Feedback/Questions about Subscriptions

[Chadd 916]

I guess ebay is that solution. What's the rational for trying to prevent sales via PM?

Because sales not done in the open are more susceptible to fraud.

It's just too bad there is not a better solution that would give paying members a bigger market to sell to.

Selling product is not the primary function of this site. Never has been, never will be.

In my opinion, it makes the most sense to open it up to anyone who wants to buy, but require membership to sell. That's just my opinion though, and the mods who decided the direction to take this clearly know what they are doing since this site is so successful already.

We put a lot of thought into the current setup and consulted a number of members before putting it in place. This was the best solution and was the least susceptible to people trying to game the system.

Also, I would like a little gold star next to my name that says I support the site! Like the little star stickers you get in grade school for doing your homework. Kidding...

Right under your name and avatar, where it says "member++", that means you have supported the site with your donation. Thank you and the many other people who have helped make the site financially self-sustaining.

[mug25 2]

Because sales not done in the open are more susceptible to fraud.

Selling product is not the primary function of this site. Never has been, never will be.

We put a lot of thought into the current setup and consulted a number of members before putting it in place. This was the best solution and was the least susceptible to people trying to game the system.

Right under your name and avatar, where it says "member++", that means you have supported the site with your donation. Thank you and the many other people who have helped make the site financially self-sustaining.

was purely a joke ;) But you're welcome.

[JJStripes 1]

What if everyone can BUY but only paid members can SELL???

I hope you aren't mocking my suggestion. It makes perfect sense because the person bearing the risk in these types of online transactions is always the buyer because items are paid for prior to being shipped. It is reasonable to want only paid and reputable members to have the ability to sell. In addition, it would benefit the paid members to increase the size of the market for their old hockey gear.

Selling product is not the primary function of this site. Never has been, never will be.

What in the world is your point? Although it's not the primary function, shall we not attempt to make that small element of the site as good as it could be.

Honestly, I'm not decided either way at this point, but it just occurred to me that I might be interested in buying a pair of gloves. As I described earlier, I logged on, and learned that it would cost me $10 to see what was available. Other than covering the cost associated with a skate some members participate in and whatever else, it does not benefit the seller of the gloves i may have bought or me, the potential buyer.

Maybe keeping it small is the point. If that's the case then I'm fine with that and it will definitely serve it's function. Either way, it's worth talking about.

[Chadd 916]

Maybe keeping it small is the point. If that's the case then I'm fine with that and it will definitely serve it's function. Either way, it's worth talking about.

The point is to provide income to support the site and keep the amount of effort required to manage to a minimum. Giving everyone read access and allowing sales to occur via PM would result in less revenue to support the site and a much higher likelihood of fraud.

As I said before, we did this with input from a number of people that used the Gear Exchange in the past. JR and I have talked about how to implement a fee for use of the Gear Exchange for years, this is not something we entered into lightly. We don't expect everyone on the site to participate and we fully understand if you choose not to do so, but we are not going to make any changes at this point.

[ean 0]

why not just make access to the site 10 dollars?

[Chadd 916]

why not just make access to the site 10 dollars?

We aren't in it to raise as much money as possible We love the sport and try to give back to the industry and players, we're not out to get rich. We don't even require people to be members to read the site, so making people pay to read is obviously a step we just aren't interested in taking. The fact that the site is self supporting at this time (especially given the current economy) is very encouraging.

Anyone reaching the member+ level is welcome to donate to support the site, even if they choose not to partake of the gear exchange. We don't expect everyone to do so, but we certainly do appreciate those that choose to donate.

[ndlancer95 0]

I'm setting up a bank account soon so I'll happily contribute to help this site

[mug25 2]

I hope you aren't mocking my suggestion. It makes perfect sense because the person bearing the risk in these types of online transactions is always the buyer because items are paid for prior to being shipped. It is reasonable to want only paid and reputable members to have the ability to sell. In addition, it would benefit the paid members to increase the size of the market for their old hockey gear.

Chill pill my friend. Not mocking your suggestion — I didn't even see your post. I merely made the same suggestion as you.

The point is to provide income to support the site and keep the amount of effort required to manage to a minimum. Giving everyone read access and allowing sales to occur via PM would result in less revenue to support the site and a much higher likelihood of fraud.

As I said before, we did this with input from a number of people that used the Gear Exchange in the past. JR and I have talked about how to implement a fee for use of the Gear Exchange for years, this is not something we entered into lightly. We don't expect everyone on the site to participate and we fully understand if you choose not to do so, but we are not going to make any changes at this point.

I actually LIKE the system a lot. I'm a member of several Mustang forums (the car not the horse) and the classifieds are always full of garbage posts. For example, you'll find a dozen "Gauging Interest" threads where a guy is like "Uhhh I think I might want to sell my wheels, what would you guys offer?"

The membership access keeps the Classifieds clean and organized in my opinion. I've already sold a piece of gear and purchased a couple of sticks within a few weeks of being a Member++. Granted, I technically LOST money on my sale ($+5 more than I sold it for to ship +$10 membership) I'm sure the $10 will pay for itself in the long run once I sell some more gear.

[DoubleT96 0]

I am pretty much indifferent about the $10.00 charge for participating in the Gear Section. I have been participating in ModSquad (and the pre-cursor Corebeam site) for years, and although as i get older, the less time I find I am able to play such a great game, this site has always been a great place to research equipment, meet people, share ideas and exchange gear. My only question with the new subscription service is will the Mods provide the site members with a balance sheet at the end of year as a courtesy gesture to the paying members to show them where their money has been spent?

I understand the $10 fee is generally for the purpose of keeping the site running and paying for extracurricular activities like the MSN skate, etc., however, I think it would be a courtesy to those members that have been generous enough to contribute to the site to show them how their payments were used over the course of the year and how much money, if any, is left over at the end of the year.

[mug25 2]

I am pretty much indifferent about the $10.00 charge for participating in the Gear Section. I have been participating in ModSquad (and the pre-cursor Corebeam site) for years, and although as i get older, the less time I find I am able to play such a great game, this site has always been a great place to research equipment, meet people, share ideas and exchange gear. My only question with the new subscription service is will the Mods provide the site members with a balance sheet at the end of year as a courtesy gesture to the paying members to show them where their money has been spent?

I understand the $10 fee is generally for the purpose of keeping the site running and paying for extracurricular activities like the MSN skate, etc., however, I think it would be a courtesy to those members that have been generous enough to contribute to the site to show them how their payments were used over the course of the year and how much money, if any, is left over at the end of the year.

Domain name ~$10yr

Hosting ~$20/mo+ for a "decent plan". For a GOOD plan you can spend much more. It adds up fast.

[Chadd 916]

I am pretty much indifferent about the $10.00 charge for participating in the Gear Section. I have been participating in ModSquad (and the pre-cursor Corebeam site) for years, and although as i get older, the less time I find I am able to play such a great game, this site has always been a great place to research equipment, meet people, share ideas and exchange gear. My only question with the new subscription service is will the Mods provide the site members with a balance sheet at the end of year as a courtesy gesture to the paying members to show them where their money has been spent?

I understand the $10 fee is generally for the purpose of keeping the site running and paying for extracurricular activities like the MSN skate, etc., however, I think it would be a courtesy to those members that have been generous enough to contribute to the site to show them how their payments were used over the course of the year and how much money, if any, is left over at the end of the year.

It is something we have considered and will probably do so at year end, at least in general numbers, since we'll have to figure out those numbers for taxes anyway. I only say "general numbers" because I don't know how well we will be able to track (or more importantly, total) paypal fees and the like and I don't want to promise something I'm not able deliver.

Hosting ~$20/mo+ for a "decent plan". For a GOOD plan you can spend much more. It adds up fast.

We have a very good deal with our hosting company.

[DoubleT96 0]

It is something we have considered and will probably do so at year end, at least in general numbers, since we'll have to figure out those numbers for taxes anyway. I only say "general numbers" because I don't know how well we will be able to track (or more importantly, total) paypal fees and the like and I don't want to promise something I'm not able deliver.

We have a very good deal with our hosting company.

I would think general numbers would be sufficient with the majority of members. I thought I saw a response that indicated 192 subscription members (that number has likely increased) so if you round up to 200 members @ $10, that generates about $2000. Some of that is then used for the website up-keep (someone listed a figure of $20/month +$10/year domain fee = ~$250?) leaving a remainder to be used for MSN skates, parties etc. I think if you publish generally what is left over at the end of the year, that should be sufficient for most.

Glad to see that the site is continuously growing to provide one of the best, if not the best, hockey forum around.

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

The money we generate won't pay for the MSH Skate as the participants pay for that. We're not going to take your money and make sure someone else has a good time with that. We will use the money however to pre-pay for the events that we do, but the participant will pay us back.

Unlimited bandwidth is not cheap; that being said, we do have a great deal with our provider.

[shotty 7]

I don't even think providing a balance sheet is necessary. MSH is not a publicly traded company, if the people who run this site can turn some kind of profit or generate some revenue (intentional or not), good for them. it costs extra to access a section of the site where personal benefit can be attained, what is so hard to understand about that?

I applaud the mods for being so gentle and considerate in discussing this topic. with the amount of money that changes hands here, I'm glad MSH can get a fraction of it, to keep things running.

[Shayno 1]

Do you(MSH) pay tax on the $10 fee? Curious? Why don't you just charge anyone who wants to do a transaction on the buy and sell forum, a $10 fee???

Seems kinda silly, as I may get there(buy and sell) and the only thing there is a pr of used smelly hockey socks? Not even being to see whats there? But required to prepay $10 to see it? Seems to me there has to be a better way of getting the site some $???

Thanks...and also...i just read through 6 pages of comments and could not find one negative? Am I going to get booted if I question this policy? Hmmmmmm

[Krev 86]

If there was only one pair of smelly socks being sold, there wouldn't be a $10 fee to access the buy/sell forum.

[Chadd 916]

Do you(MSH) pay tax on the $10 fee? Curious? Why don't you just charge anyone who wants to do a transaction on the buy and sell forum, a $10 fee???

Seems kinda silly, as I may get there(buy and sell) and the only thing there is a pr of used smelly hockey socks? Not even being to see whats there? But required to prepay $10 to see it? Seems to me there has to be a better way of getting the site some $???

Thanks...and also...i just read through 6 pages of comments and could not find one negative? Am I going to get booted if I question this policy? Hmmmmmm

We have to pay a fee to payal for the transaction and obviously we have to pay income taxes, as I mentioned in a previous post.

I'm not going to try and convince anyone that they should pay the $10, I'm not here to be a salesman. We currently have over 200 people participating in the Gear Exchange, feel free to pick a few at random and ask them via PM if they feel it is worth the expense to them. We don't expect everyone to participate and we don't hold anything against those that choose not to participate.

If you've read all of the other pages of this topic you will have noted that we discussed several models and this was the easiest to manage and was the least likely to be abused. We don't have the time or manpower to manage a transaction for each and every ad listing and we're not going to implement a system that can be cicumvented with so little effort as to make it worthless. If that means only a couple hundred out of our 10,000 members choose to participate, so be it.

We will continue to look for ways to improve the forum and ensure that those that donate feel they are getting value for their donation.

[DoubleT96 0]

I don't even think providing a balance sheet is necessary. MSH is not a publicly traded company, if the people who run this site can turn some kind of profit or generate some revenue (intentional or not), good for them. it costs extra to access a section of the site where personal benefit can be attained, what is so hard to understand about that? <<With all due respect, the "Paid Subscriptions to Gear Exchange FAQ section states,

"It is not our goal to "get rich" and we are not doing this for the money. There are too many people involved in running this site for the relatively small amount we expect to be left over after expenses to be of any consequence. Any money from the account will be used for events like the MSH Skate, new swag, trade show related expenses and other ancillary costs that come with running and operating the site."

The mods have stated that do not want to make a profit (not including nominal profits) of the member's fees. I don't think its unreasonable to provide those who decide to pay for the purpose of supporting the site to know the money is going to the site (please note that I am not accusing or assuming the fees will be used otherwise). An organization doesn't have to be a "publicly traded company" in order to provide their members with a general understanding as to how the fees are being used. Many memberships i.e., fraternities, social clubs, non-profit orgs, etc., provide their members with this type of information. If the mods state that the money will be used for certain events, then it was just a suggestion to show the members what events, etc. the money was used for. I don't feel that is "so hard to understand."

[shotty 7]

dude, i said "intentional or not" for a purpose.

i'm not going to get into it again, if you want me to school you, PM me.

[Shayno 1]

There's 200 members participating out of 10000........2% of total members?..I guess that says it all? This doesn't give you reason to re-think the system? I was on the fence regarding paying the $10.....of course its not the price............but now that I found out there are only 200 possible buyers and sellers......I decided against..........Thanks!

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

That's fine, Shayno. As of right now, there's only 134 topics (and it is essentially all multiple items) and 4265 replies in the sale forum (not buy forum) in less than 30 days, as I purge any threads that haven't been responded to in 30 days.

[Gummer12 134]

Quality...not Quantity. I threw my $10 in the hat from the get go..And have yet to buy anything. Well, wait, I did get a couple brand new pro stock sticks that turned out to be MUCH Better than what I expected..and for a GREAT Price. That transaction alone was worth the fee. I don't expect to persuade you to sign up..but just trying to shed a light on what's available to you should you jump aboard.

[Chadd 916]

There's 200 members participating out of 10000........2% of total members?..I guess that says it all? This doesn't give you reason to re-think the system? I was on the fence regarding paying the $10.....of course its not the price............but now that I found out there are only 200 possible buyers and sellers......I decided against..........Thanks!

Only a little more than 1100 members have reached the Member+ status, where they would even have the option of paying for it. Also, senior members, mods and associate mods are all given access to the forum as well. In other words, roughly 18% of the people that have the option to pay, do so. 22% of those eligible to participate, have access to the forum when the other groups are factored in. To be honest, those numbers are higher than I expected before we did this.

but now that I found out there are only 200 possible buyers and sellers......I decided against..........Thanks!

No problem, enjoy the rest of the site. It can only be as good as our members make it.

[jsykes 35]

I know you guys have gone over it before, but it doesnt hurt to post an opinion.

I'm also of the opinion that anyone should be able to view the section and have the option to buy, but you should have to pay to sell. This has worked wonderfully on a photo forum that I go to and they have many, many people paying to sell because the potential buying community is so large.

I think this would only benefit the sellers and encourage more participation as the potential to actually sell items would be much greater.

Again, I like the site and am not trying to convince you of anything, just thought I'd put out my 2 cents and maybe it could be considered at some point as I'd be much more likely to participate if I knew I had a potential buying audience of more than a couple hundred people.

Thanks for the work on the site guys.

[Chadd 916]

I know you guys have gone over it before, but it doesnt hurt to post an opinion.

I'm also of the opinion that anyone should be able to view the section and have the option to buy, but you should have to pay to sell. This has worked wonderfully on a photo forum that I go to and they have many, many people paying to sell because the potential buying community is so large.

I think this would only benefit the sellers and encourage more participation as the potential to actually sell items would be much greater.

Again, I like the site and am not trying to convince you of anything, just thought I'd put out my 2 cents and maybe it could be considered at some point as I'd be much more likely to participate if I knew I had a potential buying audience of more than a couple hundred people.

Thanks for the work on the site guys.

We're comfortable with the current model at this time. Before the end of the year (when the first subscriptions expire) we will review things and see if any changes need to be made. At this time I think it's unlikely that we will change the program after the review, but that will depend on private feedback from the members who have participated over the course of this year and their impressions of how it worked for them.