Can't give or take a hit in the NHL nowadays

[KryptOng 9]

lately noticing this trend, mainly stemming from the last two Leafs games

Last night, Finger with a clean hit on Moller. Armstrong jumps in to defend Moller and fights Finger

Tonight, Schenn with a clean hit on Plihal. Murray and co. jumps Schenn.

What happened? I don't recall this happening very much last season, it's like these guys are a bunch of pansies on the ice who can't take a clean hit. Keep your head up! Wasn't the instigator rule put in place for a reason? Or has that been swept under the rug? I'm all for defending your team mate, but after every flattening clean hit?

Discuss

[Chadd 916]

I'd rather have that kind of fight than some knuckledragger come off the bench and fight some other guy who gets more PIMs than minutes on the ice.

[kosydar 0]

I was just about to start a topic about the same thing. Its funny how last night the Leafs guys were saying it was wrong of Armstrong to do so, and tonight the Sharks guys were saying the same thing about Goc. I don't think its good for the game at all. Are Schenn and Finger supposed to back down? Of course they can't. Players shouldn't be practically forced into fighting just because they make a clean play. This fighting after the big hits might prevent guys from stepping up, because Finger and Schenn are much more valuable to their teams on the ice than fighting. Standing up for your teammates is one of the most basic things in hockey and I hope it never goes away, but people are taking it way too far.

[Steveo 0]

I fully agree, both of those hits in particular were great hits. Guys should only be standing up for their teammates when they get caught by a cheapshot. If your teammates are stupid enough to skate around without their head on a swivel then they are going to get creamed, it's that simple.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

It was the same with the Tyler Sloan (caps) hit on the flames guy a couple of weeks back, then he was jumped by a couple of the flames.

It was a clean open ice hit, by Sloan, who is from calgary, and was making his NHL debut in his hometown.

I think the line has become so blurred now with what is clean and not, that any type of aggression is going to be met with retribution, whether warranted or not.

Way to go league for your consistant inconsistency

[Penguinsfanatic 0]

Just out of curiosity shouldn't Armstrong have been hit with an instigator?

Rule 56. Fisticuffs

An instigator of an altercation shall be a player who by his actions or demeanor demonstrates any/some of the following criteria: distance traveled; gloves off first; first punch thrown; menacing attitude or posture; verbal instigation or threats; conduct in retaliation to a prior game (or season) incident; obvious retribution for a previous incident in the game or season.

that's straight out of the rule book...

[chippa13 1844]

Just out of curiosity shouldn't Armstrong have been hit with an instigator?

Rule 56. Fisticuffs

An instigator of an altercation shall be a player who by his actions or demeanor demonstrates any/some of the following criteria: distance traveled; gloves off first; first punch thrown; menacing attitude or posture; verbal instigation or threats; conduct in retaliation to a prior game (or season) incident; obvious retribution for a previous incident in the game or season.

that's straight out of the rule book...

Not in my opinion. Finger made the hit and appeared to be waiting to take on all comers.

I don't mind guys battling after clean hits, it is a way of letting the hitter know that, clean or not, big hits on teammates won't fly and maybe that gets into the back of his mind a little bit.

[selke71 0]

Shouldn't the retaliation for one big, clean hit be another big, clean hit? Why does a big, clean hit require a fight in order to stick up for your teammate? Maybe that's the point: fighting has gone from either something that specific people do on the team for morale reasons to something more like basketball or football, where if someone makes a good clean play you've got to get in their face and start shoving, swinging, etc.

Something happened to sportsmanship along the way, with how many people are getting boarded these days and the need to fight after a big hit. I have a lot more respect for a guy like Derek Boogaard or Darcy Hordichuk, just for an example, than a Sean Avery or Ryan Hollweg.

[chippa13 1844]

The retaliation scrap for a big hit is as old as the game.

[Penguinsfanatic 0]

Just out of curiosity shouldn't Armstrong have been hit with an instigator?

Rule 56. Fisticuffs

An instigator of an altercation shall be a player who by his actions or demeanor demonstrates any/some of the following criteria: distance traveled; gloves off first; first punch thrown; menacing attitude or posture; verbal instigation or threats; conduct in retaliation to a prior game (or season) incident; obvious retribution for a previous incident in the game or season.

that's straight out of the rule book...

Not in my opinion. Finger made the hit and appeared to be waiting to take on all comers.

I don't mind guys battling after clean hits, it is a way of letting the hitter know that, clean or not, big hits on teammates won't fly and maybe that gets into the back of his mind a little bit.

Actually bro Finger stares down Moller and then sees Armstrong coming in at him for the hit...so I don't see how he doesn't get the instigator. Yeah retaliation is as old as the game but on a clean hit where Moller has his head down...come on...maybe next time Moller will have his head up and I agree with you selke71 instead of Armstrong droppin the gloves over a clean hit he should have just waited to line someone on the Leafs up...

[HattrickSwayze 3]

I thought it was good for the Sharks announcer to actually say that last night. I feel the same way, as long as it's a clean hit. I mean, hitting's part of the game. The NFL guys don't start a brawl whenever one of them gets clocked. You know what you're in for when you play the game. Open ice body/hip checks are a great part of the game. You don't see a lot of guys that can consistently pull them off. It's too bad those guys get pummeled whenever they pull one off.

I would feel differently if it were a dirty hit or the guy got hurt. Sure, that's the right time to stick up for him. But when the guy pops right back up to join the play, I don't see why someone needs to start a fight.

[selke71 0]

The retaliation scrap for a big hit is as old as the game.

I'm okay with a scuffle where everybody comes together, pushing and shoving, etc. I just consider dropping the gloves to be something different entirely, where a player gets laid out with a clean hit and gets up and says, "You wanna fight?" That seems, to me, to be bringing street behavior onto the ice.

Body checks are not supposed to be about trying to hurt the other player, it's to take them temporarily out of position or out of the play. It's a part of the sport. Fighting is (pretty uniquely, I might add) part of the sport too, but fighting in hockey isn't about somebody disrespecting you and therefore you have to punch them in the mouth. Leave that to teenagers and other people who can't control themselves. Teams have players who are skilled at fighting, and they fight other players on the other team that are skilled at fighting, pretty much for team morale purposes.

Maybe I'm crazy or just don't understand hockey in its current form. I am also probably influenced a great deal by an incident when I played high school hockey, when three guys from the other team's bench came on to the ice and jumped a couple players from my team (including me) because there was a scuffle with some shoving and chirping going down on the ice. Not only did we get jumped, they jumped us on our way skating back to our own bench.

On what planet do you need to come off the bench and fight the people already on the ice after the whistle? Total lack of sportsmanship, and I'm troubled to see people acting like hypersensitive/overemotional teenagers at the professional level (though considering how young a lot of the players are, maybe I shouldn't be surprised).

Play hard, play clean, and be responsible for your actions on the ice. Being body checked isn't a personal insult or an attack on your honor. Get up and get back in position.

[chippa13 1844]

Body checks are not supposed to be about trying to hurt the other player, it's to take them temporarily out of position or out of the play. It's a part of the sport. Fighting is (pretty uniquely, I might add) part of the sport too, but fighting in hockey isn't about somebody disrespecting you and therefore you have to punch them in the mouth. Leave that to teenagers and other people who can't control themselves. Teams have players who are skilled at fighting, and they fight other players on the other team that are skilled at fighting, pretty much for team morale purposes.

Those scripted fights are the kind of fighting that I don't want in the game. Feeding rights to a guy who laid out one of your teammates is ok in my book. It says, "You laid him out, it won't happen again." Fighting in hockey isn't about disrespect, it is about sending a message or earning your space. I miss the days when a guy like Shanahan or Neely would take only so much guff before serving notice that this is their space on the ice and there is a price to pay if you don't let them have it.

[selke71 0]

Those scripted fights are the kind of fighting that I don't want in the game. Feeding rights to a guy who laid out one of your teammates is ok in my book. It says, "You laid him out, it won't happen again." Fighting in hockey isn't about disrespect, it is about sending a message or earning your space. I miss the days when a guy like Shanahan or Neely would take only so much guff before serving notice that this is their space on the ice and there is a price to pay if you don't let them have it.

But it will happen again, because someone else on the team fighting you is not going to stop you from leveling another opponent who is cutting across the ice with his head down. It's instinct at that point. No player is going to see that opportunity and think, "I'd better not hit him [again], because then I'll get into [another] fight."

The message that needs to be sent and understood is if you don't want to get leveled, don't come in with your head down. Fighting somebody after the fact doesn't seem to send any further message, since I can't imagine anyone in the NHL deciding not to take someone out of the play under those circumstances if they could do it.

Do you think Finger or Schenn will think twice about laying somebody out again? I don't.

[chippa13 1844]

If Armstrong got some real good shots in on Finger then yes, Finger would be a touch more aware of who is on the ice. Have you never heard of players who "play bigger" when they got some muscle out there with them. That has to do with the fact that they know the opponent will think twice before trying to put them through the boards because they may not want some knuckles to wash their teeth down.

[Penguinsfanatic 0]

If Armstrong got some real good shots in on Finger then yes, Finger would be a touch more aware of who is on the ice. Have you never heard of players who "play bigger" when they got some muscle out there with them. That has to do with the fact that they know the opponent will think twice before trying to put them through the boards because they may not want some knuckles to wash their teeth down.

Why should Finger be more aware of who is on the ice? It's not his fault Moller came in the neutral zone with his head down. I'm for standing up for your teammates but that was absurd what Armstrong did on a totally clean hit.

So basically what your saying there should be no checking whatsoever, or for every clean hit that happens on the ice there should be a fight...you make no sense chippa13...yeah i could see if it was dirty then comin in with the gloves off but what the hell is Armstrong trying to prove? That your not allowed to touch his teammates...well maybe his teammates should concentrate on skating with his head up then he would have to worry about getting crunched...and by what you just said Armstrong should have gotten the instigator penalty..just a side note

[tro 4]

This attitude of, if you level our guy, clean or dirty, we are going to attack you, is embarrassing, I don't even watch the fight I am so disgusted by it.

I get the whole, "we can't let the other team take liberties with our teammates", but that should be limited to dirty hits, euros(joking) and Patty Kane(amazing how he doesn't get tossed over the glass)

The NHL is a hitting league, maybe not to the full extent of the NFL, but I can't recall a huge clean hit in the NFL resulting in even a shoving match, hell they don't even mind when the QB gets smashed and the linebacker is doing a celebration dance next to his crippled body.

In short the NHL needs to toughen the hell up.

[chippa13 1844]

If Armstrong got some real good shots in on Finger then yes, Finger would be a touch more aware of who is on the ice. Have you never heard of players who "play bigger" when they got some muscle out there with them. That has to do with the fact that they know the opponent will think twice before trying to put them through the boards because they may not want some knuckles to wash their teeth down.

Why should Finger be more aware of who is on the ice? It's not his fault Moller came in the neutral zone with his head down. I'm for standing up for your teammates but that was absurd what Armstrong did on a totally clean hit.

So basically what your saying there should be no checking whatsoever, or for every clean hit that happens on the ice there should be a fight...you make no sense chippa13...yeah i could see if it was dirty then comin in with the gloves off but what the hell is Armstrong trying to prove? That your not allowed to touch his teammates...well maybe his teammates should concentrate on skating with his head up then he would have to worry about getting crunched...and by what you just said Armstrong should have gotten the instigator penalty..just a side note

Then I suppose Dave Semenko's entire career was just an exercise in absurdity in your eyes. And Armstrong didn't deserve an instigator because, if you decide to watch the full episode again, Finger made the hit and was ready and waiting for someone to offer up the mitts.

This attitude of, if you level our guy, clean or dirty, we are going to attack you, is embarrassing, I don't even watch the fight I am so disgusted by it.

I get the whole, "we can't let the other team take liberties with our teammates", but that should be limited to dirty hits, euros(joking) and Patty Kane(amazing how he doesn't get tossed over the glass)

The NHL is a hitting league, maybe not to the full extent of the NFL, but I can't recall a huge clean hit in the NFL resulting in even a shoving match, hell they don't even mind when the QB gets smashed and the linebacker is doing a celebration dance next to his crippled body.

In short the NHL needs to toughen the hell up.

Wait, fighting makes the NHL less tough??????

[tro 4]

Yeah, I think fighting because a guy took a clean hit is weak, so weak.

Hitting is a huge aspect of the game and what I think really makes the game tough.

For all I care they can take fighting out of the game all together, as long as I can still watch a guy get drilled through the glass.

I'll take the toughness of a player who can hit and take hits (Iggy/Ovie), over the toughness of some guy who's only roll is to fight(Boogie/Parros).

[Penguinsfanatic 0]

Dude I've watched the video a hundred times and I see the same thing over and over and over. He hits Moller....Moller gets up gets in Finger's face, then Armstrong comes skating in..I dont see at all where Finger turns and looks to drop the gloves

[phunky_monkey 6]

And Armstrong didn't deserve an instigator because, if you decide to watch the full episode again, Finger made the hit and was ready and waiting for someone to offer up the mitts.

Even if that was the case, which I don't think it is having just watched the video, that would say to me that he's ready for some retaliation simply because retaliatory fights/hits are common place even when a clean hit is administered.

I've noticed this a lot too. It seems that all clean hits are met with a melay straight afterwards. I'm all for standing up for your team mates, I got a roughing penalty 2 nights ago while standing up for a team mate, but not on a clean hit. I'll give an extra effort to give them a nice hit next time I have the chance as "payback", but not fight them.

[chippa13 1844]

Dude I've watched the video a hundred times and I see the same thing over and over and over. He hits Moller....Moller gets up gets in Finger's face, then Armstrong comes skating in..I dont see at all where Finger turns and looks to drop the gloves

Finger makes the hit, stands over Moller, gives the shove of "Are we going?" and Armstrong joins the fray.

As for the other guy's comments about the cement heads of the league, I agree. I'd prefer to see a guy who can play and take care of his own business. However, fighting still has a place in the game, it helps to keep guys honest. Now, if we could just tinker with that darn instigator rule we'd be all set.

[Chadd 916]

Dude I've watched the video a hundred times and I see the same thing over and over and over. He hits Moller....Moller gets up gets in Finger's face, then Armstrong comes skating in..I dont see at all where Finger turns and looks to drop the gloves

Finger makes the hit, stands over Moller, gives the shove of "Are we going?" and Armstrong joins the fray.

As for the other guy's comments about the cement heads of the league, I agree. I'd prefer to see a guy who can play and take care of his own business. However, fighting still has a place in the game, it helps to keep guys honest. Now, if we could just tinker with that darn instigator rule we'd be all set.

I'd rather see everyone on a team stick up for each other than one otherwise useless goon go out and "take care of business".

[KryptOng 9]

it's quite embarrassing and ego bruising when the instigator instigates the fight and loses or barely even lands a punch

in this case it was Armstrong who gets taken down by Finger

:lol:

[phoenixgold 0]

ya whatever happened to the cruching hit thrown a few minutes later?? the nhl is going gay way too fast