Disgrace-Iraq

[Guest phillyfan]

Most of you probably have seen on the news already what happened in Irag, that makes me sick. That is wrong, and even as enemies, they should no way in hell treat the dead such as they did.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...e_mi_ea/iraq_15

And, GWB refuses to withdrawl from Iraq, typical. I ask why we are still there? To re-build Iraq? Let the other nations who refused to help at the begining, but now want oil do it. He officially delcared the war over, and we've lost 77% of the dead AFTER the declaration of the end of the War.

[Dan_The_Man_16 0]

That is absoloutly terrible, and the Americans can't withdraw from Iraq because they don't want to seem week, IMO.

[kosydar 0]

Its not that withdrawing would make America look weak, its just that why start something and not finish it? Withdrawing would let those few Iraqi bitches win, which is what nobody wants. Plus, if this is still happening, obviously theres more work to be done. Its not a matter of whether or not we shoul dhave went, face it, we've already been there. Now its just about doing the best job possible.

[mack 44]

Then there's also the aspect of why should they fight someone else's war? Just seems pointless right now, US deaths not withstanding.

[Guest phillyfan]

GWB has already disgraced this country, going against and completely ignoring the UN, and starting the War on Terror. Ok, I can live with that, if we succeed. He decalres the end of the war, and it was no where close to the end of the war.

[Vapor 0]

And, GWB refuses to withdrawl from Iraq, typical. I ask why we are still there? To re-build Iraq? Let the other nations who refused to help at the begining, but now want oil do it. He officially delcared the war over, and we've lost 77% of the dead AFTER the declaration of the end of the War.

I am not acting like I am a 50 year old war veteren here, BUT, I do believe I have a grasp on politics, and such. Pulling out now would be one of the most detremental things which could happean in the middle east to date. There is one democratic state in the middle east. Isreal. Iraq, which borders Iran and Syria (stage 2) is a hotbed for terorist activity. Pulling out now would show the rest of the world our weekness. It would leave rebel forces in charge, such as the sooni's, most of which support the terrorism, which comes out of the sooni triangle. Most of the terrorists are sponsored by other states, such as Iran or Syria. BTW, bush declaired major combat missions over. Defeating the Bathest resigme, is in my opinion the major combat in Iraq. Did we pull out of Germany? Did we pull out of Japan? Look at those countries today.

[Vapor 0]

GWB has already disgraced this country, going against and completely ignoring the UN, and starting the War on Terror. Ok, I can live with that, if we succeed. He decalres the end of the war, and it was no where close to the end of the war.

AHHHHHHH. DONT BELIEVE THE LIBERAL MEDIA!!!! AHHH OMG! Now that I have calmed down. IGNORING THE UN!! WHAT THE FFFF..... how about the 14 resolutions that Iraq ignored!!! Nahh, let them go, let the supporter of terrorism go. But we have the balls to stand up to them, and we are the bad guy? Get an education. The next thing you said was disturbing. Starting the war on terror? We get attached by Al Queda, and you dont support it? Again, he declared the end of MAJOR MILITARY COMBAT.

[Guest phillyfan]

Point taken regarding the Germany and Japan situations, and to further back that up, look at Somolia. But, just having American troops die everyday, accomplishing nothing, isn't that a sign of a weakness? Our goal was to go into Iraq, obliterate the Saddam Regime, and set up some sort of government.(Only because of the oil, do you think if Iraq was a major Apple producer we'd be there helping?) The answer is no. But, the Shites(means Shitheads in English), or whatever other extremist over there, bombing and blowing up the only lifeline they have to their peoples survival, is showing us, me at least, that they don;t want us there, fine, the hell with them, saves us a hell of a lot of work, and tax-payers money.

[Guest phillyfan]

GWB has already disgraced this country, going against and completely ignoring the UN, and starting the War on Terror. Ok, I can live with that, if we succeed. He decalres the end of the war, and it was no where close to the end of the war.

AHHHHHHH. DONT BELIEVE THE LIBERAL MEDIA!!!! AHHH OMG! Now that I have calmed down. IGNORING THE UN!! WHAT THE FFFF..... how about the 14 resolutions that Iraq ignored!!! Nahh, let them go, let the supporter of terrorism go. But we have the balls to stand up to them, and we are the bad guy? Get an education. The next thing you said was disturbing. Starting the war on terror? We get attached by Al Queda, and you dont support it? Again, he declared the end of MAJOR MILITARY COMBAT.

The UN and, for the most part, the rest of the world, was against us invading Iraq. I worder the, "Starting war on terror," wrong, what I meant by that was soley towards Iraq. I am all for the War on terror, and against Al Queda, but was not in favor on the War on Iraq, confused the two wars, my mistake. But, us having the balls to stand up against them is fine, and I agree. But, GWB's intent was not 100% towards the Iraqi Peoples liberation, but a good chunk of that percentage towards getting in a big chunk of the pie regarding their oil.

[kosydar 0]

But so far we have obliterated Saddam's regime and are setting up "some sort of government". You can't expect to set up an effective government overnight. Things like this take time. Has this been as smooth as hoped? No. Is it worth it? Yes. Saying that the Iraqi people don't appreciate this is absolute crap. The reason that you think they don't is because of the small faction of them who kill the Americans and make the news. The rest who are happy of the American intervention don't make the news, so you obviously don't hear about them, but believe me, they are there. And you know the whole thing about Bush doing this for oil how? Thats just your assumption, so don't play it off as fact.

[Guest phillyfan]

I know about the Iraqis that use their head, and have some sort of education. But, since the extremists are such a small minority, why don't the other 95% of the citizens rise up, and fight back against the extremists to protect their own futures. I am not saying to start a Civil War, and I certainly don't expect it overnight. But, I'd expect morre to be done by the Iraqi people...

[Vapor 0]

I know about the Iraqis that use their head, and have some sort of education. But, since the extremists are such a small minority, why don't the other 95% of the citizens rise up, and fight back against the extremists to protect their own futures. I am not saying to start a Civil War, and I certainly don't expect it overnight. But, I'd expect morre to be done by the Iraqi people...

Come on kid. Where do you think that the money is coming from to fund the rebels? Its coming from Iran and Syria. You think that regular citizens are gonna rise up and fight back with terrorists? For one, they dont have funding, secondly, how do you attack a faceless attacker. BTW, I dont know if you knew this, seems that you do not. Shiites and Soonis are types of mulsims. The Iraqi Shiites are mostly on the American side. And what the HELL are you talking about in Somolia. We pulled out of Somolia. You have proven my point EXACTLY. It is now utter chaos there. Thanks

[ponty 0]

I always laugh at the liberal media comment. Apparently most folks dont watch Fox or MSNBC

[Kirsch 1]

LOL Vapor. Liberal media, what a joke.

[Kirsch 1]

I don't think that comment is directed toward me in anyway but I will just say that I have 1 aunt who just returned from a year long campaign serving as head nurse of a medical base in Tikrit, 1 cousin who just returned from a 1 year tour on a navy vessel in Bahrain, who will be returing aboard a different vessel shortly, and I have 1 uncle who was just shipped out and is a Engineer in an Army outfit. Although I don't agree with the majority of the Bush administrations policy and will voice my opinion on it whenever I feel necessary I do whole heartedly support our troops.

[ponty 0]

I will always respect the guys that go there. Hell I play hockey right now with guys who just came back. They are based out of Ft. Carson.

I intially supported this war for this reason and I thought that our president would not lie.

Well its apparent that I am a fool at the later of the two.

[Chadd 916]

I honestly think that removal of a brutal dictator like Hussein was reason enough to send troops into Iraq. I think it's wrong that they tried to embellish the links to terrorism and WMD thing is still open for debate.

One thing to keep in mind is the fact that two of the three ethnic groups are the Sunni's who had been in power and the Shi'ite who are essentially the same fundamentalists who rule Iran. The people there are trying to create a democratic government in an region that has never really had one before. Add to that the fact that anyone who showed any type of leadership skills was put to death before they could be be a rival.

[Eman24dx 0]

Question: Not sure if this was answered or not but If they did'nt have WMD's then why would'nt they let the inspectors look? If you accuse me of stealing your hockey stick and I say, No I did'nt steal your stick but your not allowed to look in my garage. I know its a stupid example but you get the point.

[Chadd 916]

I recall that some of it was sent to Syria before the troops came in, or so they believed.

[PiKappaPhi 0]

I just want to say that I support Bush 100%, Huessain has no business still being in power after the thousands and thousands of people who he has murdered. Here is a number I heard on NPR that 49% of 16000 people surveyed in Iraq said that they personally were tortured, had body parts removed, or had a family member go "missing". What the hell, I just want to know why this guy was in power as long as he has been.

If anyone really thinks that all we care about is the oil, you have your head stuck up your rear and you clearly haven't done any real reading or paid attention to the subject. I wish this whole war hadn't been based on terroism, but I think that we were right to worry about WMD. He has gassed thousands of people before in North Iraq.

Can someone let me know when Bush lied? I was under the impression that it was actually the head of intelligence that briefs the president was to blame.

[ponty 0]

"No new taxes ..." Ooops sorry that was the other one.

I am not going to debate this any more. This is one of those topics that you are on one side or another. I leave it at that.

[Chadd 916]

Seems the only thing we haven't talked about is Paul Horning lately.

[Dave 1]

I do not want to get fully involved into this debate. My point of view is literally from the other end of the world.

First off, I feel sorry for the soldiers who didn't leave Iraq alive. I have myself been in the army so I know what it means to obey orders that serve a purpose that is not your own.

But I just want to comment on two things:

1. I cannot understand the comparison between Iraq now and Germany then. Although the war against the Nazi regime was much harder for the allied forces to win than the war against Sadam, the rebuilding of a civil society in Germany was much easier than it will ever be in Iraq.

Germans at the time of WW2 were no religious extremists. Iraqis were grown up to hate Isreal and the USA. Germans already had a solid sense for and experience with democracy which Iraqis cannot have until this day. So once the war against the Nazi regime was won, there was no more para-military/terrorist aggression against the allied forces. So in the end, rebuilding Germany and making it a peaceful and democratic country was much easier than rebuilding Iraq. This leads to my second point:

2. I think that (aside from the general question if the war on Iraq was justified!) the US administration has underestimated the risks and challenges they would encounter after the war.

(One small sidenote: The USA have until this day NOT declared the end of the war against Iraq, only the end of military actions. This has to do with international law and makes a big difference. I don't want to go into detail here because it is not relevant for my point).

Winning the war by military means was easier than expected. There was no doubt from the beginning that the Iraqi regime would be successfully removed.

BUT it was IMO clear, that the true challenge would come AFTER the war. And I think in these matters the US were (excuse me for the term) naive. Many thought that after the war things would go smoothly like they had in Germany 50 years earlier. That all Iraqis would welcome the allied forces as liberators. As things stand now, this sadly isn't the case in Iraq.

The conditions for a peaceful and democratic society in Iraq just are non-existent.

a) The different ethnic and religious groups inside the Iraqi society will never stop the war on each other. By no means will it be possible to build a truely democratic society in a country that has always been reigned by clans and antagonized religous groups.

b) The USA made the "mistake" to get their troops into the heart of a region (the middle-east) that is full of hatred against Isreal and the USA and full of terrorists. Honestly, if you see things from the eyes of a terrorist who is domiciled in the middle-east, the arrival of US troops would not SCARE you (because the "average" terrorist can easily hide) but you would see it as a CHANCE). All terrorists in the middle east will have packed their bags and headed to Iraq because finally (from their point of view, not mine!) they can attack their enemy right in front of their own door. No more need to go long and difficult ways to get sleepers into the highly protected US.

Sorry this got so long.

[Vapor 0]

LOL Vapor. Liberal media, what a joke.

Well, ABC, CBS, and dont tell me that NBC is conservative, they are a very liberal network. Further more, most big newspapers are liberal, as the old gray lady, which has the largest circulation in the country.

[ponty 0]

LOL Vapor.  Liberal media, what a joke.

Well, ABC, CBS, and dont tell me that NBC is conservative, they are a very liberal network. Further more, most big newspapers are liberal, as the old gray lady, which has the largest circulation in the country.

You have an O'Reily poster in your bed room dont you? ;)