Talk of Coyotes moving?

[iceNsteel 0]

You'd be facing similar proximity issues with Seattle and Vancouver, as well as competing with area WHL teams.

Seattle may be geographically close to Vancouver, but there's a pretty big difference: you don't need a passport or enhanced driver's license to drive from San Jose to Sacramento. The boarder crossing adds a fairly large element, and living in Seattle most Seattle hockey fans make it up to Vancouver once a year (if that) to see a game. Which comes down to high ticket prices and the hassle of a boarder crossing. Putting a team in Sacramento would harm San Jose's attendance far more than a team in Seattle would harm Vancouver's.

The WHL would probably suffer. The Thunderbirds have trouble selling seats now, with the NHL in town I would imagine that would hurt. Everett is far enough way, and quite a bit different than Seattle, so I don't think it would be as bad for the Silvertips. But there probably would be a drop off with fans opting to drive down to Seattle to see NHL level hockey.

[jrbrown092 0]

I really wish Phoenix would have certainty of keeping the Coyotes. Such a great franchise, but the situation is dire for the team to continue to operate in Phoenix.

I heard from a source that, even if Phoenix was a perennial playoff contender for 20 years, the team would still be at a loss of $9 mil. annually...

[Chadd 916]

I heard from a source that, even if Phoenix was a perennial playoff contender for 20 years, the team would still be at a loss of $9 mil. annually...

That would require a lot of assumptions, there is no way to know that.

[hamstercaster 2]

Will this saga ever end?

If I was a Glendale resident, I'd be pissed to see my municipal government offer 15 to 17 millions a year to the potential ownership group just to keep an NHL franchise. You've got a population of just over 220K stuck with extra taxes that won't really bring anything good for the residents themselves. If Bettman and the Jamison's group are so sure that the Phoenix Coyotes are viable in Glendale, why did they seek money from the city of Glendale? This has failure written all over it. The franchise has been bleeding red since the beginning but still Bettman and others still think that the franchise is viable? How much more money do they need to lose before the brass realizes that they simply screwed up when they moved the Jets to the Arizona desert?

There may be no way to know for sure how much money they will lose for the next 20 years but given the Coyotes past, I think it's still pretty safe to assume that they will keep on losing money for years to come. Add to that the fact that Jamison had a pretty tough time getting investors together to come up with the cash and IMO, this is another recipe for disaster. Down the line you'll have owners who will have lost money, a city council that will have wasted millions to keep a building occupied and finally taxpayers who will have seen their taxes go up for what? so not even 10% of the population can enjoy live NHL hockey? And when I say less then 10%, it's probably less than 5% if we assume that parts of those who attend the games probably come from Phoenix and the vicinity. That's a pretty big burden to put on your tax payers who don't even profit for that money they are forced to pay to keep millionaires afloat.

[Chadd 916]

If the team generates more than 15-17 million per year in revenues for the city, then it's a wash. It's entirely possible that the deal will be revenue neutral or even provide positive cash flow for the city.

[chippa13 1844]

Will this saga ever end?

If I was a Glendale resident, I'd be pissed to see my municipal government offer 15 to 17 millions a year to the potential ownership group just to keep an NHL franchise. You've got a population of just over 220K stuck with extra taxes that won't really bring anything good for the residents themselves. If Bettman and the Jamison's group are so sure that the Phoenix Coyotes are viable in Glendale, why did they seek money from the city of Glendale? This has failure written all over it. The franchise has been bleeding red since the beginning but still Bettman and others still think that the franchise is viable? How much more money do they need to lose before the brass realizes that they simply screwed up when they moved the Jets to the Arizona desert?

There may be no way to know for sure how much money they will lose for the next 20 years but given the Coyotes past, I think it's still pretty safe to assume that they will keep on losing money for years to come. Add to that the fact that Jamison had a pretty tough time getting investors together to come up with the cash and IMO, this is another recipe for disaster. Down the line you'll have owners who will have lost money, a city council that will have wasted millions to keep a building occupied and finally taxpayers who will have seen their taxes go up for what? so not even 10% of the population can enjoy live NHL hockey? And when I say less then 10%, it's probably less than 5% if we assume that parts of those who attend the games probably come from Phoenix and the vicinity. That's a pretty big burden to put on your tax payers who don't even profit for that money they are forced to pay to keep millionaires afloat.

One would be amazed what a little franchise stability can do for a team's profit margin, especially now that the team has shown they can be a legitimate player in the playoffs.

[hamstercaster 2]

Perhaps but I still have my doubts. There are too many professional sports franchises competing for entertainment dollars and something tells me that hockey is not on top of the list.

[hamstercaster 2]

As expected, Goldwater Institute files a law suite.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/goldwater-institute-files-lawsuit-to-block-coyotes-arena-lease-agreement/article4256208/

[jwmann2 0]

I think that Kansas City has plans for a new facility but not built yet? I'm sure I read somewhere that someone wanted a new facility to bring in an NBA team and that perhaps if they could have an NHL team too it would be easier to justify a new building?

The Sprint Center is already standing in Kansas City and is one of the busiest arenas in the United States. When the NHL held an exhibition in Kansas City, there was not that grea of a turnout so I doubt Kansas City is an option. I think Seattle, Quebec and Markham (Toronto) are the most likely landing spots of the Coyotes, Islanders or Devils.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

Looks like a done deal. http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410428

The city council of Glendale, Arizona has approved a reconfigured 20-year, $320 million lease package that could allow former San Jose Sharks executive Greg Jamison to buy the Phoenix Coyotes.

The deal passed by a vote of 4-2 and is conditional on the purchase of the Coyotes being completed by January 31, 2013.

The package will reportedly pay Jamison approximately $15 million annually to help run the Jobing.com Arena in Glendale.

I'm personally in agreement with one of the comments:

What Municipality out there has $15 million to give to an owner on an annual basis to basically keep things afloat? That's incredible and insane at the same time. Move the team already.

But hey, happy for the Coyotes fans.

[pizzakid13 5]

so the taxpayers will pay this guy 15 million a year to run the arena and keep all the cash? nice job glendale.

[wrangler 157]

Interesting timing, requiring a deal by the end of January. I'd be reluctant to buy a team that's not playing, and no guarantee what the attendance will be after a lockout, for the same price I may have offered when the NHL was actually operating.

[Chadd 916]

so the taxpayers will pay this guy 15 million a year to run the arena and keep all the cash? nice job glendale.

In most cases there is a ticket tax as well as other tax revenue for the local government. If the arena is busy, the local government will still make more than they pay out.

Interesting timing, requiring a deal by the end of January. I'd be reluctant to buy a team that's not playing, and no guarantee what the attendance will be after a lockout, for the same price I may have offered when the NHL was actually operating.

He's going to make money operating the arena as long as there is no hockey. It's then up to him to bring the fans back. With more revenue sharing it should not be as difficult for the team to make money moving forward.

[pizzakid13 5]

maybe, but usually, these deals dont really work out for the towns do they? these owners sell the idea of all this revenue for the community to get their free arenas and then basically ride away with all the cash. i just read an article the other day about the florida panthers arena deal.

[Chadd 916]

Every situation is different, without specific details it's hard to pin down any particular situation. Most publicly -owned arenas have a management company handling the day to day operations and booking dates. The company can get a fixed annual fee or paid via a ticket surcharge, every situation is a little different.

[Thinkingjack 51]

Speaking as someone from arizona, a former coyotes employee and former resident of the area the arena is in.

a. stability is what drives things and the coyotes have never had a stable owner since 1999. Jerry moyes was proven to have been taking money from the team to pump it into his dying trucking company called swift.

b. jerry moyes kept buying out other partial owners to try and sell the team under the table and when he wasnt allowed he filed bankruptcy to save his arse and bailed just like the "great" coach bailed on the team.

c. the team has generated a lot of buzz in the last two years. Attendance has gone up, the playoffs were sold out, the arena was packed, and the entire area was jam packed.

d. i have friends working in the stares up against the arena in westgate and they say that revenue and foot traffic has gone down so hard from not having hockey and the foot traffic it generates that sales are down very bad. Even the Tanger Outlet Mall on black friday some stores reported projected losses low on over 10grand.

this is without hockey!

You'd be surprised how most people in glendale dont care about the tax hike.

heres a few things that will be going up in price that people complained at the council meeting a lot of us attended.

1. Pools will go up by 1 dollar. So you no longer will pay 2.50 per person to get into a public pool. Also the concern by two citizens is that this will lead to gang violence. (seriously that was ranted on for 10 minutes.)

2. Glendale and the Coyotes both agreed to do their best and guaranteed that this would cause no job losses for cops, no libraries will shut down, no public places for kids and adults alike will shut down.

3. Some guy took the mic and was visiting from canada and called the coyotes and glendale a dead duck facility and then quacked for 2 full minutes until he was removed from the stand. (hilarious)

4. the biggest complaint was from Ken Jones, a 78 year old living off medicare (tax payer money) and subsidised living and admitted to be on welfare at one point calling all hockey fans traveling outside of glendale to see the games free loaders and we dont think of the children. When i think even Sean in here can attest with me that going to a coyotes game isnt just ticket money, theres restaurant meal money, and other random crap we do before and after games. in the stores at westgate.

5. another major complaint was that glendale sold the westgate management of the property to a new york company instead of using a local company. That's the city mistake not the coyotes.

6. and of course our favorite in the meeting was a guy who came in and not just called coyotes fans freeloaders but also racist towards glendale residents after he stated he lived in the richer part of the glendale community district and said he felt alienated like the black power movement in the 60s and was immediately removed from the stand.

7. the 320 million deal, is under an agreement that the coyotes will in turn once operational during the season when its back will begin pumping money into the community evne though they have been doing that since arriving in arizona. Theres a contract they have up to open a new hockey rink out in the goodyear area once its cleared so those of us who live out west (i no longer) will be able to play near home instead of drive up to an hour to the rink in peoria and break their ankles from bad ice.

8. the mayor of glendale who signed this deal to bring the team and the arena now wants out of it so she has begun to act like a teenage girl at one point saying "why, why why why why" to the coyotes buyer. She kept berating him why had the deal not been finished and he put her in her spot. "because everytime we get a deal package going, you ask us to rewrite it so please make up your mind" thats when she reached the january deadline even though he asked for sooner.

9. The Pisswater Insitute is funded by the AZ Cardinals and Diamondbacks, the Diamondbacks owner and his wife have stated that this state could use one less sport team so people focus on them, well his wife is the top head cheese in the goldwater institute. the cardinals arrived to glendale after the coyotes and have been fighting with the team for parking space. literally parking space because the coyotes do not charge and the cardinals do not like that they can park in the coyotes areas for free and cannot control it, and other issues. The goldwater isntitue is un happy that they cannot control something as they want and get their cut. When the diamondbacks ripped out the city of phoenix for more money a few years ago, and needed money from the city which has caused the city of phoenix itself to put a freeze in hiring more police officers for 10 years and other freezes, who didnt step in? the goldwater insitute, IN FACT, Goldwater Institue was sitting alongside their bosses fighting against the city of phoenix. When the Cardinals built their stadium and later was found out that they did it without permission from the land owners (UoP) who was there defending them saying its good for the community since a online college doesnt need land? Gold water institute.

Taxpayer protectors? i highly challenge that.

The thing that really hinders hockey here was the lack of coverage, the coyotes games arent broadcast, they get nothing in the news, the local newspaper has admitted to actually not want to report on hockey even in the playoff run.Luckily once Mike Nealy stepped in that began to change, especially with marketing which the coyotes had NONE in the entire time they were here. Now they have their logo and mottos on buses, billboards, electronic billboards, TV commercials, radio commercials on every channel. it's amazing and that has certainly helped.

[Jason Harris 31]

maybe, but usually, these deals dont really work out for the towns do they? these owners sell the idea of all this revenue for the community to get their free arenas and then basically ride away with all the cash. i just read an article the other day about the florida panthers arena deal.

I'm not sure if this was referring only to baseball (and I tend to doubt that it was), but about ten years ago I read that every city that hat built a new arena saw sales tax receipts go up except Detroit, who opened Comerica Park when the Tigers were one loss away from tying the modern record for worst of all time. The presumption was the city likely would have shown improved receipts if the team hadn't been so inept.

Obviously, an important question is whether the kick was short-lived, and I don't know that answer, but it's probably somewhat longer lasting because the arenas tend to lead toward regeneration of the areas they go into.

[pizzakid13 5]

I lived in Phoenix from 01-06 and the games are always on. What do you mean "not broadcasted?"

[Chadd 916]

I'm not sure if this was referring only to baseball (and I tend to doubt that it was), but about ten years ago I read that every city that hat built a new arena saw sales tax receipts go up except Detroit, who opened Comerica Park when the Tigers were one loss away from tying the modern record for worst of all time. The presumption was the city likely would have shown improved receipts if the team hadn't been so inept.

Obviously, an important question is whether the kick was short-lived, and I don't know that answer, but it's probably somewhat longer lasting because the arenas tend to lead toward regeneration of the areas they go into.

The Mayor in Edmonton made a great point about numbers like that not too long ago. It was something to the effect of: "A new building doesn't increase fan spending, it simply moves it from one area to another."

[JR Boucicaut 3799]

I'm not sure if this was referring only to baseball (and I tend to doubt that it was), but about ten years ago I read that every city that hat built a new arena saw sales tax receipts go up except Detroit, who opened Comerica Park when the Tigers were one loss away from tying the modern record for worst of all time. The presumption was the city likely would have shown improved receipts if the team hadn't been so inept.

They should check now. The building of Comerica and Ford Field in that area of downtown Detroit has revitalized that whole neighborhood.

Ilitch has bought land on the other side of I-75, with the plan of moving the Red Wings there.

[Jason Harris 31]

The Mayor in Edmonton made a great point about numbers like that not too long ago. It was something to the effect of: "A new building doesn't increase fan spending, it simply moves it from one area to another."

I suppose that is literally true, but from the city's perspective, they don't mind if they are taking spending away from the suburbs and putting into the city proper.

[Chadd 916]

I suppose that is literally true, but from the city's perspective, they don't mind if they are taking spending away from the suburbs and putting into the city proper.

I think in the case of Edmonton, both locations were within the city limits. Obviously, that isn't always the case.

[Thinkingjack 51]

I lived in Phoenix from 01-06 and the games are always on. What do you mean "not broadcasted?"

on what channel? because after their contract with az tv ended in 05-06 it ran for half a season in negotiations in 06-07 and then the coyotes ended without tv coverage unless you had FSNAZ which requires cable and the extra package to get their games

[Thinkingjack 51]

A stipulation of the agreement requires the team to be renamed "Arizona Coyotes."

thats been in the works for a few years since they moved to Glendale but the coyotes wouldnt budge, now they are, back then glendale wanted them to be named Glendale Coyotes which made no sense, Arizona Coyotes is better though

[Chadd 916]

on what channel? because after their contract with az tv ended in 05-06 it ran for half a season in negotiations in 06-07 and then the coyotes ended without tv coverage unless you had FSNAZ which requires cable and the extra package to get their games

That's no different than most other NHL, NBA or even MLB teams anymore. Very few teams have every game broadcast on free TV.