It's October

[mrusse01 0]

While agreeing that EVERYBODY would want to have the LA Manny is Boston, particularly during the playoffs, compare the records before and after Manny. 55-43 (.561) before and 40-24 (.625) after. I think it's safe to assume the Manny saga was a distraction.

Oh come on, you and I both know that doesn't wash because their schedule was much much easier towards the end of the season.

That article you linked is making the case that by trading Manny the Red Sox were in effect not putting the best team on the field (and that includes whatever gains you see from other players who are apparently now happier that Manny is gone), the author there argues that the Red Sox had to get rid of Manny almost on principle.

Your argument seems to be that the Red Sox were actually a better team without Manny because even though he is a great hitter, he wasn't playing like one in Boston, and with him gone things went smoother in the clubhouse, etc, to the point where it made up for the difference in his bat over Bay's.

My argument is that the Red Sox screwed up. There's no doubt they took a gamble by waiting to see on Manny's options before this season, and that's a gamble they ended up losing, plain and simple. Management's role is to manage the team, and that includes the very peculiar personality of one very talented right handed hitter. They couldn't do that, ended up joining the long line of people who got outsmarted by Scott Boras, and are left sitting at home right now instead of being in the World Series.

Where are the Dodgers sitting? The all-powerful Manny didn't get them into the World Series, either. Just wait until Manny decides he wants out of his next destination. Great hitter, and here's the important part, when he wants to be.

People don't get outsmarted by Boras, they get outfucked. The guy is slimy to the hilt.

People just say they got fucked by Boras when what they really mean is 'he outsmarted us....again'. He's an agent, how is he screwing anybody by getting the biggest and best deal for himself? He's not, he's doing exactly what his client is paying him to do - get the most money. It's somehow 'slimy' unless you are the guy he happens to be getting all that money for, then I'm sure it's fantastic.

The bottom line is with Manny the Red Sox won two World Series, had a Gerhig/Ruth-ian 3-4 combo in the middle of their lineup; they traded Manny away, Ortiz went into the shitter, and the team ends up missing going to another World Series by 2 runs. Management screwed up; I don't need to speculate what Manny did in the clubhouse or what teammates thought of him, because I don't care. As a manager you FIND a damn way to keep him on that team, to keep him happy, keep him hitting, and to keep everybody else from wanting to kill him. Epstein and Francona couldn't find a way to do that, and that's why the Red Sox aren't in the World Series right now.

[chippa13 1844]

Ortiz was already having one of his worst seasons in a Sox uniform before Manny was dealt.

What part of "the only thing that would have made Manny happy was shipping him out of Boston minus the options" don't you understand?

It is widely speculated that Boras was the impetus behind Manny's exaggerated ridiculousness this season, again, because Boras doesn't make a dime until Manny signs a new contract.

[mrusse01 0]

Ortiz was already having one of his worst seasons in a Sox uniform before Manny was dealt.

What part of "the only thing that would have made Manny happy was shipping him out of Boston minus the options" don't you understand?

Yes, and Ortiz played even worse after Manny was dealt. That's what happen when you lose a hitter of that calibre as protection.

I think to say the only possible course of action was to trade him and agree to waive the options is a cop out, it's what Boston management put out their through their media monopoly because that's what they wanted people to hear. The truth is they screwed up the whole situation by not dealing with it last off-season, they gave Boras a chance to get to Manny, which he gladly took.

[chippa13 1844]

And none of Ortiz' troubles had anything to do with the wrist injury, not a thing, right.

[mrusse01 0]

And none of Ortiz' troubles had anything to do with the wrist injury, not a thing, right.

How is that at all relevent? Of course the wrist injury hurt Ortiz at the plate, but he had the bad wrist all year. It doesn't matter, you could put me up there in the 3 hole and I'm going to see better pitches with Manny hitting 4th than with Youk, that's just an accepted baseball fact.

Ortiz w/ wrist injury & Manny hitting behind him > Ortiz w/ wrist injury & someone other than Manny hitting behind him.

Make sense?

[Jason Harris 31]

Your assumption that the Sox blew it last offseason is based on the production of the LA Manny. It ignores the circumstances of last fall.

Last year, Manny had his worse season in eleven years. He was 35 and it was the first time he was under 30 homers and 100 ribbies since 1997. His bat looked slow through the regular season, placing him 32nd in OPS in the majors, yet his salary trailed only A-Rod, Giambi and Jeter. It's a no-brainer that the Sox were not going to rip up the existing options and effectively give him a new contract for MORE money -- which is what he and Boras wanted -- based on declining skills and bad attitude.

There's no doubt Manny was motivated for this contract year, but before the trade he had only improved to 13th in OPS. After the trade, his OPS was best in the majors and he even stole two bases. Of course, an important question is how much of his improvement was due to trying harder versus inferior pitching in the NL?

The bottom line is there was no reason for the Sox to increase the salary of a 35-year-old whose productivity was declining, whose salary was fourth highest, and whose personality led to conflict in the clubhouse.

You can say Boras outfoxed the Sox or you can be objective and admit that Manny tanked it to get traded and paid. You can also blame this on Tito, but most people assert that he's a player's coach. Maybe not the best at X's and O's, but the players love him. If Manny couldn't fall in line, I'm not blaming Tito for that.

[chippa13 1844]

Ramirez before trade:

20-68-.299

Youkilis before trade:

18-70-.313

Yeah, that is a real drop off in production.

[Jason Harris 31]

How is that at all relevent? Of course the wrist injury hurt Ortiz at the plate, but he had the bad wrist all year.

Ortiz was injured on May 31st. After a slow start, he had batted .318 with a .617 slugging in May. That was easily his most productive month.

There's no doubt the injury was a bigger factor than the change of batter behind him, because both Youk and Pedroia batted over .300 with power in the cleanup spot. As a matter of fact, Ozzie Guillen had a humerous rant that he had intentionally walked Pedey during their series because of how hot he was.

[DCott 0]

You are disregarding the fact that there were teammates of Manny who wanted him gone.

I've often tried to guess who was on Manny's side in the clubhouse and who wasn't. All the articles suggest it split down the "professionalism" line. Schilling has been vocal since the trade, so we have to assume he was in the anti-Manny camp. Varitek was the captain and is considered the consummate pro, so I can't believe he'd appreciate Manny's antics. Youk and Manny fought over Youk's intensity, so I suspect he was in the anti-Manny camp. I don't know about Lowell or Pedroia. Lowell speaks Spanish, so that may have allowed him to know Manny in a different light than the other players, while Pedey seems more loose than the other guys, so maybe he'd give Manny a pass. But even Papi last year made a comment to the press that he wasn't going to speak for Manny any more; the implication was he was growing tired of Manny's act.

This July, there was a quote from one of the veterans that Tito would lose the clubhouse unless something was done about Manny. The implication was the other players were tired of Manny being allowed to pull his antics and the situation had reached it boiling point. If Manny wasn't traded or suspended, Tito was going to have a clubhouse divided.

Your response could be they should have suspended him without pay, because then they'd still have him for the playoffs, but it's obvious they were worried he'd bail on them for the last third of the season. Obviously, they decided it was better to get some talent back and hope the improved chemistry would make up for the lost power.

You're forgetting Julio Lugo. Lugo came to Manny's defense several times when Manny did something controversial, and I remember reading somewhere that they were close friends. I wonder if Lugo's absence in the clubhouse this year had anything to do with Manny's progressing distaste for Boston.

[mrusse01 0]

It's a no-brainer that the Sox were not going to rip up the existing options and effectively give him a new contract for MORE money -- which is what he and Boras wanted -- based on declining skills and bad attitude.

Is it a no-brainer? Those 'declining skills' just compiled an OPS of 1.747 in post-season play. Replace Jason Bay with a player who hits anything close to that, and chances are the Red Sox win the World Series this year. What's a World Series (or two, or three) worth to you?

[Jason Harris 31]

Man, you're usually very reasoned, but you aren't listening today.

I did not say that it was a no-brainer they wouldn't increase what was already going to pay him as the fourth highest player, based on THIS YEAR'S postseason.

I said it was a no-brainer they wouldn't increase what was already going to pay him as the fourth highest player, based on LAST YEAR'S declining production plus seven years of antics.

By the way, as much as EVERYBODY in Red Sox Nation would have wanted the LA Manny on the team -- something that ONLY Manny could allow -- do you think we'd be having this conversation if we had the 2007 postseason Lowell or Beckett? I think the Sox would have won in six games if they had those two.

[chippa13 1844]

It's a no-brainer that the Sox were not going to rip up the existing options and effectively give him a new contract for MORE money -- which is what he and Boras wanted -- based on declining skills and bad attitude.

Is it a no-brainer? Those 'declining skills' just compiled an OPS of 1.747 in post-season play. Replace Jason Bay with a player who hits anything close to that, and chances are the Red Sox win the World Series this year. What's a World Series (or two, or three) worth to you?

When Manny's deal was signed, $20 million was market value. I doubt he'll get a deal worth $20 million per in the offseason. The baseball market corrected since he signed that deal.

As for your statement that the Sox could have used the production that Manny put up once he was dealt. NO SHIT. Not one person has said they couldn't, BUT, Manny had no intention of trying in Boston anymore. The moment you understand that the better off we will all be.

[Chadd 916]

Man, you're usually very reasoned, but you aren't listening today.

You must be thinking of someone else

[trevor13478 1]

When Manny's deal was signed, $20 million was market value. I doubt he'll get a deal worth $20 million per in the offseason. The baseball market corrected since he signed that deal.

As for your statement that the Sox could have used the production that Manny put up once he was dealt. NO SHIT. Not one person has said they couldn't, BUT, Manny had no intention of trying in Boston anymore. The moment you understand that the better off we will all be.

Manny had no intention of trying in Boston AFTER they told him they wouldn't discuss his contract until after the season. If management handles it differently and gives Manny what he wants, who's to say he doesn't play his ass off the rest of the year. The way I see it, this definitely could have been avoided had the front office handled it better.

[mrusse01 0]

Man, you're usually very reasoned, but you aren't listening today.

I did not say that it was a no-brainer they wouldn't increase what was already going to pay him as the fourth highest player, based on THIS YEAR'S postseason.

I said it was a no-brainer they wouldn't increase what was already going to pay him as the fourth highest player, based on LAST YEAR'S declining production plus seven years of antics.

By the way, as much as EVERYBODY in Red Sox Nation would have wanted the LA Manny on the team -- something that ONLY Manny could allow -- do you think we'd be having this conversation if we had the 2007 postseason Lowell or Beckett? I think the Sox would have won in six games if they had those two.

That's a good point about Beckett and Lowell, but their injuries were a known quantity (to some extent) when the Ramirez deal was made.

I'm listening, I just think people are giving Manny an overly hard time, and letting Red Sox management off the hook. I don't think I've read or seen a single media item that even slightly criticizes Red Sox mangement for this whole situation, with the exception of Simmons' piece on ESPN.

Management didn't want to pay Manny, at the start of this season, based on his declining stats from last year. I guess that was a was a reasonable assumption on their part (I don't know if I'd call it a no-brainer...he still won 2 titles for you on this contact), but it appears now that they were wrong on that assumption. Judging from his performance in LA, Manny is not in a decline at all. Maybe the last 60 games were an abberation, and the conclusion will swing back around next season as Manny scuttles to a below average (for him) year again....but then again maybe he'll hit .330 and drive in 150 runs somewhere. Call me crazy, but I'm betting on the latter being more likely than the former.

Fact of the matter is this; Red Sox management took a risk when they decided not to sign Manny to an extension last season (or after the previous season). The upside risk was that they could control Manny's contact with the two option years, and avoid having to outlay $100+ million on a potentially fading superstar. The downside risk was that Manny would be insulted (he was), he would sulk (he did), and they'd be 'forced' to trade him with the knowledge that as soon as he got out of Boston he might start hitting like Old Manny again. It's obvious what happened; the Red Sox got the downside risk of this bet, they were wrong.

Red Sox fans seem to be blinded by Manny's actions (which while pretty disgusting, are about exactly what you had to expect from him) and are ignoring that the Red Sox front office screwed up this situation. They COULD have made it work, but for a variety of reasons they just didn't. As a result the team isn't in the World Series this year.

Manny had no intention of trying in Boston AFTER they told him they wouldn't discuss his contract until after the season. If management handles it differently and gives Manny what he wants, who's to say he doesn't play his ass off the rest of the year. The way I see it, this definitely could have been avoided had the front office handled it better.

Thank you, someone here finally understands what I'm getting at.

[TBLfan 25]

WOW, I can't believe I paid 1/4 of what i did on my Lightning season tickets on ONE freaking baseball ticket.

[Jason Harris 31]

They COULD have made it work

How?

And don't say, "Well, they could have signed him to a longer, better paying contract." Even if they had done so to a fading superstar, that's only their side of the relationship, and there was nothing in Manny's seven years to suggest he'd uphold his part 100%.

Regarding Beckett and Lowell, Beckett's injury occurred in September, while Lowell's was being "bother by some discomfort" some time around the end of June, I believe.

WOW, I can't believe I paid 1/4 of what i did on my Lightning season tickets on ONE freaking baseball ticket.

Still, going to the WS should be pretty cool. The Rockies screwed it up big time last year, leaving a lot of angry fans.

Manny had no intention of trying in Boston AFTER they told him they wouldn't discuss his contract until after the season. If management handles it differently and gives Manny what he wants, who's to say he doesn't play his ass off the rest of the year. The way I see it, this definitely could have been avoided had the front office handled it better.

Manny never played his ass off BEFORE the talks of extension occurred, why would he do so after he was extended?

Don't get me wrong, the guy's a Hall of Famer, but his teammates would get pissed when he was effectively a no-show.

[chippa13 1844]

Management didn't want to pay Manny, at the start of this season, based on his declining stats from last year. I guess that was a was a reasonable assumption on their part (I don't know if I'd call it a no-brainer...he still won 2 titles for you on this contact),

I guess this means Sox management should also have extended Timlin. Sure, he was in the tank this season, but hey, he won 2 titles for you.

[trevor13478 1]

Manny had no intention of trying in Boston AFTER they told him they wouldn't discuss his contract until after the season. If management handles it differently and gives Manny what he wants, who's to say he doesn't play his ass off the rest of the year. The way I see it, this definitely could have been avoided had the front office handled it better.

Manny never played his ass off BEFORE the talks of extension occurred, why would he do so after he was extended?

Don't get me wrong, the guy's a Hall of Famer, but his teammates would get pissed when he was effectively a no-show.

your're right, maybe "play his ass off" was a bad choice of words for Manny Ramirez. but who's to say we don't see Manny playing like he has his entire career and putting up some serious numbers? I still believe that if redsox management had just given Manny what Manny wanted, he would've played like Manny the rest of the year. He didn't just wake up one day and decide he didn't want to play for the redsox anymore out of the blue. He was somewhat provoked by the Redsox not treating him how he felt he should be treated as a future Hall of Famer. If Manny gets what he wants, Manny is happy, if Manny is happy, Manny plays, if Manny plays, Manny rakes. I'm sure his teammates didn't like him bailing, but I'm also sure they didn't like losing to the Rays in the ALCS all that much either.

WOW, I can't believe I paid 1/4 of what i did on my Lightning season tickets on ONE freaking baseball ticket.

hey, at least you can buy baseball tickets for your team. try finding a red sox ticket that won't cost you an entire paycheck haha

I guess this means Sox management should also have extended Timlin. Sure, he was in the tank this season, but hey, he won 2 titles for you.

Two totaly different situations, Timlin has proven that he doesn't have the stuff anymore. We know Manny still has it, it is just a question of giving him the motivation to use it.

[mrusse01 0]

They COULD have made it work

How?

And don't say, "Well, they could have signed him to a longer, better paying contract." Even if they had done so to a fading superstar, that's only their side of the relationship, and there was nothing in Manny's seven years to suggest he'd uphold his part 100%.

You mean nothing in Manny's previous seven years to suggest he uphold his part of the contract....other than, you know, being arguably the best hitter in all of baseball over that time period?

[Jason Harris 31]

I said uphold 100%. Nothing in Manny's previous seven years suggested he would uphold his contract 100%.

Sometimes he'd bail on an at bat. Sometimes he wouldn't run hard and still be out on what would have been an error. My memory is he used his dying grandmother twice to get a couple of days off around the All-Star break. Then it was assumed he bailed the last five to six weeks of 2006, per quotes from his teammates.

So it's obvious the Red Sox didn't feel comfortable paying the fourth highest paid player even more money and years, when it appeared his skills were declining and his effort was never 100%. By the way, you've postulated that his skills do not appear to be diminished, based on his results over the last two months. Time will tell if you are correct or whether the pitching is inferior overall in the NL. But let's say you are correct. Wouldn't that lead to the conclusion that he bailed on all of the regular season in 2007, since it was easily his worse season in eleven years, with about 30% less production?

Bottom line, there was nothing in Manny's seven-year history to suggest the Sox would receive 100% production, throughout the season. And there was nothing of his recent history to suggest they would receive production at the level of what would be the second or third highest paid player -- particularly since he would be 37-40 during the contract.

[kovalchuk71 212]

Backstreet Boys national anthem? WTF?

[DCott 0]

Backstreet Boys national anthem? WTF?

lol I was laughing so hard during that that I needed to change the channel because I felt bad laughing at the national anthem.

[-venom- 0]

Go Phillies! Please, end the drought!

If they win, I'm flying home for the goddam parade.

[mack 44]

Even bad pitching beats bad hitting it would seem.