Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[Demangone 0]

Place in pittsburgh that offers FBV. Real nice guy too.

Hockey N'at

102 Lexington Ave

Aspinwall, PA 15215

(412) PUCK-GUY

I haven't dealt this guy yet, seems to be really big on the synthetic ice and is never open. Do you know how much he charges for FBV sharpening?

[english15x 3]

I haven't dealt this guy yet, seems to be really big on the synthetic ice and is never open. Do you know how much he charges for FBV sharpening?

$8.00 FBV

$6.00 Traditional

Hours:

Wed, Thr, Fri 12 - 6

Sat, Sun 12-3

He is there a lot there though. Just call ahead.

Edited February 10, 2010 by english15x

[NuggyBuggy 0]

If you're looking for a cheap pair, try Harbor Freight. This one's hard to beat for $20.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Disp...?itemnumber=895

Starrett is nice if you can afford it and need it every day, but for what we're doing these Cen Tech's are fine.

Thanks, it doesn't look like Harbor Freight ships out of the US. I might pick up this one, since I have some Bessey clamps waiting for me at the store anyways.

It does metric, fractional and decimal imperial, which seems like a nice feature. Hopefully it will come in handy some other time. I'll drop by their store and if I can find something that is purely mechanical, though, I'd probably pick that up instead. These look cheap (for a 6-pack!) but I can't tell if they give fractional and decimal imperial measurements.

Edited February 10, 2010 by NuggyBuggy

[AfftonDad 88]

NuggyBuggy:

A few things I have noticed and/or learned since getting my X-01 and learning how to sharpen.

1. You can't see much hollow on an FBV sharpening. It looks mostly flat. The fangs are MUCH MUCH smaller than in the Blackstone pictures, which are drawn in a greatly exaggerated manner for emphasis. The "edges" area on the spinner and the wheel for that matter, is a much larger area than on the blade so you are going to see the shape much easier on the spinner and the wheel than you are going to on the blade. Try using the 1/2" spinner that came with the sharpener just to convince yourself. You'll see the hollow then.

2. You need to dress a little more when changing from one spinner to another (especially from ROH to FBV and vice versa) than you do if you are sticking with the same spinner. This is because you are basically just "touching it up" when you are dressing with the same spinner whereas you are changing the shape of the dress when you are changing spinners.

3. For whatever reason, at least with the mini FBV spinners that I have had so far, I don't get as much bite as the same setting "commercial" spinner at the LHS. I suspect that it is differences in the tolerances that the mini-spinners are made at compared to the regular spinners. I have simply stepped up to a spinner with more bite to compensate for this.

4. You can't (at least I wouldn't want to) sharpen skates without a magnetic square. I am very picky about getting my edges perfectly even. And I have learned that while you might be able to get away with not making adjustments when doing the same skate or similar weight skates over and over (with the upgraded holder that is... all bets are off with the standard holder), when you switch from child skates to adult skates or vice versa the difference in weight is going to slightly change the angle at which the skate touches the wheel and affect the eveness of your edges, causing you to have to make adjustments. I went my whole life without knowing about "even edges" and never knew that they were not necessarily getting them even at the shop. More often than not, when I get the opportunity to check the edge eveness on a freshly sharpened pair of skates from the two local shops that I used to use all the time, I find that the edges are pretty dramatically uneven. And more often than not, the people at the shops do not check the edges. I'm sure that there are shops that check evey time, but the two that most people that live near me go to unfortunately do not.

5. One sign that your wheel definately isn't dressed properly is if the skate "hops" as you try to sharpen it (the passes should feel smooth, not jumpy). This is due to the wheel and arbor combination being "out of round" and generally only happens when you change a wheel. The converse is not necessarily true however (not hopping does not guarentee that your wheel is properly dressed). One way to MAKE SURE that your wheel is fully dressed is to make a black line covering the edge of the wheel with a marker and then dress until the line is completely gone. HOWEVER, I DON"T RECOMMEND DOING THIS FREQUENTLY because it is overkill and will use up both your wheel and your spinner much more quickly. However, it was helpful to me in the begining to be able remove that variable of "is the wheel fully dressed" (I really burnt through my first couple wheels though!)

6. As you sharpen, you can get a clue as to what is going on with the edges. For example, If you use your edge checker and determine that the top edge at the heel is too high and the bottem edge at the toe is too high and you make adjustments to the front pitch wheels to lower the heel a little and raise the toe a little, as you make your pass you will see a brighter line of sparks on the top edge of the wheel as you go through the heel which will transition to a brighter line of sparks on the bottom edge of the wheel as you pass through the toe. This is the wheel "knocking down" the edges as it sharpens. On an already "sharpened" pair of skates that I am just trying to even up the edges on, it usually takes me around three passes to make that bright line "go away" indicating that the edge has been modified as desired.

Hope I said something that you can use.

[jsykes 35]

Anyone know of anyone in the DC area that does this? I'd like to give it a try. The local pro shops I've tried havent even heard of it.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

AfftonDad,

Thanks so much for that advice. There are certainly more than a few things there that I found very useful.

I do wish I could compare results using the 1/2" spinner to those using an FBV spinner, but unfortunately I had them swap the 1/2" for another FBV spinner (at extra cost), so I only have 2 FBV spinners. Your point about the exaggeration on the Blackstone FBV drawings is well-taken. Is it your opinion that one wouldn't be able to see separation of edge/flat if I held a straight edge to the runner and then held the two up to light ?

I ended up buying a digital caliper and am going to first check the width of the runners. If the runners on my beater skates are considerably more narrow than those on my own skates, I may just bite the bullet and start working on my own skates.

I did end up buying a magnetic square, the Blademaster one. I was able to figure out how to adjust it to get edges even.

As for running through wheels quickly - I bought the accessory kit and an extra spinner so I have one wheel for each of two spinners. When I took the first wheel off, I was shocked to see how much of it I had already used up just experimenting :o. Your idea of marking up the edges of the wheel and grinding down until they're gone is brilliant and I will definitely try it.

I will also start paying more attention to exactly where the sparks are coming from as I sharpen.

Thanks again for your reply. I'm going to re-read carefully once I am back in front of my X01 this weekend !

NuggyBuggy:

A few things I have noticed and/or learned since getting my X-01 and learning how to sharpen.

1. You can't see much hollow on an FBV sharpening. It looks mostly flat. The fangs are MUCH MUCH smaller than in the Blackstone pictures, which are drawn in a greatly exaggerated manner for emphasis. The "edges" area on the spinner and the wheel for that matter, is a much larger area than on the blade so you are going to see the shape much easier on the spinner and the wheel than you are going to on the blade. Try using the 1/2" spinner that came with the sharpener just to convince yourself. You'll see the hollow then.

2. You need to dress a little more when changing from one spinner to another (especially from ROH to FBV and vice versa) than you do if you are sticking with the same spinner. This is because you are basically just "touching it up" when you are dressing with the same spinner whereas you are changing the shape of the dress when you are changing spinners.

3. For whatever reason, at least with the mini FBV spinners that I have had so far, I don't get as much bite as the same setting "commercial" spinner at the LHS. I suspect that it is differences in the tolerances that the mini-spinners are made at compared to the regular spinners. I have simply stepped up to a spinner with more bite to compensate for this.

4. You can't (at least I wouldn't want to) sharpen skates without a magnetic square. I am very picky about getting my edges perfectly even. And I have learned that while you might be able to get away with not making adjustments when doing the same skate or similar weight skates over and over (with the upgraded holder that is... all bets are off with the standard holder), when you switch from child skates to adult skates or vice versa the difference in weight is going to slightly change the angle at which the skate touches the wheel and affect the eveness of your edges, causing you to have to make adjustments. I went my whole life without knowing about "even edges" and never knew that they were not necessarily getting them even at the shop. More often than not, when I get the opportunity to check the edge eveness on a freshly sharpened pair of skates from the two local shops that I used to use all the time, I find that the edges are pretty dramatically uneven. And more often than not, the people at the shops do not check the edges. I'm sure that there are shops that check evey time, but the two that most people that live near me go to unfortunately do not.

5. One sign that your wheel definately isn't dressed properly is if the skate "hops" as you try to sharpen it (the passes should feel smooth, not jumpy). This is due to the wheel and arbor combination being "out of round" and generally only happens when you change a wheel. The converse is not necessarily true however (not hopping does not guarentee that your wheel is properly dressed). One way to MAKE SURE that your wheel is fully dressed is to make a black line covering the edge of the wheel with a marker and then dress until the line is completely gone. HOWEVER, I DON"T RECOMMEND DOING THIS FREQUENTLY because it is overkill and will use up both your wheel and your spinner much more quickly. However, it was helpful to me in the begining to be able remove that variable of "is the wheel fully dressed" (I really burnt through my first couple wheels though!)

6. As you sharpen, you can get a clue as to what is going on with the edges. For example, If you use your edge checker and determine that the top edge at the heel is too high and the bottem edge at the toe is too high and you make adjustments to the front pitch wheels to lower the heel a little and raise the toe a little, as you make your pass you will see a brighter line of sparks on the top edge of the wheel as you go through the heel which will transition to a brighter line of sparks on the bottom edge of the wheel as you pass through the toe. This is the wheel "knocking down" the edges as it sharpens. On an already "sharpened" pair of skates that I am just trying to even up the edges on, it usually takes me around three passes to make that bright line "go away" indicating that the edge has been modified as desired.

Hope I said something that you can use.

Edited February 11, 2010 by NuggyBuggy

[cdoug55 0]

Anyone know of any place on Long Island that does it? WOuld be curious to try it.

[AfftonDad 88]

I do wish I could compare results using the 1/2" spinner to those using an FBV spinner, but unfortunately I had them swap the 1/2" for another FBV spinner (at extra cost), so I only have 2 FBV spinners. Your point about the exaggeration on the Blackstone FBV drawings is well-taken. Is it your opinion that one wouldn't be able to see separation of edge/flat if I held a straight edge to the runner and then held the two up to light ?

I have drawn representations of the FBVs and ROH hollows to scale for a 0.110 inch blade. You can see the doc here:

http://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&...2Y2ZTc1NjFmYTY2

I have tried the straight edge and can't see much gap.

As for running through wheels quickly - I bought the accessory kit and an extra spinner so I have one wheel for each of two spinners. When I took the first wheel off, I was shocked to see how much of it I had already used up just experimenting :o. Your idea of marking up the edges of the wheel and grinding down until they're gone is brilliant and I will definitely try it.

I tried using different wheels for different spinners at first, but then I realized that when a wheel goes onto the arbor in a different orientation than it did last time, you get the wheel hop situation again and have to do a pretty substantial redress to get the hopping to stop. So I decided (along with advice from some of the people on this board) that it wasn't worth it to have different wheels for different spinners. I considered making a mark on the arbor and a mark on each wheel so that I could get the wheel on the arbor in the same orientation each time, however I haven't tried this yet to see if I can get it back on repeatably enough to eliminate the hop.

I will also start paying more attention to exactly where the sparks are coming from as I sharpen.

FYI... the sparks I was refering to that you can see as you are "knocking down" the edge are actually in the area of the wheel surface, not the plume of sparks to the left.

Edited February 11, 2010 by AfftonDad

[chiefs17 2]

AfftonDad, nice job on the scale drawings, as you can see, not much wiggle room when it comes to the FBV. If your blades are less than .110" it's got to be absolutely perfectly aligned or you may not see any edges.

You're also right about the wheel hop. I no longer use a separate wheel for each spinner. My whole table will vibrate if I don't have the wheel in a certain orientation. I can see the results in the blade finish too, lots of little ridges.

I have drawn representations of the FBVs and ROH hollows to scale for a 0.110 inch blade. You can see the doc here:

http://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&...2Y2ZTc1NjFmYTY2

I have tried the straight edge and can't see much gap.

I tried using different wheels for different spinners at first, but then I realized that when a wheel goes onto the arbor in a different orientation than it did last time, you get the wheel hop situation again and have to do a pretty substantial redress to get the hopping to stop. So I decided (along with advice from some of the people on this board) that it wasn't worth it to have different wheels for different spinners. I considered making a mark on the arbor and a mark on each wheel so that I could get the wheel on the arbor in the same orientation each time, however I haven't tried this yet to see if I can get it back on repeatably enough to eliminate the hop.

FYI... the sparks I was refering to that you can see as you are "knocking down" the edge are actually in the area of the wheel surface, not the plume of sparks to the left.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

I have drawn representations of the FBVs and ROH hollows to scale for a 0.110 inch blade. You can see the doc here:

http://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&...2Y2ZTc1NjFmYTY2

I have tried the straight edge and can't see much gap.

Well, that is fascinating. Thank you for that. I bought some calipers and plan to measure the width of my runners tonight, but now I see that I might have done everything right and still not be able to see anything.

I tried using different wheels for different spinners at first, but then I realized that when a wheel goes onto the arbor in a different orientation than it did last time, you get the wheel hop situation again and have to do a pretty substantial redress to get the hopping to stop. So I decided (along with advice from some of the people on this board) that it wasn't worth it to have different wheels for different spinners. I considered making a mark on the arbor and a mark on each wheel so that I could get the wheel on the arbor in the same orientation each time, however I haven't tried this yet to see if I can get it back on repeatably enough to eliminate the hop.

Wheel hop... I've seen mention of this in a few posts in this thread, but couldn't find an explanation here or elsewhere as to what it is. Can someone enlighten me, and should I have the cover open when dressing to see this ?

FYI... the sparks I was refering to that you can see as you are "knocking down" the edge are actually in the area of the wheel surface, not the plume of sparks to the left.

Thanks for the clarification. While I was trying to figure out what was going on, I would actually try to sight the length of the runner while sharpening to see what was going on. I'll definitely pay more attention.

[chiefs17 2]

Wheel hop discussed here.

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index...mp;#entry684900

And here.

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index...mp;#entry739626

And here.

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index...mp;#entry693741

It's basically a suspect arbor that is out of round that causes a wheel hop. You might need to mess with the grinding wheel placement if you are seeing a vibration. I've had decent luck with re-positioning the grinding wheel to get the vibration to go away.

Well, that is fascinating. Thank you for that. I bought some calipers and plan to measure the width of my runners tonight, but now I see that I might have done everything right and still not be able to see anything.

Wheel hop... I've seen mention of this in a few posts in this thread, but couldn't find an explanation here or elsewhere as to what it is. Can someone enlighten me, and should I have the cover open when dressing to see this ?

Thanks for the clarification. While I was trying to figure out what was going on, I would actually try to sight the length of the runner while sharpening to see what was going on. I'll definitely pay more attention.

[kenneth 5]

just watching some speed skating right now and i'm curious if anyone had adopted FBV yet.

[Gummer12 134]

Speed Skating uses a different style of sharpening

[tamtamg 12]

just watching some speed skating right now and i'm curious if anyone had adopted FBV yet.

no need, considering they use a completely flat grind on their blades.

[Gummer12 134]

Well, I suppose they Do use the FBV...but to an utmost Extreme. It's all done by hand. I'll see if I can find a video.

here ya go

Edited February 15, 2010 by wex12

[AfftonDad 88]

Wheel hop... I've seen mention of this in a few posts in this thread, but couldn't find an explanation here or elsewhere as to what it is. Can someone enlighten me, and should I have the cover open when dressing to see this ?

Sorry, I was at a tournament that my son was in in Chicago this weekend so I didn't see this until now... If the surface where the grinding wheel and the arbor (the thing the wheel sits on) meet is not perfectly flat and aligned (due to machining and/or assembly error) then the wheel will move up and down slightly and because it is canted a litle bit it will also cause the wheel to act as though it is not perfectly round. If you could slow it down and look down at the wheel it would appear to wobble slightly (I suppose a wobble could also result due to the hole in the grinding wheel not being perfectly centered). At any rate, the spinner will "take out" these imperfections in the setup in both the up and down aspect (assuming things aren't REALLY out of wack) and the "out of round" aspect. However, the correction that has been made is dependent on the wheel remaining in the exact position in relation to the arbor that it was when the dressing was performed. If you have this situation on your sharpener and you simply loosen and rotate your already dressed grinding wheel on the arbor, the next time you go to sharpen a pair of skates it is likely it will feel like the skate is hopping as you make passes. This is because the wheel is no longer perfectly round relative to it's new orientation and the dressing is moving up and down relative to it's new position. You will see a lot of "fish scale" on the blade and I would imagine this would mess up the edges quite a bit as well because dressing on the wheel would be effectively moving up and down during the passes. It sounds like Chiefs17's was probably worse than mine because he reported excessive vibration in the sharpener that I fortunately haven't experienced. Simply not moving my grinding wheel between dresses has been enough of a solution in my case.

[NoFear1419 0]

Anyone know of any place on Long Island that does it? WOuld be curious to try it.

the rinx does it

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

Steve's maintaining a blog chronicling the service station Blackstone has set up at Vancouver 2010.

http://behindthescenes2010games.blogspot.com/

[Fro_ride 0]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but Steve and the guys are using a new Flat bottom "C" goalie cut at the Olympics....

[Law Goalie 147]

I don't think it has been, and I'm damned interested in that. The only thing Steve mentioned in the blog is that Tim Thomas is now on FBV - though he didn't say what cut, just that "it is a wicked edge we put him on." (Feb.18)

I had understood that they were just intending to widen the FBV cut in proportion to the wider goalie steel (eg. 115/50) - I didn't realise they were actually looking at a different geometry. Who's using the 'FBC' at the Olympics?

Personally, I don't think FBV needs to be modified for goalies. I've been using 100/50 and I love it. Oykib's on 100/75 and he's loving that too. The adaptation period was more or less in line with what others have posted: couple hours' hard skating.

[pricer 0]

Has anyone else had the FBV done with the Blackstone machine, then had some one do them with the adapter for bladmasters, Fleming Gray, etc. What was your feeling on the difference, if there was one.

[Fro_ride 0]

I don't think it has been, and I'm damned interested in that. The only thing Steve mentioned in the blog is that Tim Thomas is now on FBV - though he didn't say what cut, just that "it is a wicked edge we put him on." (Feb.18)

I had understood that they were just intending to widen the FBV cut in proportion to the wider goalie steel (eg. 115/50) - I didn't realise they were actually looking at a different geometry. Who's using the 'FBC' at the Olympics?

Personally, I don't think FBV needs to be modified for goalies. I've been using 100/50 and I love it. Oykib's on 100/75 and he's loving that too. The adaptation period was more or less in line with what others have posted: couple hours' hard skating.

Timmy T....

[Law Goalie 147]

Ah, so he did give Thomas the new 'FBC'.

[furlanitalia 1]

I used the blademaster one and felt like there was no bite on my edge. All the guys at the hockey shop recommended it but I like the FBV

Edited February 23, 2010 by furlanitalia

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

Ah, so he did give Thomas the new 'FBC'.

Huh?