Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[Chadd 916]

Anyway, as far as edges and movement, I could see no negative - in fact it looke dlike he was more agile on on the FBV sharpening than a regular one (hard to tell).

FBV really has nothing to do with agility.

[Ahriman 1]

To those who own the x01 or x02:

I'm looking at the financials behind either machine and what the break even is.

And scenarios you ran through before buying one (i.e. on a personal level, it would take X number of sharpenings to break even).

-or- are you charging teammates for sharpenings, etc. How much...

Or was a payback not really a factor and it is just convenient (and fun) to do your own sharpenings?

Thanks

I went with X02 just thinking that I would have more and more people wanting the FBV, and thus I would prefer the heavier duty of the 2 portables. I wasn't worried about breakeven or profitability. I do not charge people to try out the FBV, but if they like it, I'll charge $3-5 to sharpen depending on how much I like them.

I knew how to sharpen skates, and since moving here I haven't been able to find a place I trust to do a good job. So I wanted to just do them myself for my family of 4 and some of the kids I coach. If sharpening other people's skates makes me enough money to pay for wheels and spinners, then it's all good.

My experience so far, if you can do a good job sharpening, word spreads fast.

Make sure if you are charging people that you have the proper city, state and federal business licenses, and report your profits to the IRS and your state. If you charge, you are no longer a home sharpener, you are a business. You don't want to get caught doing it under the table or without licenses. As soon as your LHS finds out you are, they'll drop a dime to the IRS, etc. You definitely don't want that.

You're LHS is also run by the mob? Seriously yes these are possibly consequences but seriously I think that kind of caution is overkill. In that respect the dude who brings in cases of soda to work and asks a quarter a can is also running a business but I don't think the IRS is ever gonna ask for all the recipes for the transactions, even if someone did call them.

[Chadd 916]

To those who own the x01 or x02:

I'm looking at the financials behind either machine and what the break even is.

And scenarios you ran through before buying one (i.e. on a personal level, it would take X number of sharpenings to break even).

-or- are you charging teammates for sharpenings, etc. How much...

Or was a payback not really a factor and it is just convenient (and fun) to do your own sharpenings?

Thanks

I went with X02 just thinking that I would have more and more people wanting the FBV, and thus I would prefer the heavier duty of the 2 portables. I wasn't worried about breakeven or profitability. I do not charge people to try out the FBV, but if they like it, I'll charge $3-5 to sharpen depending on how much I like them.

I knew how to sharpen skates, and since moving here I haven't been able to find a place I trust to do a good job. So I wanted to just do them myself for my family of 4 and some of the kids I coach. If sharpening other people's skates makes me enough money to pay for wheels and spinners, then it's all good.

My experience so far, if you can do a good job sharpening, word spreads fast.

Make sure if you are charging people that you have the proper city, state and federal business licenses, and report your profits to the IRS and your state. If you charge, you are no longer a home sharpener, you are a business. You don't want to get caught doing it under the table or without licenses. As soon as your LHS finds out you are, they'll drop a dime to the IRS, etc. You definitely don't want that.

You're LHS is also run by the mob? Seriously yes these are possibly consequences but seriously I think that kind of caution is overkill. In that respect the dude who brings in cases of soda to work and asks a quarter a can is also running a business but I don't think the IRS is ever gonna ask for all the recipes for the transactions, even if someone did call them.

If you're running a business, do it legally. He also left out potential zoning issues in some areas.

[pmspaul 0]

If you're running a business, do it legally. He also left out potential zoning issues in some areas.

I don't know where any of us suggested we did or would do this as a business. I specifically said I sharpened for my family and some of the kids I coach. I also help out some friends. Getting a few bucks to recover some of my costs involved does not constitute operating a business. I don't need "permission" from the government (or LHS) to grind steel in my basement and I sure as hell wouldn't invite them into my life over a matter of $100.

I went to a friends house for the superbowl. We all chipped in money to cover beer and food for the party. I guess he didn't realize he needed the health department to serve food and a liquor license as well.

[Griff 2]

Got my X02 on friday and set it up in the back of the shop here and did my skates and a buddies with the 90/75. The fbv is great and I can't wait to use it in a more competitive setting on monday night. Thanks to J.R. and Drewhunz for talking to me about it in Vegas and thanks to the Lady I talked to at blackstone, super helpful and very nice.

[Jordan 13]

**He also left out potential zoning issues in some areas. **

Oh please.

You are allowed in virtually every single jurisdiction to run a home based, sole proprietrship without being incorporated or licensed.

Of course the IRS would expect you to declare your income from it. It is more likely that one would run into trouble with a local homeowner's association's bylaws than with state or federal regulations.

Get over it; sharpening for a few friends, and by the way, charging them to cover costs does NOT constitute a business.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Jordan

[Ivan 1]

Ivan,

I think I was generally exerting too much pressure so thank you for that tip. and for the video I was looking at this one... http://www.portableskatesharpener.com/blac...ning_video.html

it's on the main page showing the X02 model just at the right of the 1:46min video you've sent me. you'll see "click here to view our training video"

on this video the guy did say the final pass should be made in "half the speed of the regular passes" for myself I was captivated by what I saw at that moment so that I was pretty sure I had heard in "half the time of the regular passes" which would be a faster final pass. that's my mistake.

I was curious to what lead me to believe the final pass should be faster so I looked at this part of the video several times and I took some notes.

in the sharpening process segment the blade touches the disk for the 1st pass is done in 3.68secs

in the knowing when the blade is sharp segment the blade touches the disk for the 1st pass in 4.23secs 2nd pass 3.32secs 3rd pass 3.71secs.

in the final pass segment the blade touches the disk for 2.88secs

so on this video the final pass is actually faster then all the above previous passes. the narration doesn't match the example on this case.

the final pass on the video you're reffering to is done in 9.30secs.

as for the guy not looking at what he's doing video from TBLfan, he's done his last pass in 21.48secs.

Don't sweat it You will learn over time. You've got a great machine/technology.

[jimmy 194]

**He also left out potential zoning issues in some areas. **

Oh please.

You are allowed in virtually every single jurisdiction to run a home based, sole proprietrship without being incorporated or licensed.

Of course the IRS would expect you to declare your income from it. It is more likely that one would run into trouble with a local homeowner's association's bylaws than with state or federal regulations.

Get over it; sharpening for a few friends, and by the way, charging them to cover costs does NOT constitute a business.

Actually zoning issues are more of a problem for home based businesses than you would imagine. It's very hard to run a home based business, any home based business, where customers come to the location. Trust me, I've done it, or tried to do it. In most cases you are limited to just a few per day, or restricted. Most towns cities frown on lots of traffic in a residential neighborhood. Your neighbors wont like it either. Sole proprietors still need to be registered with the state, and need a Federal Tax ID. And income is income,you must report it, regardless if you are small scale. Taking money from friends to sharpen skates does make you a business. If you want to do it from home, just do it right. Look up the requirements, then follow them. Simple as that. I was naive many years ago and not up to speed on the rules. Sure making some $$ on the side is cool, until someone you are stealing business from finds out you are doing it under the table. You don't want to deal with that hassle.

[Chadd 916]

Get over it; sharpening for a few friends, and by the way, charging them to cover costs does NOT constitute a business.

I'm telling you what the law says, I really don't care if you obey it or not. It's important that advice given here is correct and accurate, especially regarding the law.

If you are charging people, it is a business.

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

as for the guy not looking at what he's doing video from TBLfan, he's done his last pass in 21.48secs.

WITH ONE HAND!

That "guy not looking" is JR. haha.

;)

[hcm 0]

I would appreciate if someone could give some technical feedback on this question.

when a blade gets sharpened with the 100/75. if you take a finger or your thumb and pass it from the inside out across one of the edges "from the interior to exterior". can you try and describe me what you are normaly suposed to feel after a fresh sharpening ?

thank you

[Spreedizzle 1]

I would appreciate if someone could give some technical feedback on this question.

when a blade gets sharpened with the 100/75. if you take a finger or your thumb and pass it from the inside out across one of the edges "from the interior to exterior". can you try and describe me what you are normaly suposed to feel after a fresh sharpening ?

thank you

Not to sound like a smart ass or anything......but sharp edges. ;)

[hcm 0]

well I need to know and kind of fast so any response is a good thing thank you. I'll tell you how it feels to me when I sharpen them. I don't feel the edge grabbing my thumb at all when feeling it from the inside going towards the outside of the edge, it feel very flat and dull, the only thing I notice is about a 1/64th inch of raised edge "very small" so definitely not feeling sharp. I can feel it grabbing and sharp when I do the opposite only from the outside in.

I'm putting my 15y old son on these and I haven't had a chance to try it myself. The feedback I get from him is that it's faster and more gliding, not much surprised there because of the flatness but also says the edges looses grip for braking or turning very fast and much faster then on regular 1/2 inch hollow. basically that's why I'm trying to figure out if I'm doing the job right. for example if you're suposed to feel 1/32th inch or more of an edge I'm definilty doing something wrong.

[SAK 2]

Sounds like you need to hand hone. It should feel razor sharp. Give it a nice hone to keen the edge.

[Chadd 916]

If you're simply going across the top of the edge you aren't going to feel as much as you would with a 1/2" hollow. One of the guys on my team doubted the sharpening when I did his skates last week, until he got on the ice. As for losing grip, are you talking about during a game or over the lifetime of the sharpening? I have found that the 100/75 needs to be refreshed more frequently that a "standard" sharpening. I believe it's because it's on a razor-thin line trying to give grip and glide in one sharpening.

Make sure you are getting the blade centered on the wheel and just live with having to do the skates a bit more often. It's not a big price to pay for the performance.

[Spreedizzle 1]

If you're simply going across the top of the edge you aren't going to feel as much as you would with a 1/2" hollow. One of the guys on my team doubted the sharpening when I did his skates last week, until he got on the ice. As for losing grip, are you talking about during a game or over the lifetime of the sharpening? I have found that the 100/75 needs to be refreshed more frequently that a "standard" sharpening. I believe it's because it's on a razor-thin line trying to give grip and glide in one sharpening.

Make sure you are getting the blade centered on the wheel and just live with having to do the skates a bit more often. It's not a big price to pay for the performance.

I agree with you with the edges needing more frequent sharpenings. Even on the harder Rocket Runner steel, I find myself needing to run them across the wheel again after 3-4 hours of skating. That being said though, very few passes are needed to bring the edges back to perfect.

[Jordan 13]

If you are charging people, it is a business

Taking gas money from your buddy doesn't make you a taxi service.

Chadd: The IRS disagrees with you....we may as well present what the law actually says:

IRS article: Is it a Business or a Hobby?

FS-2007-18, April 2007

The Internal Revenue Service reminds taxpayers to follow appropriate guidelines when determining whether an activity is a business or a hobby, an activity not engaged in for profit.

In order to educate taxpayers regarding their filing obligations, this fact sheet, the eleventh in a series, explains the rules for determining if an activity qualifies as a business and what limitations apply if the activity is not a business. Incorrect deduction of hobby expenses account for a portion of the overstated adjustments, deductions, exemptions and credits that add up to $30 billion per year in unpaid taxes, according to IRS estimates.

In general, taxpayers may deduct ordinary and necessary expenses for conducting a trade or business. An ordinary expense is an expense that is common and accepted in the taxpayer’s trade or business. A necessary expense is one that is appropriate for the business. Generally, an activity qualifies as a business if it is carried on with the reasonable expectation of earning a profit.

In order to make this determination, taxpayers should consider the following factors:

Does the time and effort put into the activity indicate an intention to make a profit?

Does the taxpayer depend on income from the activity?

If there are losses, are they due to circumstances beyond the taxpayer’s control or did they occur in the start-up phase of the business?

Has the taxpayer changed methods of operation to improve profitability?

Does the taxpayer or his/her advisors have the knowledge needed to carry on the activity as a successful business?

Has the taxpayer made a profit in similar activities in the past?

Does the activity make a profit in some years?

Can the taxpayer expect to make a profit in the future from the appreciation of assets used in the activity?

The IRS presumes that an activity is carried on for profit if it makes a profit during at least three of the last five tax years, including the current year — at least two of the last seven years for activities that consist primarily of breeding, showing, training or racing horses.

If an activity is not for profit, losses from that activity may not be used to offset other income. An activity produces a loss when related expenses exceed income. The limit on not-for-profit losses applies to individuals, partnerships, estates, trusts, and S corporations. It does not apply to corporations other than S corporations.

Deductions for hobby activities are claimed as itemized deductions on Schedule A (Form 1040). These deductions must be taken in the following order and only to the extent stated in each of three categories:

Deductions that a taxpayer may take for personal as well as business activities, such as home mortgage interest and taxes, may be taken in full.

Deductions that don’t result in an adjustment to basis, such as advertising, insurance premiums and wages, may be taken next, to the extent gross income for the activity is more than the deductions from the first category.

Business deductions that reduce the basis of property, such as depreciation and amortization, are taken last, but only to the extent gross income for the activity is more than the deductions taken in the first two categories.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Jordan

[monoclub 5]

I am looking at one for my small pro shop, in which case I will look at selling the "red" machine. Hopefully someone on here can answer the following:

How do the costs for the consumables compare with running a standard machine, ie. number of sharpenings you get from each stone and spinner, their costs vs the same number of sharpenings and costs with the standard set up?

Is it easier for rookies to sharpen skates on this machine?

If customers still want the old ROH style of sharpening how difficult is it to reinstall the radius arm? (I haven't had much feedback on the Figure and Goalie skates question I posted earlier).

Cheers

Hey TBL, thanks for postin that link of the one arm , no look bandit on youtube. I too had no idea who he was when I made my comment, took him all of 5 mins (and I am 8hrs ahead!) to send me a message in MSH bustin my ----- for it!

[hcm 0]

Thank you very much for your inputs.

««It should feel razor sharp" "I believe it's because it's on a razor-thin line»»

I need to check with a shop doing FBV hopefully not to far away from where I live because I may not be getting the razor sharp thin edges on the blades I've done. but it may be difficult to understand what each of us are trying to say without seing the result on hand.

would you happen to know if there're any in the Montreal area or near?

btw I'll go and try them myself next week so I'll be in a better position to comment.

Edited March 2, 2009 by hcm

[Jordan 13]

Okay...had my son's skates done today (FBV..90/75)..

Sharpener says that even though the the square says that the edges are level, he can see by eye that they are not level.

He "accomplishes" this by holding the skate up to his eye and looks down the blade. If the edge on each side in 0.75 of one one thousandth of an inch, how could he detect that by eye? I think that is beyond the accuracy level that the human eye is capable of detecting, not to mention accounting for getting the blade perfectly perpendicular when holding it by hand; however, I ask the expert sharpeners here...what gives:

i) go by eye on FBV??

or

ii) go by mechanical device, square/level??

Edited March 2, 2009 by Jordan

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

The same sharpener who did them says they're uneven by eye, or is this someone else who is saying this? I'm assuming it is the latter.

Well, here's the thing - if they used a Quick Square and the magnetic angle (the piece that goes on the blade) is scored, then the edges will sit in the grooved part and will always look level when in fact it isn't. I always put electrical tape on mine so that the actual metal part never gets scored.

But, the human eye can't pick out 1/1000". Then again, almost all skaters can't feel 1/1000". But as a sharpener, it is our job to remove all doubt and make sure it is dead on.

[Too Old 1]

I did notice after a drop-in game tonight on the 100/75 that there seems to be a VERY slight area I can feel on the edges. I may lightly hit them with a stone. A couple times I did lose an edge but the ice was awful when we got onto it.

[Jordan 13]

It was the sharpener that was doing them at the time.

He was saying to me that his eye was more dependable than the square, then showed me how the square read level, but he knew better. Then started making all kinds of adjustments to the tri-lie based on that. When I questioned his methodology...well, he got a little testy, particularly when I asked him to go by the square rather than his magic eye.

I get the part about if the square getting damaged, that it could give you an incorrect reading...I just couldn't imagine being able to see it with the naked eye.

Thanks

Edited March 2, 2009 by Jordan

[Ahriman 1]

Alright, well I'm finally curious enough to give up sharpening my own to try this new fangeled sharpening out, does anyone know somewhere in the twin cities that runs a FBV set up yet? Hell at this point I'm considering picking up a spare set of steel to mail out to.... somewhere... to try it out.

[Neal 41]

Alright, well I'm finally curious enough to give up sharpening my own to try this new fangeled sharpening out, does anyone know somewhere in the twin cities that runs a FBV set up yet? Hell at this point I'm considering picking up a spare set of steel to mail out to.... somewhere... to try it out.

Dave's up in Fridley is the only location I know of. They only have the 90/75 and 100/75 spinners.