Plane crashes into Hudson River

[coryroth24 15]

We lost a hockey player and future coach in that Buffalo crash. She was supposed to help out with our 12UB girls team this year...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/f..._was_aboar.html

I didn't know her for long, but dude is it freaking nauseating when you know someone involved in something like this...

[LkptTiger 1]

Hearing the word "ice" being thrown-around quite a bit.

[Chadd 916]

Hearing the word "ice" being thrown-around quite a bit.

If properly monitored some ice is not a problem, especially in a dash 8. I've seen reports that the captain only had 3300 hours of time. I would hope that was just with the company and not his total time. I'm fortunate to regularly fly with captains that have in excess of 20,000 hours and I don't believe I've flown with one that has had less then 5,000.

[cptjeff 0]

Hearing the word "ice" being thrown-around quite a bit.

If properly monitored some ice is not a problem, especially in a dash 8. I've seen reports that the captain only had 3300 hours of time. I would hope that was just with the company and not his total time. I'm fortunate to regularly fly with captains that have in excess of 20,000 hours and I don't believe I've flown with one that has had less then 5,000.

Just saw the news conference on CNN, the deicer was turned on in the cockpit but ice was still building up on the wings and prop. The piolot knew it was building up, couldn't do anything about it, and was probably hoping to hell he could make it before it became a problem. Some short somewhere is my bet on cause.

And now a plane goes down in London. No fatalities from that one though, crash landing on a runway. That makes 4 recently.

[LkptTiger 1]

They keep talking about the de-icing mechanisms present on the plane (pneumatic "boots" is how they're being described - perhaps Chadd could elaborate? - and heated panels). Apparently there was significant build-up on the windshield and wings despite those mechanisms having been engaged before the plane lost control. Apparently the plane was also headed AWAY from the airport as it was going down...

I've heard accounts from people I know who were in the area at the time (one of my buddies actually saw the plane from a distance as it went down). Unbelievably sad - can't imagine what was going on inside the plane as it approached the ground. As horrific as it sounds, I have to hope it was quick and painless for those on board (and the man in the home that was hit).

Luckily, I haven't received any personal news yet; but until I see a flight manifest, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[Chadd 916]

They keep talking about the de-icing mechanisms present on the plane (pneumatic "boots" is how they're being described - perhaps Chadd could elaborate? - and heated panels). Apparently there was significant build-up on the windshield and wings despite those mechanisms having been engaged before the plane lost control. Apparently the plane was also headed AWAY from the airport as it was going down...

Bleed air (engine exhaust) is routed to rubber coverings on the leading edges of the wings and tail. I believe the props are electrically heated, not as familiar with that system. If the numbers I quoted earlier are correct, inexperience will be listed as a significant contributing factor to this accident.

With all of the turpoprop and small plane bashing I'm seeing on the news, I hope this doesn't cause the company to shut down our division. We fly nothing but Dash 8 100s and 300s, but not 400s.

Just saw the news conference on CNN, the deicer was turned on in the cockpit but ice was still building up on the wings and prop. The piolot knew it was building up, couldn't do anything about it, and was probably hoping to hell he could make it before it became a problem. Some short somewhere is my bet on cause.

And now a plane goes down in London. No fatalities from that one though, crash landing on a runway. That makes 4 recently.

Flight controls are hydraulic, not electric. There is ZERO chance your bet is correct.

[cptjeff 0]

They keep talking about the de-icing mechanisms present on the plane (pneumatic "boots" is how they're being described - perhaps Chadd could elaborate? - and heated panels). Apparently there was significant build-up on the windshield and wings despite those mechanisms having been engaged before the plane lost control. Apparently the plane was also headed AWAY from the airport as it was going down...

Bleed air (engine exhaust) is routed to rubber coverings on the leading edges of the wings and tail. I believe the props are electrically heated, not as familiar with that system. If the numbers I quoted earlier are correct, inexperience will be listed as a significant contributing factor to this accident.

With all of the turpoprop and small plane bashing I'm seeing on the news, I hope this doesn't cause the company to shut down our division. We fly nothing but Dash 8 100s and 300s, but not 400s.

Just saw the news conference on CNN, the deicer was turned on in the cockpit but ice was still building up on the wings and prop. The piolot knew it was building up, couldn't do anything about it, and was probably hoping to hell he could make it before it became a problem. Some short somewhere is my bet on cause.

And now a plane goes down in London. No fatalities from that one though, crash landing on a runway. That makes 4 recently.

Flight controls are hydraulic, not electric. There is ZERO chance your bet is correct.

The deicing system switch is hydraulic? I wasn't talking about flight controls, I was talking about the deicing system. The report was that the system was on but ice was still building up. If the props are electrically heated, it's pretty much certain an electrical connection is involved somewhere.

[LkptTiger 1]

If the numbers I quoted earlier are correct, inexperience will be listed as a significant contributing factor to this accident.

Inexperience and irresponsibility.

I've been hearing absolutely horrific things about what they're looking at on-site. I can only hope that the information that I'm hearing isn't accurate (which, unfortunately, I doubt). I wish the families the best.

[Chadd 916]

They keep talking about the de-icing mechanisms present on the plane (pneumatic "boots" is how they're being described - perhaps Chadd could elaborate? - and heated panels). Apparently there was significant build-up on the windshield and wings despite those mechanisms having been engaged before the plane lost control. Apparently the plane was also headed AWAY from the airport as it was going down...

Bleed air (engine exhaust) is routed to rubber coverings on the leading edges of the wings and tail. I believe the props are electrically heated, not as familiar with that system. If the numbers I quoted earlier are correct, inexperience will be listed as a significant contributing factor to this accident.

With all of the turpoprop and small plane bashing I'm seeing on the news, I hope this doesn't cause the company to shut down our division. We fly nothing but Dash 8 100s and 300s, but not 400s.

Just saw the news conference on CNN, the deicer was turned on in the cockpit but ice was still building up on the wings and prop. The piolot knew it was building up, couldn't do anything about it, and was probably hoping to hell he could make it before it became a problem. Some short somewhere is my bet on cause.

And now a plane goes down in London. No fatalities from that one though, crash landing on a runway. That makes 4 recently.

Flight controls are hydraulic, not electric. There is ZERO chance your bet is correct.

The deicing system switch is hydraulic? I wasn't talking about flight controls, I was talking about the deicing system. The report was that the system was on but ice was still building up. If the props are electrically heated, it's pretty much certain an electrical connection is involved somewhere.

If the switch didn't work, the crew would have known. It's not possible for the system to be inoperative without an indicator on the flight deck. Ice can still build up despite the deice system being turned on if you're in bad enough conditions. For your hypothesis to be correct, not only would the system have to fail but the safety system would also have to fail. I work for the largest operator of Dash 8s in the US and we have never had a failure like you describe. But I'm sure your speculation is more accurate than what our chief pilot, director of maintenance and captains with over 20,000 in the type have said.

If the numbers I quoted earlier are correct, inexperience will be listed as a significant contributing factor to this accident.

Inexperience and irresponsibility.

I've been hearing absolutely horrific things about what they're looking at on-site. I can only hope that the information that I'm hearing isn't accurate (which, unfortunately, I doubt). I wish the families the best.

Most pilots use autopilot down to a couple hundred feet or lower. Some larger aircraft can even land at certain airports on autopilot. Their last recorded altitude was 2300' and in IFR conditions. I would expect virtually every pilot to be using the flight director (autopilot) in that position.

[Hockeyman11385 1]

Having been lucky enough to try out a commercial grade flight simulator for an airline, the autopilot can definitely land the plane. The instructor I was with let us try it out and it's pretty cool. From what she said most pilots let the autopilot line them up for landing and then take over the actual act of landing the plane.

I really feel for the families. I couldn't imagine a more horrific phone call.

[LkptTiger 1]

Obviously, you guys have a better idea as to what this all means than I do...but I have to wonder why nearly everything I've read about this particular incident has stated that putting the plane into auto-pilot in those conditions is either "strongly discouraged" or even "against airline policy."

[Chadd 916]

Having been lucky enough to try out a commercial grade flight simulator for an airline, the autopilot can definitely land the plane. The instructor I was with let us try it out and it's pretty cool. From what she said most pilots let the autopilot line them up for landing and then take over the actual act of landing the plane.

I really feel for the families. I couldn't imagine a more horrific phone call.

A few years back there was an incident where the airplane landed with the nosewheel turned sideways, I believe it was Jet Blue at LAX. Evidently it was landed that way.

Obviously, you guys have a better idea as to what this all means than I do...but I have to wonder why nearly everything I've read about this particular incident has stated that putting the plane into auto-pilot in those conditions is either "strongly discouraged" or even "against airline policy."

I heard a lot of unreasonable speculation on TV when I was up there on Friday night. There was also a lot of flat-out BS on the part of a lot of people but I'll be polite and credit it to trying to fill air time without any real facts. A good deal of witness information has been disputed by the FDR.

The real issue is why they didn't get out of the icing conditions more quickly, especially once they realized that it was accumulating in significant amounts. They never requested a change in altitude or course or reported any problems over the radio. I haven't heard anything about the crew's schedule on that day or the few leading up to the incident. Fatigue may have been a factor in their decision making process. A large portion of the blame is going to fall squarely on those on the flight deck and their decisions.

Commercial aircraft are on autopilot 99% of the time they are in the air.

[DoublinUp 0]

I had a friend pass away in a plane crash last week! All these crashes makes me not want to fly!

[Chadd 916]

Found this description on another website and I think this is the right train of thought.

Generally speaking, an aircraft's center of gravity is forward of the center of lift. This causes a nose down tendency. To counter this, aircraft have a horizontal stabilizer, with a small amount of negative angle of attack (technically known as angle of incidence) producing negative, or downward lift. As airflow comes off the main wing with flaps up, it strikes the horizontal stabilizer at a given angle. As flaps are lowered, the result is increased downwash on the horizontal stabilizer. This means the negative angle of attack on the horizontal stabilizer has increased, and is now closer to its critical angle of attack, or AOA at which it stalls.

In simple terms, lowering flaps brings the elevator closer to stall angle of attack. Add ice to the equation and the possibility is increased even more. Someone earlier mentioned the aspect of this being a high wing aircraft. The theory is a high wing is in a position to put more downwash (increasing the negative AOA) on the horizontal stabilizer than a low wing. The Dash 8 however also has a T-tail, so I'm not sure how much this is a factor.

However, consider this - I used to fly CRJ aircraft (low wing, and T-tail). Given the above explanation, one would assume the CRJ (or 727, DC-9, etc) has the best configuration to avoid an elevator stall. Even so, my CRJ manual states "Consider landing at reduced flap settings in moderate or greater icing conditions".

I do not believe it is a coincidence this flight ran into problems when they lowered the flaps.

I had a friend pass away in a plane crash last week! All these crashes makes me not want to fly!

My condolences

[Chadd 916]

If the numbers I quoted earlier are correct, inexperience will be listed as a significant contributing factor to this accident.

Inexperience and irresponsibility.

I've been hearing absolutely horrific things about what they're looking at on-site. I can only hope that the information that I'm hearing isn't accurate (which, unfortunately, I doubt). I wish the families the best.

According to more recent reports, the autopilot kicked off when the flaps were extended and the plane went out of control. It's looking more and more like the explanation I found might be correct. The Colgan flight Manual also only requires that the aircraft be hand flown in severe icing situations, as the manufacturer suggests. The FAA approved the manual and their guidelines are the same.

Start watching around the six minute mark, it explains the concepts at play. Around 19 minutes or so is essentially what some people believe happened.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946

Also heard today that the captain only had 300 hours in the type.

[RadioGaGa 162]

Another hockey connection to the Buffalo crash.

http://www.thespec.com/article/513682

[fieldofdreams 0]

Another hockey connection to the Buffalo crash.

http://www.thespec.com/article/513682

Wow... that is some divine intervention there...

[Chadd 916]

Occam's Razor strikes again.

Investigators examining last week's Continental Connection plane crash have gathered evidence that pilot commands -- not a buildup of ice on the wings and tail -- likely initiated the fatal dive of the twin-engine Bombardier Q400 into a neighborhood six miles short of the Buffalo, N.Y., airport, according to people familiar with the situation.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123492905826906821.html

The captain had 110 hours in type, that's around six weeks worth of experience at my company. Overall he had 3300 hours or about three and a half years.

[Hockeyman11385 1]

That's shocking that the captain had so few hours in the plane. I would expect the first officer to have that few but not the captain. Is there a shortage of pilots in the industry at the moment?

[Chadd 916]

That's shocking that the captain had so few hours in the plane. I would expect the first officer to have that few but not the captain. Is there a shortage of pilots in the industry at the moment?

The Q400 is a fairly new aircraft to Colgan, they've only had them a year or so. The captain transitioned from the Saab 340 to the Q400 in December. I know our airline requires new upgrades or people that transition into a new aircraft to fly with what is essentially a captain instructor for most of the first month after they complete training, I would expect that Colgan does something similar. The first officer had more than 700 hours in type and that's not bad at all for Colgan.

There was a shortage of pilots about 18-24 months ago up until last spring/summer. The elimination of mandatory retirement at age 60 helped slow things down, then the high fuel prices forced airlines to start furloughing pilots. There is something of a glut again. We haven't hired in a year or so and that's almost unheard of for a regional airline.

[Chadd 916]

So this morning we lose an engine on takeoff, great way to start a day.

[RadioGaGa 162]

So this morning we lose an engine on takeoff, great way to start a day.

I see (by virute of you posting here) that everything turned out okay.

[Chadd 916]

So this morning we lose an engine on takeoff, great way to start a day.

I see (by virute of you posting here) that everything turned out okay.

Fortunately, yes. Nothing like losing an engine at 200' to wake you up.

[Hidious 0]

My dad was very nervous for his first plane trip last week, especially after those recent crashes. I showed him this video of daily air traffic and the probability of actually crashing. Worked like a charm.

[Blueandgold26 1]

Rumor has it there's a petetion for the family who's house was hit to be on extreme makeover home edition.