RBK 11k or Totalone skates

[Havok19 0]

I have the TO and i had the 11k (they are now on my son feets) and both are good.What i liked a lot about the TO is they are light and when you get them baked they fit like a glove.But IMO the tongue is a gimmick i tryed every stifness and i have yet to see any improvement on my skating.Now the 11k (i bought the white ones) look wise they are a head turner and it felt really good right out of the box even without baking.But they are about 200 g heavier per skate compared to the TO.The E pro is good has the tuuk ls2 but the steel make the difference.

So you really need to try them.

[TBLfan 25]

Without going into detail, it's a fully moldable composite skate. It's more than just some moldable foam in a non-reactive boot. They aren't in the same technological class, the U+ could be considered in the same class but not the 11K.

[skyscrape 5]

I think for the guy that wants a softer more traditional skate, the 11k is a great choice.

[Chadd 916]

No I specifically asked you to go into detail and not repeat what Bauer marketing department spits out, so what is so technological about it? Which you can’t answer. I will answer it for you.

Next time, leave this part out. There's no need to be a prick.

[TBLfan 25]

So what you're saying is it's a moldable skate with a thermoplastic shell? With thermoplastic, there is a cracking issue with flexion, that is solved by adding various differing forms of plastic and/or fibrous materials. Correct? Wouldn't that make the final thermoplastic a composite material?

[DarkStar50 679]

Rubo,

1. Figure skate boot construction is far behind hockey boot construction. Traditional construction methods and designs in figure boots are not pushing their product at all. There are also major issues with quality control in figure skate boots from the leading vendors. I see this daily in my shop as we work with elite Olympic figure competitors and their boots and blades. Also, the life of a high end figure boot is short, especially when compared to a high end hockey boot for retail pricing.

2. Regarding your information on “Thermoplastic”, "Same theory is here, it might be one", what part is theory and speculation, and what part is fact?

[TBLfan 25]

A skate that molds on multiple levels is revolutionary, that's why companies are following in the footsteps of Kor and taking the molding process to a new level. If it isn't revolutionary they why the hell did CCM completely build a new skate every year for the past 3 years trying to duplicate the concept? Adding in flex to the design adds in more revolutionary technology, just ask Easton... and I'm sure we'll be able to ask CCM in a year or two.

[pby 0]

Thanks for the patent link, it was pretty insightful. Though I was wondering what do they mean by a 3D shell, a one piece shell?

[DarkStar50 679]

Rubo, what skates have you worn? What skates are you wearing now? How often do you skate weekly? Do you work in a LHS?

[DarkStar50 679]

Alive is very durable and strong. Get a ONE95 or ONE100.

[SolarWind 23]

Alive is very durable and strong. Get a ONE95 or ONE100.

and not T1s? ;)

[DarkStar50 679]

Not sure if he has the $$$!!! :laugh:

[MLSman 22]

When picking a skate on the retail side, fit is really the only thing that matters when comparing top end skates. You can discuss the differences in the technology and materials...but that is almost irrelevant if the skate doesn't fit properly. The only time that matters is when you decide to go custom, because the proper fit would be addressed for any skate you choose, so you eliminate the differences in the retail last.

Classic example: I took a guy I was working on a project for in Pittsburgh to KO Sports because he really needed a new pair of skates. He is about 240lbs, and his old Vector 7s were just not enough boot for him. They broke down very fast and his progress was suffering. He had his mind set on looking at the Bauer One100 and the CCM U+ CLs. I told him to keep his mind open...and focus only on the fit. He tried the One100 and the TOs...and felt way too much pressure at the edges of his foot. They did not have the CLs in his size. I showed him the 11Ks, and forced him to try it on. He LOVED the fit. They were perfect for him.

Now, after only a few skates, he is raving about how much easier it is for him to skate, and I expect his progress to increase significantly this year because he has a proper fit and the right support. The guys at the store were very happy to see someone helping another person out with the right priorities...and no preference for a brand on the customer. There were 4 people trying on skates at the same time and it was contagious as all of them...coming in with a skate they thought they wanted...trying on skates they NEVER would have tried if they didn't have the right advice.

When dealing with skates in the same class, brand comparisons are really a waste of time when your looking to buy a retail skate. Then again for many...like Vathsdrop...ignorance is bliss.

[MLSman 22]

You are right sorry.

The other problem I could not get past in the 11k's was the epro holder! I felt like I was on my heels and in a hole! I lost quite a bit of speed on the first step because I kept finding myself in a non athletic stance.

Skyscrape...those issues can easily be addressed with lifts and proper blade profiling. Heel lifts are designed to give you a forward stance, and lifts on the front of the boot will give you more of a heel oriented stance. Lifts are the most permanent and cost effective way to completely address this issue. Profiling will also allow you to adjust your stance to find the proper alignment, but can be more costly because you will have to continue to address the profile with every subsequent sharpening. A good skate shop will ask questions about hollows and profiles...but most don't so you will have to re-profile frequently.

[TBLfan 25]

CCM tries to come with new design simply to stay in the game, and most of the designs or ideas are borrowed from Easton. Actually their most successful skate is probably 11k which is mostly traditional materials.

Kor has done absolutely nothing in the invention world, everything was invented by speed skating companies like Bont way before Kor, they simply took the speed boot and changed it to a hockey skate boot. Same goes for MLX they saw the flaws of Kor (too stiff of an outsole) and made another hockey skate, the main designer on MLX has a speed skating company so they simply use different lasts for hockey skates, 95% of the skate is a speed skate construction.

TBlfan what do you mean by “Adding in flex to the design adds in more revolutionary technology” I’m confused by this.

PBY - 3D shell is probably the one piece flat laminate once it’s modeled over a last it becomes a 3D shell, or any single layer component which was flat when molded over a last becomes a 3D shell.

Cheers

CCM had a "traditional" style skate boot, including a couple Ovechkin models that seemingly did well and they changed everything to develop competing technology. Easton has been dabbling in composite technology for YEARS, despite their very questionably durability over that time. The point is this is where the skate is evolving, advancing.

I never said Kor invented the ice skate, Kor was innovative because they brought a new product to hockey. Back in the day an Aluminum hockey shaft was revolutionary despite the fact that aluminum wasn't invented for hockey.

When you start testing and modifying components to a skate, creating flex zones or adjustable flex options that is revolutionary. For every one person that says the reflex tongue doesn't work I hear 5-6 that say it does work, take that as you will but the fact that it's there and works for some people is an advancement compared to a standard skate tongue.

MLS, I agree with you on fit, no one ever said that the 11K is a bad skate.

[VakarLajos 5]

Most of the guys I talked to that didn't notice much about the TO tongue haven't even tried all three Reflex tongues. Can't fault Bauer for that.

[TBLfan 25]

Most of the guys I talked to that didn't notice much about the TO tongue haven't even tried all three Reflex tongues. Can't fault Bauer for that.

I imagine that proper fit could play a roll also. If the skate is pinched in at the uppers then the tongue may not be able to properly do the job it's meant for.

Also, some people just don't notice as much as others. Some skaters have deeper or less deep knee bends. Guys coming from different brands, often from skates that don't fit the same(specifically in the ankle). etc..

[MLSman 22]

TBL...never said you did. Just don't think a comparison of technology is relevant with retail skates as much as a custom skate. That was my point...not related to anything you said.

Rubo...

I hear you. The marketing verbiage can get very annoying. I can tell you from what I have seen on the One95 what the skate looks like from outer to inner. The Alive material is incredibly thin on the outer...about as thin as the mid tongue insert of the TO. It is a cross-fiber composite material...microlayered. Behind this is the layer of thermoplastic with an adhesive to attach the alive material. Behind the thermoplastic is a very thin layer of foamlike material...followed by a thicker foam material that you feel against the thin layer of the inner boot (hydrophobic liner or grip liner).

The alive material is rigid, but "bends" due to how thin it is. The cross-fiber layering adds a bit of pliability to the composite material...but is so thin that the degree to which it bends to the skate mold is relatively low. Most of the thermoformability of the boot is attributed to the thicker thermoplastic layer behind it and the foam material, so the alive material just follows the form of the inner plastic...thus acting more like resistance to the skate molding process than a contributor. You will notice after baking and wearing that there is a slight return to form...most likely attributed to the composite. You can see it in action with the alive tongue...after a few days the tongue eventually levels itself back to its original form. The thermoplastic layer inhibits that dramatic return to form in the skate...but is noticeable in the upper when relacing the skate after a few days.

So the material is a composite...but is certainly not the only material that makes up the outer layers of the skate...which are mostly thermoplastic to your point. All you need to know about alive can be determined by examining the TO tongue inserts.

[DarkStar50 679]

Rubo, then in your opinion, what is the benefit of Alive?

[MLSman 22]

That was my exact point, that the composite in this case has minimal effect on the whole structure, and that most of the molding and structural effect comes from thermoplastic and foam. It’s very simple, thick composite would just not flex.

Cheers

I agree that a thick composite would not mold or flex with 200 degree heat, but I think that your assessment of its effect is a bit over-emphasized. Both the One95 and the TO are examples of the sum of the parts. It would be difficult to isolate a single component as having more or less value. The combination of the alive material with the thermoplastic and foam give the skates rigidity, flexibility, and performance at less weight as a total package. The effect on the total package is an outer shell that assists in the structure of the entire quarter of the boot. I must say I am a bigger fan of the alive outer than any other material used in the past (leather, nylon, plastic, surlyn, etc). Compared to past technology, more and more materials are being used in combination to increase performance and reduce weight. As we learned with the Easton Synergy and Stealth skates...it is a difficult balance to come up with the right composite materials without affecting other aspects of the total design. They have not been able to find a way to stitch the materials to the composite and have had terrible results with epoxy as an adhesive. It's not as easy as some may think to find the right combination. That wasn't your point...but I think it is more important to look at the combination of the different materials in achieving an end result.

[MLSman 22]

Unfortunately this discussion is getting longer and longer

Quite the contrary...it's these types of discussions that keep me watching and writing on MSH. I wish we would have more intelligent conversations like this...instead of "what skate should I buy?"

[DarkStar50 679]

It’s a functional layer, but the effect on overall structure of a boot maybe 5-10%. Alive is two component laminate, composite and thermoplastic.

Finally let’s look at the new APX skate, I see One95 haters 9 or die hard Vapor fans already complaining that the Alive material will ruin the skate. But let’s examine this further based on my logic. If underneath the Alive it has the same components as X60, then the Alive material will have an overall effect on stiffness maybe at only 5%. They could have reduced the thickness of that thermoplastic back layering on the Alive, so the overall effect will be very minimal, yet weight saving. And I see they made a gap between the third eyelets, so in case the Alive did make it stiffer the gap will help for better forward flex. So my guess would be the differences between APX and X:60 resemble the difference between One90 and one95 where outside shell was changed and nothing else.

Now that I did full circle we comeback to my original theory that the Alive material by itself is not the major component of the skate, so it will not drastically affect the overall structural design, it has an effect, but not as substantial as other internal components.

Cheers.

Then what do you think makes up the 90% that provides structural support and transfers energy? What makes the Alive work in a very different way on the Supreme boot than any previous material? 5-10% seems like an awfully low number. What other internal components are producing the greater effect? How are they doing this that the effect of Alive is 5-10%? I want to get a better understanding of your logic. Thanks.

[DarkStar50 679]

Your input on foams and stiffeners is interesting for someone that confesses to not being a chemist or a structural engineer. I am also neither. We have taken apart skates in the shop also down to the guts of the boot. I have been in St. Jerome and seen XXXs layed out piece by piece to come together in the custom department. I am interested in the benefits of Alive on the boot. It works in ways that I think some may not be giving it enough credit for. As for this perceived belief that there is a difference in stiffness between ONE95, ONE100 and T1, there is not. I have directed this question at Bauer and the answer is there is not any difference in the stiffness between these boots. As for the stiffness underneath our feet, figure skaters have been skating in boots with steel shanks in the soles for decades. They are finally moving away from steel shanks in the sole. They have been there to protect their foot from fracturing on the endless landings they perform in practice and competitions. I also discussed with Bauer the most popular foot bed with NHL players in Bauer skates. The pros prefer the simple soft grey felt footbeds. They want to feel as close to the boot and ice as possible. Interesting considering what we know and use ourselves.

Carry on.

[SolarWind 23]

As for this perceived belief that there is a difference in stiffness between ONE95, ONE100 and T1, there is not. I have directed this question at Bauer and the answer is there is not any difference in the stiffness between these boots.

Very interesting info Dark - thanks for sharing!

Please don't take it the wrong way since I'm not questioning you in any way, but is it safe to assume that the info is unbias? It's just that T1 has much thinner quarters (when comparing with One95/One100) & if one was to squeeze them together there's visibly less force required.

Which is sort of in line with what Rubo was saying above - internal foam used to compliment Alive as far as stiffness is concerned?

I also discussed with Bauer the most popular foot bed with NHL players in Bauer skates. The pros prefer the simple soft grey felt footbeds. They want to feel as close to the boot and ice as possible. Interesting considering what we know and use ourselves.

How do pros deal with issues of "collapsing arch" etc as per numerous superfeet videos?

Also given that Bauer doesn't produce any specialized insoles are they truly unbias?

[DarkStar50 679]

SW, to answer your question directly, the information and questions I ask of Bauer are usually to clear up the inaccuracies I find here on this board from those who have incorrect or questionable information that is taken at face value as fact. I believe in the truthful answers I get from Bauer. I ask the same questions of any of the vendors when I believe it is necessary. Spend enough time in the same industry and there is a mutual respect earned within it.