Penguins 2009-2010

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

I believe we are entering the portion of the season where Fireonice and myself start hating each other again!!! :lol:

I will keep it civil this year, I was a bit of a douche last year.

I still hope the caps win 179-0

[Fire0nIce228 1]

Oh yes Thursday will be entertaining :)

Me too man, me too.

I hope to see a highscoring barn burner myself :) 7-5 Pens, Malkin and Ovie with hattys ;)

[Trooper 8]

Youth is not a substitute for rest. Despite their age they will be tired come playoffs if they arnt already. Doesnt mean they cant win the cup again, but it certainly does not help.

And why is this specific to the Penguins? I'm at a loss where the idea of resting star players is coming from.

[Chadd 916]

Youth is not a substitute for rest. Despite their age they will be tired come playoffs if they arnt already. Doesnt mean they cant win the cup again, but it certainly does not help.

And why is this specific to the Penguins? I'm at a loss where the idea of resting star players is coming from.

It's specific to the Pens because they have made two consecutive cup runs and have a number of players in the Olympics. The only other team that can say that is the Wings and they have had a ton of injuries this year. A lot of their guys have had some time off to rest.

Since the start of the playoffs in 2008 to today, Sid has played 171 regular season and playoff games. If he plays every game the rest of the way, it will be over 200 plus the Olympics. If they make another cup run, it would add another 20 or so games. Add it all up and you're looking at 230 or so games in 24 months or so.

[Machinehead2k5 32]

Since the start of the playoffs in 2008 to today, Sid has played 171 regular season and playoff games. If he plays every game the rest of the way, it will be over 200 plus the Olympics. If they make another cup run, it would add another 20 or so games. Add it all up and you're looking at 230 or so games in 24 months or so.

So roughly 9.5 games a month? That doesn't seem bad for a professional hockey player. Granted you get beat up every game. I'm sure there's a few beer leaguers that would love to play 9 games a month.

[Chadd 916]

Since the start of the playoffs in 2008 to today, Sid has played 171 regular season and playoff games. If he plays every game the rest of the way, it will be over 200 plus the Olympics. If they make another cup run, it would add another 20 or so games. Add it all up and you're looking at 230 or so games in 24 months or so.

So roughly 9.5 games a month? That doesn't seem bad for a professional hockey player. Granted you get beat up every game. I'm sure there's a few beer leaguers that would love to play 9 games a month.

Plus morning skates, plus practices and training camps

[Fire0nIce228 1]

Plus I'd venture Sid and Geno get beat up a little worse than most. Resting star players is nothing new. Colts in the NFL this year? Bylsma regularly gives guys 'maintenance days' throughout the season as he calls them, typically not making them practice every now and then. In my opinion its smart to do now, and smart to do later even sitting certain games if your in a good position in the standings.

[Machinehead2k5 32]

Plus I'd venture Sid and Geno get beat up a little worse than most. Resting star players is nothing new. Colts in the NFL this year? Bylsma regularly gives guys 'maintenance days' throughout the season as he calls them, typically not making them practice every now and then. In my opinion its smart to do now, and smart to do later even sitting certain games if your in a good position in the standings.

When they came up to Atlanta, they practiced at the Thrashers' rink. A few of them had maintenance days including the Kid.

[Trooper 8]

Nothing but pure speculation. Show me a correlation between number of games played over the course of a given time period (several seasons would be best) and injuries. Show me some stats on how much resting has helped. Account for age. I'm sure those numbers aren't out there. These kinds of things are nothing more than armchair quarterbacking.

Morning skates? Those probably do more to enhance recovery than sitting around resting.

[Chadd 916]

Nothing but pure speculation. Show me a correlation between number of games played over the course of a given time period (several seasons would be best) and injuries. Show me some stats on how much resting has helped. Account for age. I'm sure those numbers aren't out there. These kinds of things are nothing more than armchair quarterbacking.

Morning skates? Those probably do more to enhance recovery than sitting around resting.

It's funny that you demand proof yet it's ok for you to throw out speculation that is contrary to popular opinion. If a morning skate is so beneficial, why do coaches often allow players to miss it and cite rest as a reason?

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

Nothing but pure speculation. Show me a correlation between number of games played over the course of a given time period (several seasons would be best) and injuries. Show me some stats on how much resting has helped. Account for age. I'm sure those numbers aren't out there. These kinds of things are nothing more than armchair quarterbacking.

Morning skates? Those probably do more to enhance recovery than sitting around resting.

All there is at a quick glance is speculation

However, if you work 9-5 every day, monday to friday and get 2 weeks vacation thrown in there, then your boss tells you that you have to stop what you are doing, go to this other company, work for them for a couple of weeks, then come back and still finish your regular workload in the same time as last year, in addition to the fact that you have already worked a full half years production extra over the last 2 years, and it will take it's toll

Pens have played 44 playoff games in the past 2 season, which is 2.5 seasons (closer to 2.75/3 when you factor in the intensity level),

Throw in another 8 games for the olympics (assuming they get to the finals) and the shortened off seasons for each of the last two seasons to allow the body to heal from injuries etc

Sometimes you don't need science to tell you whats up.

You are also leaving out the fact that while they are doing these long runs in the playoffs, many other athletes that they will be competing against are already on their recovery phase, giving them the edge.

Look at the Isles, 8th spot in the east, only one olympian (streit) with the team, getting a break at the right time and they could be dangerous down the stretch

[Trooper 8]

Nothing but pure speculation. Show me a correlation between number of games played over the course of a given time period (several seasons would be best) and injuries. Show me some stats on how much resting has helped. Account for age. I'm sure those numbers aren't out there. These kinds of things are nothing more than armchair quarterbacking.

Morning skates? Those probably do more to enhance recovery than sitting around resting.

It's funny that you demand proof yet it's ok for you to throw out speculation that is contrary to popular opinion. If a morning skate is so beneficial, why do coaches often allow players to miss it and cite rest as a reason?

Why do so many coaches I know feel that 3-5 mile runs are so beneficial to their players for a sport that consists of 30-40 second shifts of high intensity skating? Why do they still do VO2max tests for an aerobic sport? Popular opinion is worthless. Most coaches, including those in the NHL, are pretty uneducated about such things. Check out Mike Boyle's work and see what he has to say about these things.

Sometimes you don't need science to tell you whats up.

Actually, when something is a scientific debate, science tends to clarify things. We should be able to look at the Chicago Bulls from their glory years and other dynasties and see a correlation of higher rates of injury, but the data isn't there.

Overuse and improper rest DO lead to injury, but a couple playoff runs or some Olympic games aren't that much more volume. Maybe because I'm an engineer, but I use data when I train my players, not popular opinion.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

Actually, when something is a scientific debate, science tends to clarify things. We should be able to look at the Chicago Bulls from their glory years and other dynasties and see a correlation of higher rates of injury, but the data isn't there.

Overuse and improper rest DO lead to injury, but a couple playoff runs or some Olympic games aren't that much more volume. Maybe because I'm an engineer, but I use data when I train my players, not popular opinion.

So you are saying playing 50% more games than many other athletes in the same profession will have little to no impact on the team, and they should be fresh.

The NBA has much longer rest periods between games in the playoffs, and much less physical contact than the NHL.

If you are looking at it from a scientific perspective, then you have an apple and an orange in your hand and trying to convince me that they are the same thing.

The Bulls glory years cannot be compared to an NHL team because of the nature of the sport and physics of the body.

And it's not a scientific debate, it's a bunch of hockey fans talking about potential pitfalls for a team who plays much more than any other team (red wings excluded) in the past 2 seasons and how it might wear on them.

I even said in my first line of response "All there is at a quick glance is speculation"

You might be an engineer, but that does not make you any more or less qualified to debate the merits of the argument when it comes to wear and tear on the human body. Only the players know themselves for sure and the NHL is a league where players routinely play through injury.

No one has scientific data, so no one has a conclusive answer. Simply dismissing anecdotal information while presenting no counter-data does not mean your response is correct, it just means you disagree with the other person.

But this ain't science, or a scientific debate, it's hockey

[Trooper 8]

The Bulls glory years cannot be compared to an NHL team because of the nature of the sport and physics of the body.

And it's not a scientific debate, it's a bunch of hockey fans talking about potential pitfalls for a team who plays much more than any other team (red wings excluded) in the past 2 seasons and how it might wear on them.

I even said in my first line of response "All there is at a quick glance is speculation"

You might be an engineer, but that does not make you any more or less qualified to debate the merits of the argument when it comes to wear and tear on the human body. Only the players know themselves for sure and the NHL is a league where players routinely play through injury.

No one has scientific data, so no one has a conclusive answer. Simply dismissing anecdotal information while presenting no counter-data does not mean your response is correct, it just means you disagree with the other person.

But this ain't science, or a scientific debate, it's hockey

I wasn't comparing the Bulls to hockey, but a team like the Bulls who went to the finals for years should have a higher injury rate than other NBA teams that never made the playoffs.

I didn't say being an engineer made me more or less qualified, please do not put words in my mouth and build a strawman, it makes me more inclined to require quantitative data and proof when evaluating an argument, nothing more.

As for not having scientific data, that's nonsense. If someone wanted to do it the data is out there. If you had the desire you could easily gather the number of games played per year, cross it with man-days lost to injury, isolate it by sport, age, etc. These data mining techniques are very common and telling given a big enough data set, which we could easily get across all the sports

I don't have to present counter data to dispute anecdotal evidence, as my argument wasn't against the premise as much as an argument against drawing conclusions from anecdotal evidence in general.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

I wasn't comparing the Bulls to hockey, but a team like the Bulls who went to the finals for years should have a higher injury rate than other NBA teams that never made the playoffs.

97/98 - Scottie Pippen only played 44 games, Steve Kerr played 50

96/97 - Tony Kukoc played 57 games, Dennis Rodman 55, Robert Parish 43

And so on, that's just the last 2 championship seasons. I am not a basketball fan, so only chose players I know of, there were many, in each season

I didn't say being an engineer made me more or less qualified, please do not put words in my mouth and build a strawman, it makes me more inclined to require quantitative data and proof when evaluating an argument, nothing more.

You said you are an engineer and use data to train players. I merely said that does not make you more qualified. You were creating the strawman that because you train players using data, you somehow had a better handle on the situation. I was using information you provided and simply said that information does not make you more qualified. I didn't pursue it beyond that so I was not creating any strawman. Your insinuation that you are an engineer and a trainer of players makes more of a strawman that I did

As for not having scientific data, that's nonsense. If someone wanted to do it the data is out there. If you had the desire you could easily gather the number of games played per year, cross it with man-days lost to injury, isolate it by sport, age, etc. These data mining techniques are very common and telling given a big enough data set, which we could easily get across all the sports

This is a casual hockey board for fans to talk hockey, equipment and other stuff. I actually have a job, and have no inclination to engage in data mining, which is why I said "AT A QUICK GLANCE, it's all speculation"

I don't have to present counter data to dispute anecdotal evidence, as my argument wasn't against the premise as much as an argument against drawing conclusions from anecdotal evidence in general.

Yet you present nothing but anecdotal information with statements like

"Morning skates? Those probably do more to enhance recovery than sitting around resting."

So, when coaches, trainers, former players and analysts talk about a stanley cup hangover, we should dismiss them out of hand because they haven't datamined appropriate levels of information?

[Trooper 8]

You said you are an engineer and use data to train players. I merely said that does not make you more qualified. You were creating the strawman that because you train players using data, you somehow had a better handle on the situation. I was using information you provided and simply said that information does not make you more qualified. I didn't pursue it beyond that so I was not creating any strawman. Your insinuation that you are an engineer and a trainer of players makes more of a strawman that I did

I make decisions on how to train my players based on scientific rational based on data by people who have studied training, such as Tudor Bompa and Mike Boyle. I was simply pointing out that I make decisions based on rational thought, not people who just claim common sense. If I was unclear that is my mistake.

This is a casual hockey board for fans to talk hockey, equipment and other stuff. I actually have a job, and have no inclination to engage in data mining, which is why I said "AT A QUICK GLANCE, it's all speculation"

True, it's just a discussion.

Yet you present nothing but anecdotal information with statements like

"Morning skates? Those probably do more to enhance recovery than sitting around resting."

There is ample evidence in support of active recovery.

So, when coaches, trainers, former players and analysts talk about a stanley cup hangover, we should dismiss them out of hand because they haven't datamined appropriate levels of information?

There are many things which are not measurable and require a qualitative assessment. I think the SC hangover falls under this category. It's probably more mental than anything. But there are plenty of examples of teams that have won championships and continued to play at a high level.

[Fire0nIce228 1]

Fleury optomistic to play Sunday

Pens raise $34,000 for Haiti

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburgh...=rss&feed=8

I thought they were saying last night that Fleury tried his new glove in the morning skate and had alot of pain, and that they needed to do work on the glove, hence him not playing last night. Sid and Geno lookd pretty good last night, both doin some 1 on 3's and coming out succesful, hope that continues for them :)

Dupuis, Talbot, Kuniz, Fleury, does this count as injury bug round 2 for the Pens? :(

side note, Ryan Malone is killing it down in Tampa...now I'm wishing we coulda fit him in somehow. :(

[camhockey16 5]

side note, Ryan Malone is killing it down in Tampa...now I'm wishing we coulda fit him in somehow. :(

agreed - but the pens can't afford him - i think pretty much everyone i have seen is happy for him even though we wish we still had him

another question - what is everyone's opinion of the penguins pp? i think they are currently 29th in the league. i have a lot of opinions about it - i just wish they would actually try something different cause it isn't working.

[Fire0nIce228 1]

They've tried some different stuff with Malkin on the half wall or the point, sid and malkin on the ice at the same time etc. I dunno. I think Kunitz injury really hampers them because he would be the guy infront and he's got good hands in tight.. Letang has to find his scoring touch and get more pucks on goal. Jordan Staal set up in front I think would be good. I think it may have gotten to much to the point where they look for the perfect play. I want to see them with one or two quick passes low to half wall, to point for a shot with traffic infront. If theyre pressuring the point, have Sid throwing passes through the slot down low with people crashing. I don't like the play they try with the player up in the high slot area. It seems like they very rarely get the puck to the player, and if they do it seems like most of the shots are junk. I dunno, its hard to sit here and say whats wrong with all those skilled players but sometimes I feel like they should just pound it at the net with Gonchar, Malkin, Letang, then let Crosby, Kunitz, Guerin, Staal sweep up trash..

I know if the PP was better than what it is we'd probably be looking plenty better points wise.

[Chadd 916]

They've tried some different stuff with Malkin on the half wall or the point, sid and malkin on the ice at the same time etc. I dunno. I think Kunitz injury really hampers them because he would be the guy infront and he's got good hands in tight.. Letang has to find his scoring touch and get more pucks on goal. Jordan Staal set up in front I think would be good. I think it may have gotten to much to the point where they look for the perfect play. I want to see them with one or two quick passes low to half wall, to point for a shot with traffic infront. If theyre pressuring the point, have Sid throwing passes through the slot down low with people crashing. I don't like the play they try with the player up in the high slot area. It seems like they very rarely get the puck to the player, and if they do it seems like most of the shots are junk. I dunno, its hard to sit here and say whats wrong with all those skilled players but sometimes I feel like they should just pound it at the net with Gonchar, Malkin, Letang, then let Crosby, Kunitz, Guerin, Staal sweep up trash..

I know if the PP was better than what it is we'd probably be looking plenty better points wise.

The problem is too many skill guys. With only one or two they would focus on using those guys to their best. Unfortunately, it's very hard to mesh Gonchar's blast from the point with Sid's passing. Since both are leftys they can't have both on their forehand so Sid can work the half boards and have Gonchar there for the one timer.

[camhockey16 5]

all of the announcers keep saying that they think having malkin & crosby out there at the same time is part of what is causing the problems because their natural position on the pp is the same place. I agree to some extent - but i also think they are trying to be too fancy and get empty net tip-ins like they used to do back in the 90's when they were loaded. It annoys me that gonchar can just wrist it on net and pick his spots - but none of the other defenseman are even willing to shoot.

[Chadd 916]

all of the announcers keep saying that they think having malkin & crosby out there at the same time is part of what is causing the problems because their natural position on the pp is the same place. I agree to some extent - but i also think they are trying to be too fancy and get empty net tip-ins like they used to do back in the 90's when they were loaded. It annoys me that gonchar can just wrist it on net and pick his spots - but none of the other defenseman are even willing to shoot.

When you have forwards spread out and no real screen, it's a wasted shot. If they want to shake things up, Gonchar and Letang (he's RH isn't he?) at the point playing catch, with Guerin, Kunitz and Staal up front. Get it back to the line and blast away. $10 says that group does better than what they've been putting out there night after night.

[camhockey16 5]

yeah, that's the other problem they have - most of the team is lefties - letang is the only right handed defenseman and the rare times that he actually shoots he always misses high or wide. unlike gonchar who always get his shots through even when he has to settle for a wrist shot (which is suprisingly effective for him).

i shake my head when i see teams like the anaheim, edmonton, and dallas 10, 11, 12 in the league and the penguins at the bottom with all the talent they have. i noticed when teams have a powerplay against the penguins - for the most part they just have their defenseman blast it at the net and keep it relatively simple, taking whatever the team gives them. The penguins always seem to be forcing passes and trying low percentage plays.

I actually agree - if you put gonchar letang kunitz guerin and staal out there i bet they would average closer to 20%

[Chadd 916]

yeah, that's the other problem they have - most of the team is lefties - letang is the only right handed defenseman and the rare times that he actually shoots he always misses high or wide. unlike gonchar who always get his shots through even when he has to settle for a wrist shot (which is suprisingly effective for him).

He's young and he has a really hard shot. Odds are that he will eventually figure out that you don't have to kill every shot from the blue line.

[jeffw 1]

Yeah it's gotten to the point that when I hear '...and the Penguins are going on the power play' I think 'big deal...'