 8/13 compound radius(that would be what you are claiming I implied). I was implying a common use of a compound radius with a forward pitch, in general.

No one is "dumbing down" numbers. When I first spoke to Steve at Blackstone, he had only 2 FBV's and the way he explained them to me was that the 100/75 had bite in the 3/8 to 1/2 range and the 90/75 had bite in the 5/8 to 3/4 range. I checked my notes that I took while speaking with him, that's exactly what he told me. I'm assuming he used this description to cover a wide range of hollow equivalents as those 2 FBVs were the only avail. I've been very clear to my customers that the FBV 1/2 that's on the order section of my site gives a bite in the 3/8-1/2 range. I call it 1/2 because what else can we call it when it has a range and is not a direct crossover to a single hollow. 100/75 don't mean squat to anyone. We need to make this easier to understand. This is new technology and hard for even the advanced gearhead to understand, especially when most don't even understand regular ROH's. We'll make adjustments as more info is avail. What I do know is, that those skaters who are skating on 1/2 or deeper hollows, adapt very nicely to the 100/75.

As for recommending radius and pitch on feedback from the skater, that's just something I've been able to do after having done tens of thousands of radius. In most cases I don't need to see them skate, my evaluation form gives me most of what I need. If I have to make adjustments, I will. In a perfect world, seeing someone skate would be optimal, but not always necessary. I have a lot of test skaters that I use to evaluate, and I watch them skate before and after i apply different settings, so I have a real good idea what works for certain level skaters and what doesn't. In fact I have 5 skaters on FBV's who don't even know they are on them. I evaluate them weekly. If you don't agree or don't like what we do, don't use our service. No one is forcing you to do anything. So just skate on your 9' and be satisfied. I don't advertise on MSH, I don't push anyone on MSH, I don't promote on MSH. In fact, if you have a professional sharpener near you that does what I do, I recommend you use them. I don't know what your agenda is or what you have against me or our service, again, I didn't approach you or try to get your business, you contacted me. Just go play hockey.

[TBLfan 25]

You have spoken your peace, I have spoken mine. JR asked us to get back on topic and I believe that's in the best interest for both of us. Have a fantastic night.