Is So-And-So A Hall Of Famer? The Water Cooler Thread

[badger_14 601]

1 hour ago, chippa13 said:

I'm not sure I would call Fleury a definite. He doesn't have any individual hardware and his stats were good but not exceptional. Another candidate for the Hall of Very Good.

One could make the similar argument for him that one makes for Lindros (career shortened and stymied by injuries) - his stats would've been better had he not been dealing with the fallout from his abuse.  (and playing for as long as he did at the level he did while dealing with said fallout is pretty damn impressive.)

[chippa13 1844]

I don't think they compare. Lindros was absolutely dominant for a while in the NHL. While Fleury was very good and fun to watch, I don't think he was ever that guy.

[flip12 714]

Mogilny will go in eventually...

Triple Gold Club, first defection from the Soviet Union, two-time 2nd All-Star Team (ok, not 1st team, but still), 6 All-Star Games, tied for league lead in goals once and amongst the top a couple of other times, would have easily been a 500+ goal scorer if not for injuries and lockouts (other would-have-been 500-goal clubbers include Fedorov and Bure), Lady Bing (ok, not the greatest individual hardware but it still counts as hardware), 1000 points at better than 1-ppg.

A lot of people don't seem to like him, but he'll get in. Maybe there's resentment because he's part of that class of "soft" Soviets. I can only imagine what that transition was like though. Coming to a vicious league where you're a target for both the fans and opponents in a culture almost completely foreign to anything you've ever known. Members of the Election Committee have a better idea what that was like.

[chippa13 1844]

I like Mogilny just fine but I think he is another member of the Hall of Very Good. 

[Kgbeast 195]

Are there any Hall-of-Famers that were physically abusive to officials?

[Neal 41]

@kgbeast Look up the Richard riots in Montreal,  The Rocket had a number of serious run ins with the officials.

[flip12 714]

On 12/9/2016 at 11:46 AM, chippa13 said:

I like Mogilny just fine but I think he is another member of the Hall of Very Good. 

His numbers and accolades compare favorably to others that are in there, such as Pat Lafontaine. I think your standards are actually higher than the HHOF. I was thinking the same thing in the discussion of Gartner earlier in this thread.

On 12/11/2016 at 9:09 PM, Kgbeast said:

Are there any Hall-of-Famers that were physically abusive to officials?

He did do that a couple of times...a bit of a temper on Mogo.

If this blog is accurate, we can add Jack Adams, Bernie Geoffrion, and Jaromir Jagr (will be first ballot HOFer), to go along with Richard.

[Kgbeast 195]

19 hours ago, flip12 said:

His numbers and accolades compare favorably to others that are in there, such as Pat Lafontaine. I think your standards are actually higher than the HHOF. I was thinking the same thing in the discussion of Gartner earlier in this thread.

He did do that a couple of times...a bit of a temper on Mogo.

If this blog is accurate, we can add Jack Adams, Bernie Geoffrion, and Jaromir Jagr (will be first ballot HOFer), to go along with Richard.

Nice blog. Although I am not saying that checking a ref immediately disqualifies one from ever becoming hall-of-famer, I just think it should be a criteria for it. Like, if you done it once when you were a teenager and it did not result in an injury, you still have a chance. If you done it being a grown ass man and done it more than once, you should be basically, cut off.

[flip12 714]

7 minutes ago, Kgbeast said:

Nice blog. Although I am not saying that checking a ref immediately disqualifies one from ever becoming hall-of-famer, I just think it should be a criteria for it. Like, if you done it once when you were a teenager and it did not result in an injury, you still have a chance. If you done it being a grown ass man and done it more than once, you should be basically, cut off.

I see where you're going with it. It reminds me of the standards often applied to political office: if you ever stole a piece of candy, that's all the campaign will be about ever after your criminality has been established by the opposition. In Mogo's case, it didn't really happen again after he got a little older, although he was already in his 20's in the slapping incident. I'd agree if it were a case of repeated abuse of official, but this is hockey, and it's a player's job to push themselves to the limit; sometimes that limit gets crossed a wee bit. I'd imagine there was some extra frustration from those Europeans who felt like they were targeted and not served sufficient justice--I'm thinking of Jagr's incident as well. Just like Price taking 3-consecutive shots to the back of a player's head because of his emotions and history with injury: it's hockey and ugly stuff involving stars sometimes happens. Uglier stuff has happened involving HOFers, and while that's a definite strike against Mogilny, so is his aloofness. Even with his strikes considered, I think he's a definite in. Especially looking at the standards applied to players from his generation. They're making him wait, but he'll be in at the end of the day because his career merits it.

[Kgbeast 195]

1 hour ago, flip12 said:

I see where you're going with it. It reminds me of the standards often applied to political office: if you ever stole a piece of candy, that's all the campaign will be about ever after your criminality has been established by the opposition. In Mogo's case, it didn't really happen again after he got a little older, although he was already in his 20's in the slapping incident. I'd agree if it were a case of repeated abuse of official, but this is hockey, and it's a player's job to push themselves to the limit; sometimes that limit gets crossed a wee bit. I'd imagine there was some extra frustration from those Europeans who felt like they were targeted and not served sufficient justice--I'm thinking of Jagr's incident as well. Just like Price taking 3-consecutive shots to the back of a player's head because of his emotions and history with injury: it's hockey and ugly stuff involving stars sometimes happens. Uglier stuff has happened involving HOFers, and while that's a definite strike against Mogilny, so is his aloofness. Even with his strikes considered, I think he's a definite in. Especially looking at the standards applied to players from his generation. They're making him wait, but he'll be in at the end of the day because his career merits it.

Agree with all this. My thing is more about a role model worthiness. HHOF is a group of role models regardless if we like it or not, things like short temper, sense of entitlement, and aloofness is really a concern. People like Gordy Howe, gotten in plenty of fights, but not for the lack of temper but for what the game of hockey is. Then obviously guys like Gretzky that did not partake in this by contributed to the hockey in exceptional skill and ability to read the game. I would like to see Datsyuk in HHOF one day. He is a good example to follow and his achievements in game of hockey are well above exceeding expectations.

[chippa13 1844]

Datsyuk will absolutely be in, and probably on his first ballot. As for the "role model" criteria, I don't think that matters one bit. If it did then none of the mid-70s Flyers would be in.

[Kgbeast 195]

On 12/16/2016 at 8:50 AM, chippa13 said:

Datsyuk will absolutely be in, and probably on his first ballot. As for the "role model" criteria, I don't think that matters one bit. If it did then none of the mid-70s Flyers would be in.

I think role model criteria did not matter back 20 + years ago, but I think it does now or at least it is given a thought this days. 70's Flyers IMO, is an unfortunate part of hockey history when physicaly abusive dominance was used to equal skill and sportsmanship. Back in 70's hockey was treated somewhat like boxing. I am glad that Hockey has outgrown it. Imagine Gaudreau against 70's Flyers... He would have ended up in a hospital for a month.

[Stewie 721]

Datsyuk is in, and that's even before factoring in any role model stuff, his play on the ice and being one of the top two way players in the NHL for over 10 years is enough, let alone his one man highlight reel plays

[RadioGaGa 162]

On 12/16/2016 at 11:50 AM, chippa13 said:

Datsyuk will absolutely be in, and probably on his first ballot. As for the "role model" criteria, I don't think that matters one bit. If it did then none of the mid-70s Flyers would be in.

Not hockey, but when they talk about role model being a HOF consideration I always loved a quote I heard about Ty Cobb. It went something like: 'Anyone who played against him hated him, most of the people who played with him hated him, but when it came time to vote for the HOF they all voted for him"

[IPv6Freely 2092]

Iginla? 

[yrhmblnr8r 69]

4 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

Iginla? 

In

[flip12 714]

On 3/8/2017 at 5:55 PM, IPv6Freely said:

Iginla? 

Excess of 600 goals alone = automatic.

[MyBoxersSayJoe 133]

Fresh on the heals of his retirement: Patrik Elias?

Four-time All-Star
408 goals, 617 assists for 1,025 points in 1,240 games (.83 ppg over 18 seasons)
2 Stanley Cups

[chippa13 1844]

Maybe on a weak ballot year.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

Yea I'd say eventually but not any time soon.