The Jason Stinson Trial

[RecLeagueHero 0]

Couldn't find any other threads on the subject, but I thought it was something worth talking about. If you don't know the details of the case:http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/highschool/01/24/death.charges.ap/index.html The short version is that during end of practice wind sprints a player collapsed and later died of heat stroke. The former head coach is now on trial for reckless homicide. Personally, I think it's absurd to criminally prosecute someone for a tragic accident, but a common issue in gridiron football. The running of wind sprints, gassers, or whatever you want to call them is a part of virtually every high school football program. Heat stroke and exhaustion related deaths occurs, at varying levels of football. Just seems to be it is another example of a distrubing trend of prosecution by result. We wouldn't be here if the kid drank some water and was fine in the morning. There's no evdience the coach in any way forced him to continue running.

[bheidepr 0]

I disagree. I think that the coach is in charge and responsible for every one of his players while they are under his care. The caoches did in fact make them run and to continue to run until someone quit. He collapsed before someone quit.

I coach pretty much year round. Those kids are in my care, I am supposed to let them out of my care better than when they came into it....

[Drewhunz 3]

I remember back when I was playing football, when we were mandated by state law to have water breaks. 3 hour practices in 100+ degree heat with coaches not letting you leave the field until your vomit was clear (Yes, this actually happened to me) was downright cruel and criminal.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that anyone was refused a water break. They ran 12 sprints by the accounts, that's hardly an excessive amount of running. If we were talking about ten year olds I'd agree, but the bottom line is you've got a teenaged kid here. At what point are they old enough to use their words and tell the coach they're not feeling well beyond normal exhaustion? It's tragic for sure, but coaches aren't mind readers. Practice in the heat is tough, but in regions where you're practicing in the heat, you're going to be playing in the heat. The kids have to be ready for it. I'm all for regulation bodies stepping in and coming up with safety rules. There's no benefit in over training, or dehydration by any means. Even when I was that age if the heat index was at certain point we had to cut practices short and conduct conditioning drills without pads. None of the other coaches involved in the 39 heat related football deaths of high school players (http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/21/heat.football.practice/index.html) were charged.

Also, I believe in needs to noted at a high school with over 1,900 kids you're looking at a 9th, 10th, JV, and Varsity football team. That's probably somewhere between 120-150 kids out for football, it's a bit unrealistic to think a coach can mointer them all like a hawk.

[Race4LastPlace 31]

THis has really affected me. He was my high school gym teacher as I played football for that school. He became head coach after I had graduated. I know all the assistant coaches as most are the same from when I played and Stinson was one of the best teachers/person I have ever known.

I will say I was not at the practice. I do not know exActly what happened that day so take this as my opinion:

this is a witchhunt. The Jefferson County School Board and athletic association found no wrong doing. The heat index was enough to keep them in uppers (not full gear) but it was not hot enough to cancel or limit practices. They were admittedly given water and then ran gassers for half an hour or so. The kid told parents he didn't feel well the night before, and I believe him taking adderall contributed to his unfortunate death. I have seen and read about this story since day 1.

I really feel bad for the kids family. Don't take this as me bashing them because I'm not, but the initial reports were of accidental death so no autopsy was performed. The first few days after the parents (who are divorced) had different stories. The father was at the practice. Initially he said it seemed like most any normal day of practice. The kids were given slotted water breaks... And so on.

I just don't feel that this is fair trial. This is an unprecedented case so it's outcome will affect high school sports all over the country. I can say firsthand that Coach stinson is a stand up man who never meant for this to happen. I have not spoken to him since this all began, but I know how he is feeling.

One child lost his life, and his coach has lost his livelihood. I just don't agree with him facing charges in this.

Again, my deepest sympathies to the family of this tragic accident, but i hope the court rules in favor of it being just that. A tragic accident.

[Chadd 916]

The caoches did in fact make them run and to continue to run until someone quit. He collapsed before someone quit.

If this is true, the coach may have a problem in court.

[Race4LastPlace 31]

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=11137659

Article yesterday. Some testimony from players at that practice. When i played (and i still know the athletic director) the athletics department told us "if you're sick, dont practice" and that was the way it was. I think his combination of being sick, taking adderall, and creatine led to increased chances of heatstroke.

I may be jumping the gun, but are we far off from coaches having to carry some sort of malpractice type insurance?

[Chadd 916]

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=11137659

Article yesterday. Some testimony from players at that practice. When i played (and i still know the athletic director) the athletics department told us "if you're sick, dont practice" and that was the way it was. I think his combination of being sick, taking adderall, and creatine led to increased chances of heatstroke.

I may be jumping the gun, but are we far off from coaches having to carry some sort of malpractice type insurance?

There is a lot of stuff here that shows how screwed up our society is.

1. Kid feels like he can't miss practice

2. Kid feels he needs to take supplement to play HS sports

3. Peer pressure to run and not be the first one to quit

[RecLeagueHero 0]

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=11137659

Article yesterday. Some testimony from players at that practice. When i played (and i still know the athletic director) the athletics department told us "if you're sick, dont practice" and that was the way it was. I think his combination of being sick, taking adderall, and creatine led to increased chances of heatstroke.

I may be jumping the gun, but are we far off from coaches having to carry some sort of malpractice type insurance?

I'm not sure about insurance, I mean there's no insurance you can buy that'll keep you out of jail. Least ways not that I've seen. I do think this could have rather board implications for youth sports in general. It's going to play a role when you've got someone thinking about volunteering to coach, it's going to play a role in the insurance costs to leagues, and that ulimately could mean reduced opportunities for kids in sports.

[Chadd 916]

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=11137659

Article yesterday. Some testimony from players at that practice. When i played (and i still know the athletic director) the athletics department told us "if you're sick, dont practice" and that was the way it was. I think his combination of being sick, taking adderall, and creatine led to increased chances of heatstroke.

I may be jumping the gun, but are we far off from coaches having to carry some sort of malpractice type insurance?

I'm not sure about insurance, I mean there's no insurance you can buy that'll keep you out of jail. Least ways not that I've seen. I do think this could have rather board implications for youth sports in general. It's going to play a role when you've got someone thinking about volunteering to coach, it's going to play a role in the insurance costs to leagues, and that ulimately could mean reduced opportunities for kids in sports.

This is a criminal trial, insurance doesn't apply in any way. If you have a civil trial, the coach should be covered by the school district insurance policy.

[Race4LastPlace 31]

Yeah I was kinda getting to that point (maybe a lil sarcastically) This may sway some parents from allowing their kids to play. But I have seen here that parents and volunteers are more reluctant to step up and coach. For the first time in years our little league baseball association (which won the llws a few years back) had to put out flyers asking for assistant coaches because they were running short.

I'm pretty sure the parents had filed a civil suit initially before filing criminal charges against the coach.

Whether guilty or not, I don't think he'll coach again

[Chadd 916]

I'm pretty sure the parents had filed a civil suit initially before filing criminal charges against the coach.

Parents can't file criminal charges. In most cases they will wait for the criminal trial to be completed so they can use any testimony in the civil trial without having to depose everyone on their own dime.

[Race4LastPlace 31]

you're right.

read it back. They had initially filed a wrongful death lawsuit against 6 of the coaches, before being indicted on reckless homicide and wanton endangerment charges.

[Chadd 916]

you're right.

read it back. They had initially filed a wrongful death lawsuit against 6 of the coaches, before being indicted on reckless homicide and wanton endangerment charges.

I only read the last link posted, not everything. Also bear in mind that the civil case will generally only determine if the coaches had any liability, not if they were completely at fault. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the coaches had some liability in this situation. That said, there will most likely be a settlement unless the family is out for a huge payday.

[Race4LastPlace 31]

Can't post a link yet, but jury just found him NOT GUILTY.

[Chadd 916]

Can't post a link yet, but jury just found him NOT GUILTY.

Good for him, hate to see this turn into more of a tragedy. At this point the only possible penalty is financial and the school insurance should cover that.

[chippa13 1844]

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that anyone was refused a water break. They ran 12 sprints by the accounts, that's hardly an excessive amount of running. If we were talking about ten year olds I'd agree, but the bottom line is you've got a teenaged kid here. At what point are they old enough to use their words and tell the coach they're not feeling well beyond normal exhaustion? It's tragic for sure, but coaches aren't mind readers. Practice in the heat is tough, but in regions where you're practicing in the heat, you're going to be playing in the heat. The kids have to be ready for it. I'm all for regulation bodies stepping in and coming up with safety rules. There's no benefit in over training, or dehydration by any means. Even when I was that age if the heat index was at certain point we had to cut practices short and conduct conditioning drills without pads. None of the other coaches involved in the 39 heat related football deaths of high school players (http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/21/heat.football.practice/index.html) were charged.

Also, I believe in needs to noted at a high school with over 1,900 kids you're looking at a 9th, 10th, JV, and Varsity football team. That's probably somewhere between 120-150 kids out for football, it's a bit unrealistic to think a coach can mointer them all like a hawk.

Folks who are reaching that point don't realize it and how is the kid to know the difference, he is still a kid and most likely not up on the symptoms of heat exhaustion. As for playing in the heat, that is a heck of a lot easier than sprints in the heat, rather rare for a kid to sprint the field 12 times in a row in a football game without a break of some sort.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

Folks who are reaching that point don't realize it and how is the kid to know the difference, he is still a kid and most likely not up on the symptoms of heat exhaustion. As for playing in the heat, that is a heck of a lot easier than sprints in the heat, rather rare for a kid to sprint the field 12 times in a row in a football game without a break of some sort.

A number of his teammates testified, and there's no reason not to believe them, that the young man was complaining of being sick all day. Maybe you think kids are morons or something, but a 15 year old kid ought to be able to figure out, all by his lonesome, when something isn't right phyiscally. And we wonder why we've got 20 somethings that can't take care of themselves. Hell, you're 3 years from being a legal adult and can't make a decision about how you're feeling phyiscally.

It's called conditioning, often involves doing things more intense than actual game work level and running 1,200 yards is hardly excessive. I suppose you could debate the effectiveness of something that will become such an aerobic exercise in an anaerobic sport like football. But if the kid were out for soccer, rugby, or field sports like that he'd probably be running 3 or 4 times that.

[chippa13 1844]

Complaining of being sick and knowing you're one lap from death are two different things. Let's not forget the grief this kid likely would have taken from coaches and/or teammates had he begged out of sprints for feeling ill. That enters into a young athletes mind when considering if he can go on. Running 1,200 yards on a nice fall day is probably not excessive, doing it in oppressive heat, possibly.

As for 20 somethings that cannot take care of themselves, that is an argument against kids being taught that nobody loses, everyone is a winner, and nobody fails.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

Complaining of being sick and knowing you're one lap from death are two different things. Let's not forget the grief this kid likely would have taken from coaches and/or teammates had he begged out of sprints for feeling ill. That enters into a young athletes mind when considering if he can go on. Running 1,200 yards on a nice fall day is probably not excessive, doing it in oppressive heat, possibly.

As for 20 somethings that cannot take care of themselves, that is an argument against kids being taught that nobody loses, everyone is a winner, and nobody fails.

I can't speak for every high school football program, but been around my fair share in various capacities. Have yet to encounter a coaching staff or athletic director that didn't tell the players not to practice or play sick and/or injuried. Legging out 12 gassers isn't excessive. If I were the coach here I probalby would have told them to loose the shoulder pads first, but in the grand scheme of things the problem seemed to be the drug the kid was taking for ADD, so that most likely would have not made much of a difference.

No, kids figure out that's BS before they're out of junior high. Constantly excusing them because they're "still kids" is a big issue. Not trying to blame the guy, it's a tragic way for a life to end. But end of the day 38 other kids since 1995 have died in similar circumstances. Playing a sport that is so taxing on the body is, however sad it may be, going to have accidents like this. If you're going to play in a situation where there are over 100 other guys out there you have to take some responsiblity for knowing when enough is enough. For knowing you're not feeling well and sitting out, and for knowing when there's something not right phyiscally. Treat them like children forever and they'll be children forever.

[LkptTiger 1]

Hell, you're 3 years from being a legal adult and can't make a decision about how you're feeling phyiscally.

Anyone who has played a sport at any kind of competitive level has played/practiced sick and hurt. How is the kid supposed to know the difference between "heavy legs" and "imminent death"?

Jesus, I've had pneumonia for about three weeks now - the first two weeks of which I was on the ice everyday and in the gym most days. I went from "feeling tired" to "coughing a lot" to "spitting-up blood" in a relatively short amount of time.....and tried my best to ignore the issues while failing in my attempts to hide them from anyone who might try to talk me into taking the situation more seriously. Ear and sinus infections finally pushed me over the edge - and it wasn't until after I went through a few more days of hacking-up bodily fluids while at the same time suffering with an ear that felt like it was on fire and constant pounding at the front of my face/head that I decided that it might be in my best interest to seek some medical advice and maybe try to take it easy for little bit...and I'm paying for it - only I'm lucky in that it didn't cost me my life; just 10 pounds of water weight (that I couldn't really afford to lose), a few hours of breathing through a machine and a couple weeks of recovery.

The kid didn't make a mistake. He wasn't feeling particularly well and he went to practice, anyway. We all do it.

Most athletes worth a damn have been pushing their bodies for years. There aren't many guys out there who haven't practiced through headaches or cramping or nausea or considerable fatigue (and much worse)...and those same guys probably aren't going to know when those symptoms stop being "feeling a bit under the weather" and start being signs of something more serious.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

Sure, we've all pushed it. And while we didn't pay for it with our lives this kid did. If you wouldn't have pulled through it would have been your fault for doing the things you did. Which to be honest with you were stupid beyond the norm. It certainly wouldn't have made your coach a murderer if you had perished during normal conditioning because of what you chose to do.

[Trooper 8]

3. Peer pressure to run and not be the first one to quit

Aside from that, "conditioning" based on when kids quit is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard. A common mindset among many coaches I'm sure, but asinine nonetheless.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

3. Peer pressure to run and not be the first one to quit

Aside from that, "conditioning" based on when kids quit is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard. A common mindset among many coaches I'm sure, but asinine nonetheless.

I would completely agree with that, but I tend to think this is really more an element of football culture. I don't believe the coach really intended to run gassers until someone dropped out. I remember two a day practices where the coaches said we were going to run 40 yard wind sprints until someone passed out. Reality: no one ever passed out. The point wasn't to overtrain, but to create a "no quit" mentality and mental toughness.

[Chadd 916]

3. Peer pressure to run and not be the first one to quit

Aside from that, "conditioning" based on when kids quit is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard. A common mindset among many coaches I'm sure, but asinine nonetheless.

I would completely agree with that, but I tend to think this is really more an element of football culture. I don't believe the coach really intended to run gassers until someone dropped out. I remember two a day practices where the coaches said we were going to run 40 yard wind sprints until someone passed out. Reality: no one ever passed out. The point wasn't to overtrain, but to create a "no quit" mentality and mental toughness.

I know many hockey coaches that make kids skate until someone pukes. They brag about how many pukers they get in early season practices.