Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

Original Six???

Is that you Charlie?Chuck?

How is the weather back there in Woburn, Mass., is it "wicked awesome"?

Call off the hounds...it's not them.

[Mikej411 2]

Way too much emphasis on equipment managers. Just ask Ray Martinique, the only 1st round draft pick who never made it to the NHL because his equipment manager thought he new better about how Ray should have his skates sharpened than Ray wanted. I recently atteneded an outing where a x-NHL manager sharpened 50 pairs of skates for the event, and most skaters were falling and slipping from the poor job. Some managers are experienced and do a good job, others not so well, and others who are old school and not willing to change.

I wasn't emphasizing the importance of the opinion of the equipment manager as to which sharpening is better. What I meant by that was, it would be nice to here more from them on how many players on their NHL team use ROH vs FBV. Currently I know of 2 that commented on this, and both said only 1 player from each team is on FBV

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

But what Jimmy is saying makes sense. There are NHL EQMs who aren't using it because they're in bed with another supplier/sharpening method, which means that that team's player won't even have access to it (eg. Erik Cole was going to a local NC shop to get it done b/c his EQM didn't believe in it), not to mention, pro players are creatures of habit who are going to stick with what got them there.

In a nutshell, don't base your decision on someone else's acceptance, or lack of. You'll find out that there are other factors that have absolutely nothing with the actual product.

[Chadd 916]

Cole was taking multiple pairs of skates/steel to the shop too, not just his own.

The other thing is that FBV requires a little more accuracy from the sharpener and there are a few NHL EQ guys that are not good at all in that regard.

[SydNap 25]

Speaking of accuracy, I've had noicing cut 4 pairs of fbv blades for me, and each one feels exactly the same. I feel like I'm cheating with how consistent the blades feel week after week. Thx Jimmy!

[AfftonDad 88]

I would bet that with all the dinero that pro's make, some of the guys that have EQMs that won't do FBV probably own their own sharpeners just so they can do it themselves.

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

I would bet that with all the dinero that pro's make, some of the guys that have EQMs that won't do FBV probably own their own sharpeners just so they can do it themselves.

Not during the season.

David Perron owns a F-02-SPIN so that he can do his in the summer. So does Matt Cooke.

[Mikej411 2]

Interesting quote from Pens EQM. Said few players used it before but no longer do.

Dana Heinze ‏@RealDanaHeinze 24 Mar

@dweb012 We do use FBV We did have a few players on it. Now only Matt Cooke@ 100/50. Again it's all up to the players -

[Original Six 1]

I finally located the University of Ottawa study: http://www.health.uottawa.ca/biomech/lab/docs/ISBS2009-MK.pdf

It is a quick read...nowhere near as comprehensive as the Brock study and hardly anything I'd describe as earth shattering or irrefutable scientific proof, but it is positive.

[jimmy 194]

I finally located the University of Ottawa study: http://www.health.uottawa.ca/biomech/lab/docs/ISBS2009-MK.pdf

It is a quick read...nowhere near as comprehensive as the Brock study and hardly anything I'd describe as earth shattering or irrefutable scientific proof, but it is positive.

Read the study, two FBVs I don't recognize and which are not on Blackstones website, the 80/2 and a 105/05? SAK, what are these?

[SAK 2]

Read the study, two FBVs I don't recognize and which are not on Blackstones website, the 80/2 and a 105/05? SAK, what are these?

Its been a long time since I have read that study, it was the first of many. It is cool to be reminded of how we started with it. When we initiated the study, we really were experimenting with the differences in shapes. We knew that the 90/75 worked well however we had to decide on 2 other shapes the University would use for the study. We decided to go to different extremes with the 80/2 and 105/05. It was a good decision because the data we got back gave us a lot of direction to go in with the different shapes, including the latest A-trap. Thanks for the reminder of that study. As far as those shapes go Jimmy, I probably could get you them. The 80/2 provides a lot of stability, there is just a lot of tang height. The 105/05 Is a bastard to sharpen on a hockey blade as there is not much room on the blade vs the flat......

[AfftonDad 88]

Ok I'll bite... what's an A-trap?

[Chadd 916]

Ok I'll bite... what's an A-trap?

For goalies, asymmetrical hollow

[SAK 2]

Ok I'll bite... what's an A-trap?

wasn't sending a line in the water.....assumed that it was widely known my bad.

[AfftonDad 88]

wasn't sending a line in the water.....assumed that it was widely known my bad.

I didn't mean that you were fishing or anything negative... As an owner of one of your portables, I am extremely interested in every word you post on here and when you say something I don't understand I want to learn what you meant.

[SAK 2]

I didn't mean that you were fishing or anything negative... As an owner of one of your portables, I am extremely interested in every word you post on here and when you say something I don't understand I want to learn what you meant.

Its pretty cool. When working with goalies there has been a lot of times they want to have more bite on the inside edges, what we did is take a FBV and make the inside edge have more bite than the outside edge while maintaining the equal edges. When the goalies skate on it they have equal edges and really don't have that awkward feeling of one edge lower than the other anymore. We than were testing it on players and are finding out that the inside edge is more predominantly used than the outside edge and are starting to look at the effects, that's for another day however Jagr is having some fun with that. My best advise is for you guys to have fun with this, try different things it will help you in different ways some speed, some agility, some confidence in turns.......the idea is to never stop getting better and if you can do that by changing to a different cut ROH or FBV go for it. Its an awesome game that you can hopefully play for a long time.

[McDougalfaschnitzer 32]

Ever since hearing about the A-Trap I, my brother, and a lot of our goalie students are interested in trying it out. I'm looking forward to being able to get one of the spinners for it to try out.

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

I posted the A-Trap graphic in the downloads repository a couple of months back. However we're having issues with that at the moment.

That discussion was here - http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php/topic/62142-goalie-skate-sharpening-issue/

[Original Six 1]

Since the Ottawa study I found was just "the first of many, and in my mind not terribly convincing, I'd still very much appreciate seeing a copy of the latest and greatest study?

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

Why don't you just try it and convince yourself that way?

I didn't read the study, either, nor has anyone else on it.

[jimmy 194]

Ever since hearing about the A-Trap I, my brother, and a lot of our goalie students are interested in trying it out. I'm looking forward to being able to get one of the spinners for it to try out.

They need 2 spinners, one for the left, one for the right. 14 different settings available.

Why don't you just try it and convince yourself that way?

I didn't read the study, either, nor has anyone else on it.

I agree totally, just try it, if you like it better, there you go. Study complete.

[Original Six 1]

I've tried it and have experienced no difference between 1/2 ROH and 100/50 FBV... no better, no worse. That said, I can't say for a fact that the reason I haven't noticed any difference isn't attributable to the sharpener's skills or lack there of, old/worn spinners being used beyond their useful life, the wheel not being dressed often enough, my own skating style/ability, etc., etc. I would simply like to see some scientific evidence supporting FBV before I take the plunge and spend a few thousand dollars on a new sharpener... and then spend even more money trying one spinner after the next until I find the right one. Perhaps some folks can afford to take a leap of faith on the word of "God knows who" on a forum, but I can't. It is not "study complete" for me until I actually read a compelling study conducted properly by a reputable body of knowledge. I first posted on 3/25 asking if someone could share the study and here we are on 4/4 talking about A-Traps and such, and I'm still waiting for someone to pony up a study that makes a compelling case for FBV. I'm not trying to stir anything up on this forum or cause anyone any grief, I'm simply doing my research before making a significant investment; I'm planning to buy the machine...I wouldn't be wasting my time asking for this to save $10. on a skate sharpening.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Original Six

[danno25nh 3]

Original six- I'd argue that like most things hockey, all the studies and papers in the world will mean nothing to the majority of players. For hockey players, perception is reality. If a player feels that the compound radius with FBV and special blade sauce works better than ROH no amount of science will change his mind. It's all about feel and perception.

Why not try different sharpenings until you get the one you like and buy a machine and accessories that will do that particular grind?

[Original Six 1]

I appreciate the suggestion, but different sharpenings is exactly the problem... they are almost always a little different from the previous visit, even when I ask for exactly the same thing. This is why I'm considering replacing my ROH sharpener with my own FB sharpener; I simply don't get consistent quality at any of the shops in my area offering FBV. I'll just reach out directly to Blackstone and ask them to send me the study they so often refer to as "proof" of their technology.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Original Six

[Chadd 916]

Frankly, I don't know how people can't feel a difference with FBV. I was convinced that it was all marketing and not going to be useful, I was wrong. It took all of three strides to be convinced and I am not the worlds greatest skater, as anyone who has seen me skate will be happy to confirm.