Gretzky or Orr?

[DoubleT96 0]

I'll take Orr. I think he would more effective in today's game. That is, considering the faster game speed, the increasing size of the players, and the overall skill improvements in the goalies, I think Orr would be a better player to build a team around.

[Chadd 916]

There was a fantastic article on Orr in SI a couple weeks ago. If you can track it down, it's a great read.

[DarkStar50 679]

The question is pretty much asking do you want the best one sided player in the game? (Gretz)

Or the best two sided player in the game? (Orr)

Bobby no contest.

For the record, Gretzky had 73 career regular season shorthanded goals. 81-82=12, 82-83=9, 83-84=11, 84-85=7, 85-86=6, and oh yeah, his rookie year in the NHL 79-80=6 shorties. I love Bobby Orr but Gretzky did play both ends of the rink.

[Neal 41]

I like a star who can scrap, so I'll take Bobby.

[mrusse01 0]

I think you have to go with Orr if you are building a team, just beacuse a top dman like that can play almost half the game whereas a #1 centre can't really do that.

I don't think we are likely to see another player dominate or change the game like Gretz and Orr did....but if we do, I'd be willing to bet it ends up being a goaltender. I'm waiting for the day when some 6'6 phenom comes out of juniors and is nearly impossible to beat. I think there is also a potential for a physical 'freak' by hockey standards to change the sport...imagine someone like LeBron (6'8, 270+lbs) playing RW? There has never been a big man in hockey with the foot speed of a smaller player, but those athletes do exist out there, they just aren't playing hockey. The current sports landscape makes it such that once in a generation athletes like LeBron are pushed into football or basketball or baseball, but I could see the day where one of them turns out to be a hockey player.

Link to Orr article in SI.

[chippa13 1844]

The question is pretty much asking do you want the best one sided player in the game? (Gretz)

Or the best two sided player in the game? (Orr)

Bobby no contest.

For the record, Gretzky had 73 career regular season shorthanded goals. 81-82=12, 82-83=9, 83-84=11, 84-85=7, 85-86=6, and oh yeah, his rookie year in the NHL 79-80=6 shorties. I love Bobby Orr but Gretzky did play both ends of the rink.

I don't know if shorties is the best indication of playing both ends of the rink.

I think you have to go with Orr if you are building a team, just beacuse a top dman like that can play almost half the game whereas a #1 centre can't really do that.

I don't think we are likely to see another player dominate or change the game like Gretz and Orr did....but if we do, I'd be willing to bet it ends up being a goaltender. I'm waiting for the day when some 6'6 phenom comes out of juniors and is nearly impossible to beat. I think there is also a potential for a physical 'freak' by hockey standards to change the sport...imagine someone like LeBron (6'8, 270+lbs) playing RW? There has never been a big man in hockey with the foot speed of a smaller player, but those athletes do exist out there, they just aren't playing hockey. The current sports landscape makes it such that once in a generation athletes like LeBron are pushed into football or basketball or baseball, but I could see the day where one of them turns out to be a hockey player.

Link to Orr article in SI.

There have been a few goalies who have dominated and changed the game, from the first mask through to Brodeur's great puck handling there have been goalies who were quite influential in the game and how it is played. The introduction of the butterfly style is another example and there are plenty others out there.

[DarkStar50 679]

The fact that Gretzky killed penalties speaks to his being more than a one sided(offence only) player. The fact that he scored shorties speaks to providing offence while playing defence. We both know Gretzky played defence as well as offence. I just felt calling Gretzky one sided was unfair and not true.

[psh 25]

I think the record book and Gretzky's longevity speak for themselves. I'd go with him. It's interesting to imagine what could have been if Orr's knees held out, but they didn't.

From a marketing perspective, I'd add that Gretzky transitioned the game's marketbase from Canada and border states to all of North America. When you're building a team, or a league, you've got to consider cultivating and maintaining your market. #99 certainly proved himself in that regard.

[chippa13 1844]

The explosion of hockey in the Northeast was directly attributable to Bobby Orr. Before Orr there was not an MDC rink anywhere around the city of Boston.

[Law Goalie 147]

There have been a few goalies who have dominated and changed the game, from the first mask through to Brodeur's great puck handling there have been goalies who were quite influential in the game and how it is played. The introduction of the butterfly style is another example and there are plenty others out there.

I'd love to have made that point, but something made me hesitate.

The only two goalies I'd even consider for this are Tretiak, for turning a position largely reserved for slightly dumpy, thick-skulled men into an athletic science, and Brodeur for his unbelievable mental game. I mean, Ron Hextall was a far, far more talented puck-handler than Brodeur, but for him it was a skill, something to rattle the glass or toss in the odd empty-netter. Brodeur was the first guy to take Plante's foundation as the 'third defenseman' and truly begin to quarterback breakouts. Nobody before him had the sheer mental fortitude to involve himself in the game like that and still be a top-flight goalie. In terms of career achievements, they both stack up pretty nicely too.

The strange thing is that most of the advancements in goaltending were fairly quiet. Benedict was the true first to wear a mask AND singlehandedly forced the league to remove the rule that prevented goalies from dropping to their knees: he not only invented the butterfly, he invented and forcibly created the entire low-net game. He gets credit for neither. Was he a great goalie in his time? Sure. Should he get more credit? Maybe.

But the fact is that his impact on the game can only be measured in retrospect, whereas with Gretzky and Orr, the impact was immediate and lasting. Even with Brodeur and Tretiak, despite their enormous reputations among their contemporaries, it's hard to say that they changed the game around them that dramatically.

I really don't think we'll see the true impact of puck-handling goalies for another few years. It's only been the last few years that kids have been growing up with the "Turco Grip" which allows goalies to get a real backhand off and stick-handle with any dexterity. I also know a guy who's designing ambidextrous goalie gloves that allow a player-style grip with both hands. That'd be even bigger.

[Chadd 916]

I would say that Roy's popularizing of the butterfly style puts him high on the list of influential goaltenders as well. Higher than anyone other than perhaps Plante, and that was more equipment related than actual playing style.

[DarkStar50 679]

Plante was the first goalie to handle the puck outside his crease. He was the first goalie to go behind the net to stop the puck on dump ins. He was the original "wandering goalie." There was more Plante was innovative for in the crease than the mask. While Roy took the butterfly position to another level through his goaltending coach Allaire, it was Glenn Hall, another 50s/60s goalie that was the original "butterfly goalie." Hall was the first goalie to spread his legs to cover down low. Hall presented the standard stance with his legs together but went down in the butterfly V. Following Hall with this technique was the emergence of Tony Esposito. #35 was the first goalie to set up with his legs apart in his stance, showing 5 hole, but quickly taking it away. Tony "O" set the record, at that time, for shut-outs in a season when he was a rookie.

[Law Goalie 147]

Good points all around. Brodeur expanded on Plante as Hall expanded on Benedict. The funny thing is that despite his popularity for the style, Roy never really played what we now call 'the butterfly style' -- he didn't use down-movement much as all, for one thing. That was something Allaire (or depending who you ask, Warren Strelow) started teaching to younger goalies, and is no an indispensable skill. Still, none of it happens without Benedict breaking that rule apart.

Tony'O was also, in addition to being a fantastic goalie, the first one creative enough to really try to cheat with his gear. The fishing-net between the thighs was classic. J.S. Giguere would never have seen the light of day without Tony.

While we're at it, we should also throw in Cat Francis for being the first guy to wear a trapper (well, a first-baseman's mitt with some extra felt in the palm).

But again, I feel like we're making the broader point even more clearly: there really isn't a goalie in the Gretzky/Orr category. In one way, it's just statistical, since there are by definition about 1/12th as many NHL goalies as players; developmental, too, since coaching goalies was less like science and more like alchemy ("Challenge the shooter!" "Anticipate!" "Stay on your feet!" and other mystical incantations that don't actually work) until the last few years when the innovations of Tretiak, Strelow and Mitch Korn have really started to take hold at all levels, and nobody's even begun to incorporate the stuff Hasek came up with. We may yet see the 'Gretzky of Goalies' in the next couple of generations.

[mrusse01 0]

We may yet see the 'Gretzky of Goalies' in the next couple of generations.

That's what I'm getting at. I don't think there's ever been a point in the league where the best player has without a doubt been a goaltender. You could maybe make the case for Hasek for a couple years there, but he certainly never got to the level of an Orr or a Gretzky where if you asked 100 hockey people who the best player in the world was you would probably get 100 of the same replies.

Maybe that is just a function of the position itself, or maybe it's just because we haven't seen that type of player in the nets, time will tell I suppose.

[Chadd 916]

...until the last few years when the innovations of Tretiak, Strelow and Mitch Korn have really started to take hold at all levels, and nobody's even begun to incorporate the stuff Hasek came up with. We may yet see the 'Gretzky of Goalies' in the next couple of generations.

Hasek's biggest strengths were his unpredictability and the fact that he never gave up on a play. Most coaches want to teach a standard, whereas teaching a Hasek style would be more about feel and work ethic.

[Law Goalie 147]

Agreed.

Hasek was a phenomenon, sure, but he's nowhere near Brodeur or Tretiak in terms of career or impact. The really weird thing about Hasek was that as crazy and 'random' as his style looked, he practised it rigourously and it's tremendously demanding. I've been trying to teach his basic cross-crease over-the-shoulder rolling move, and the first-hour acquisition rate is about 1-in-10, which is astonishingly low. It's nothing any kid on the playground shouldn't be able to do, but the second you involve a puck, 90% of the kids' brains are unable to process it. I still can't do it in live-fire situations myself. How do you stop a shot with your back turned?-- with pure intuition and physical precision.

I think to be the Gretzky/Orr among goalies you'd need to be around 20+ shutouts per season over a 10+ year career, with some truly epic playoff runs in there, and to absolutely dominate the puck-control game.

[Chadd 916]

Agreed.

Hasek was a phenomenon, sure, but he's nowhere near Brodeur or Tretiak in terms of career or impact. The really weird thing about Hasek was that as crazy and 'random' as his style looked, he practised it rigourously and it's tremendously demanding. I've been trying to teach his basic cross-crease over-the-shoulder rolling move, and the first-hour acquisition rate is about 1-in-10, which is astonishingly low. It's nothing any kid on the playground shouldn't be able to do, but the second you involve a puck, 90% of the kids' brains are unable to process it. I still can't do it in live-fire situations myself. How do you stop a shot with your back turned?-- with pure intuition and physical precision.

I think to be the Gretzky/Orr among goalies you'd need to be around 20+ shutouts per season over a 10+ year career, with some truly epic playoff runs in there, and to absolutely dominate the puck-control game.

You can't teach awareness in skaters or tenders and awareness is what you need to play the "hasek style"

[DarkStar50 679]

Therefore, like Gretzky's ability "to see the ice", this awareness will be an innate characteristic of the player.

[Law Goalie 147]

I still believe awareness can be taught, but it's really bloody hard and you've got to start early. The problem is that without a really strong foundation of physical self-awareness (ie. what is my body doing in space), the mental awareness of how the game is moving around you even when you aren't looking at it (at its peak, Gretzky-vision) won't help a goalie. That's why I love using mirrors on the ice; goalies need to know what they look like to other players, and giving them a little taste of that helps build the imagination to do more.

I heard a great anecdote from Alex Ferguson about Ole Solskjaer, and why he was so good at coming late into games and scoring huge goals. He'd sit on the bench without saying a word and study the game more closely and in greater depth than any manager or coach Ferguson had ever seen. He didn't then have the verbal skills to articulate what he was seeing, but he knew what to do with the information - as soon as he subbed in, he'd pick the opposition apart.

I've heard similar things about Orr and Gretzky, but they did it while they were actually in the heat of the game and used it on the fly.

I guess that's why I said I'd prefer Gretzky: I think his mental game was just a bit more sophisticated than Orr's, though Orr was by far the superior athlete. In hockey, for whatever reason, the superior athlete is not necessarily the surest winner.

[DarkStar50 679]

And the smaller, mentally smarter player with the same skill set as the bigger player can outplay the bigger player with the same skill set!

Great point, though of Orr as the better athlete. Gretzky's thought process was just so amazing. I read a quote from Tuomo Ruutu when asked the difference between Finnish Elite League and the NHL, "In Finland I receive a pass and look for the next player to pass the puck to. In the NHL, before I receive the pass, I have to know who I will be passing it to." That is how fast you have to think to play in the NHL.

[fultonreed 1]

orr

[trevor13478 1]

Orr without a doubt, guy had the most raw talent and skill of any player ever. hands down. Gretzky had the instinct and the vision, but Bobby Orr could do it all. by himself...

[Chadd 916]

Orr without a doubt, guy had the most raw talent and skill of any player ever. hands down.

I disagree

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Orr without a doubt, guy had the most raw talent and skill of any player ever. hands down.

I disagree

Gotta go with Lemieux on that one...

Ironically enough Orr was in town yesterday, playing at Bay Hill.

[Larry54 243]

Orr without a doubt, guy had the most raw talent and skill of any player ever. hands down. Gretzky had the instinct and the vision, but Bobby Orr could do it all. by himself...

I totally agree and I'm in pretty good company on that one: