Esoteric Warrior Widow/DT question re:blade weight

[smcgreg 81]

I've read through much of the DT catalogue thread and don't think I saw an answer to this, so, here goes.

As the title states, this is a bit esoteric, it's a bit long winded, but here is my problem: I use Warrior Widow intermediate sticks. I primarily use the Kovalchuk and Zetterberg. I have gone through an extensive process to find the sticks I like and between these two, I really like the Zetterberg curve. BUT... it is really blade light. Now if you lift both stick they are both very light sticks being they were top of the line, intermediate sticks. But even still, when I use them, there is a distinct difference in the weight of the blades, again, the Zetterberg being lighter. At first I thought this was an advantage, but I have come to realize that there are a lot of circumstances (e.g face offs, stick on stick puck battles, etc) where a heavier blade may be better. I realized it was a serious problem today while playing drop in with some A level players. When these guys pass the puck, it's a friggin lazer. I have played with them before and have had trouble handling passes. Today I was using the Zetterberg and it was ridiculous. I couldn't catch a friggin cold let alone on the tape pass. So, midgame, I switched to the Kovalchuk. Voila... it was like night and day. I was catching the passes (or at least stopping them) and handling the puck much better.

So, here is my dilemma, as I said, I prefer the Zetterberg, but I am realizing the light blade weight is probably hurting me more than helping, but I don't want to use the Kovalchuk regularly. Looking at the new DT literature, they are advertising the blades are even lighter. So, would a DT3 in Zetterberg be comparable than a DT1 in Kovalchuk? or at least heavier (in the blade) than a DT1 Zetterberg?

The other part of this is that I really like the way the Zetterberg Widow pops, so, I don't want to go to a heavier duty stick like the ST, so, I guess this is primarily a question about the LTs.... I think.

Of course, it would be nice if Miseaujeu sees this and chimes in, but any educated opinions would be appreciated.

[shotty 7]

if your only problem with the original stick is receiving hard passes from elite players you should probably ask yourself: how often am I playing with these guys and is it worth the trouble of going through all this?

i've been playing hockey my entire life and i can tell you one thing for sure: the best way to raise your game is by adjusting your strategy or improving your skills. buying a new stick with a heavier blade so that you can receive hard passes from players is what i would call a band-aid. (the real issue is how you're receiving the passes, not that your blade can't handle them)

[Souldriver 64]

What the above said plus a couple of other things.

The weight difference between curves is very little nd really in the end that's not going to make the difference between all.of this. Plus why would a heavier blade be desirable in any of those positions you mentioned? To slow your stick down on faceoffs and in the corners? I know what you're thinking but if it was heavier they will still be hitting it with the same force and it would feel even heavier when it gets leveraged on your hands. I don't know your age/playstyle/tendacies so I can't say it's that you need to grow and be stronger or change something but there is that also.

With receiving passes there may be something different you're doing with each curve that you're not noticing. Many people of all ages and skill levels use the w88 zetterberg/p88 kane curve and don't have trouble passes. The only thing I can think of is the blade has been beaten on one and it's not responding totally right. Blade durability was an issue on the widows but has been handily dealt with in the dt1 sticks and new lt/st series as well.

Comparing blades of a dt3 setter and a dt1 koval is a bad one, blades are way different as well other things in the stick not to mention the curve itself.

My dt1 pops just as much if not more than.my widow, it also still loads very easily. People are saying the new lt is even a little better. I qouldnt say the st is necissarly a heavy duty stick but it is high fused so the kick point is a little higher but it's meant to take the stress of higher powered shots without torqueing out and going off target.

[smcgreg 81]

if your only problem with the original stick is receiving hard passes from elite players you should probably ask yourself: how often am I playing with these guys and is it worth the trouble of going through all this?

i've been playing hockey my entire life and i can tell you one thing for sure: the best way to raise your game is by adjusting your strategy or improving your skills. buying a new stick with a heavier blade so that you can receive hard passes from players is what i would call a band-aid. (the real issue is how you're receiving the passes, not that your blade can't handle them)

Well, obviously, I can get better. duh, ... I can get A LOT better.

Seriously though, that was just another example. I alluded to some others such as the face offs and in particular, stick on stick "battles". Not really battles, but you probably know what I mean.

That being said, it was rather striking the difference between the two sticks receiving the passes. I play with them once a week, sometimes two, depending. I will never be able to really play with them (I'm 47 after all), but anything that helps is a good thing.

To your point though, I skate 8 times per week and practice every day if not on the ice, off. I'm doing about everything humanly possible for an adult with a job to raise my game.

Thanks for your input, now back to the stick question......

[smcgreg 81]

What the above said plus a couple of other things.

The weight difference between curves is very little nd really in the end that's not going to make the difference between all.of this. Plus why would a heavier blade be desirable in any of those positions you mentioned? To slow your stick down on faceoffs and in the corners? I know what you're thinking but if it was heavier they will still be hitting it with the same force and it would feel even heavier when it gets leveraged on your hands. I don't know your age/playstyle/tendacies so I can't say it's that you need to grow and be stronger or change something but there is that also.

With receiving passes there may be something different you're doing with each curve that you're not noticing. Many people of all ages and skill levels use the w88 zetterberg/p88 kane curve and don't have trouble passes. The only thing I can think of is the blade has been beaten on one and it's not responding totally right. Blade durability was an issue on the widows but has been handily dealt with in the dt1 sticks and new lt/st series as well.

Comparing blades of a dt3 setter and a dt1 koval is a bad one, blades are way different as well other things in the stick not to mention the curve itself.

My dt1 pops just as much if not more than.my widow, it also still loads very easily. People are saying the new lt is even a little better. I qouldnt say the st is necissarly a heavy duty stick but it is high fused so the kick point is a little higher but it's meant to take the stress of higher powered shots without torqueing out and going off target.

Ok, maybe I should have left out all the background. I thought it might help, but evidently not, it's just a distraction.

As I said to Shotty, I play/practice a fair bit for an old guy with a job. As I also said in my post, I like the Zetterberg, but it is very obvious to me that the blade light aspect of it affects me negatively in lots of circumstances. Why that is, it's hard to say, but it just is. The weight differences between the two are miniscule, but I play enough to notice them discernibly.

I appreciate the feedback, but the question at hand was the question at hand. Again, I probably should have left out the background, but I figured somebody would ask anyway, why I would want a heavier stick. On that note, again, the Widow Kovalchuk is still pretty friggin light as it's an intermediate. So, it's not like I'm looking for a tank. There are lots of other sticks I wouldn't even consider because they're too heavy. Just trying to split hairs here.

Granted, in my defense, from reading your posts/questions on the DT thread, it's not like I'm the only one that splits hairs. You ask some pretty nit picky questions too ;)

[Stewie 721]

i dont think your issue stems from weight of the blade. perhaps its the deeper pocket or less openness on the kovy thats helping you to catch passes better, or maybe a difference in rocker

[Chadd 916]

A couple grams difference in the blade isn't going to make a difference when it comes to catching a pass. You may now have a mental block regarding it, but the physics just don't work out that way.

[Souldriver 64]

A couple grams difference in the blade isn't going to make a difference when it comes to catching a pass. You may now have a mental block regarding it, but the physics just don't work out that way.

i dont think your issue stems from weight of the blade. perhaps its the deeper pocket or less openness on the kovy thats helping you to catch passes better, or maybe a difference in rocker

these are kind of what i was getting at. even things such as just a half inch of stick length can make everything seem way different but it is amazing what some humans can pick up. but in the end its mental and once the mental kicks in it can lead to other things as well. thinking, and over thinking about what youre doing on the ice as well as tensing up. maybe even things such as you may subconsciously be gripping the stick too hard when a pass comes bc youre afraid of it pinging off.

[Stewie 721]

also, looking at the patterns on the warrior site, it appears as though the kovy is shorter than the Zberg, so i am not exactly sure how its blade could be that much heavier to be noticeable.

[smcgreg 81]

also, looking at the patterns on the warrior site, it appears as though the kovy is shorter than the Zberg, so i am not exactly sure how its blade could be that much heavier to be noticeable.

Maybe I'm really friggin weak? ;)

A couple grams difference in the blade isn't going to make a difference when it comes to catching a pass. You may now have a mental block regarding it, but the physics just don't work out that way.

Hmm.. equations please.

[Stewie 721]

well, one of the things I have been looking into for my game is the rocker. I have been using the p88 style blades since i started regular skating again a few years back, and I have felt that, at the beginning, it had messed with my pass catching a bit, and just overall isnt the right pattern for me. Going from strictly a lie perspective, it seemed to fit my game number wise, but i dont think I have enought blade contact on the ice. I have since made an adjustment to my pass catching where it isnt as much an issue, but my new stick has a different pattern i am working with, so we will see how that goes.

I dont know enough about the kovy, but maybe thats not as much of an issue.

[smcgreg 81]

well, one of the things I have been looking into for my game is the rocker. I have been using the p88 style blades since i started regular skating again a few years back, and I have felt that, at the beginning, it had messed with my pass catching a bit, and just overall isnt the right pattern for me. Going from strictly a lie perspective, it seemed to fit my game number wise, but i dont think I have enought blade contact on the ice. I have since made an adjustment to my pass catching where it isnt as much an issue, but my new stick has a different pattern i am working with, so we will see how that goes.

I dont know enough about the kovy, but maybe thats not as much of an issue.

Well, actually, I went through the rocker process last year. I alluded to that in my original post. Originally, I liked the way the Kovy shot, but the lack of a rocker really made me feel hamstrung catching passes and stick handling. That prompted a move (with some help from others in this thread) to the Zetterberg. As I say, I like the way the Zetterberg shoots and lies, but.... dare I say, .... the lighter blade seems too light ;) The difference is clearly evident when stickhandling quickly, in that I can do it more quickly and easily with the Zetterberg. yada yada yada, which takes me back to my original point.

these are kind of what i was getting at. even things such as just a half inch of stick length can make everything seem way different but it is amazing what some humans can pick up. but in the end its mental and once the mental kicks in it can lead to other things as well. thinking, and over thinking about what youre doing on the ice as well as tensing up. maybe even things such as you may subconsciously be gripping the stick too hard when a pass comes bc youre afraid of it pinging off.

Ok, I appreciate everyone providing feedback on this. I'm a pretty logical person and I would normally think the weight (mass actually) differences would be inconsequential, but unfortunately, you aren't going to be able to convince me since I've noticed the difference for a while. It's rather difficult to quantify objectively though, obviously, on a one piece stick. Whether the heavier/lighter blades affect me the way I believe they are, or not, is another matter.

[Chadd 916]

Ok, I appreciate everyone providing feedback on this. I'm a pretty logical person and I would normally think the weight (mass actually) differences would be inconsequential, but unfortunately, you aren't going to be able to convince me since I've noticed the difference for a while. It's rather difficult to quantify objectively though, obviously, on a one piece stick. Whether the heavier/lighter blades affect me the way I believe they are, or not, is another matter.

Once something gets in your head, it's hard to see it any other way. If you are curious, balance the sticks on a straight edge and see how far apart the balance points actually are. It shouldn't be more than 1/4" at most.

[Souldriver 64]

...Ok, I appreciate everyone providing feedback on this. I'm a pretty logical person and I would normally think the weight (mass actually) differences would be inconsequential, but unfortunately, you aren't going to be able to convince me since I've noticed the difference for a while. It's rather difficult to quantify objectively though, obviously, on a one piece stick. Whether the heavier/lighter blades affect me the way I believe they are, or not, is another matter.

I do a lot of guitar work on the side and some for the more fickle jazz group of guitarists. believe it or not when the action (height the string is away from the frets/fingerboard) is off by fractions of a fraction of an inch some players feel it, a swipe or two with the right file, or lowering the strings a hair will make all the difference to them. so i do believe you when you say you feel it.

but also too when you play a guitar the frets get worn and the action changes, when this happens (barring any other problems) those same fickle players usually dont usually care or even notice or play any better/worse/different, the change is gradual and they naturally get used it and there is less mental trickery. But changing curves on the fly isnt. maybe try to using the zetter exclusively for a while and really get used to its nuances.

[smcgreg 81]

Once something gets in your head, it's hard to see it any other way. If you are curious, balance the sticks on a straight edge and see how far apart the balance points actually are. It shouldn't be more than 1/4" at most.

As I was driving home tonight, I actually thought of the same thing. I'll report back with confirmation/refutation afterward. Thanks for the suggestion.

[smcgreg 81]

I do a lot of guitar work on the side and some for the more fickle jazz group of guitarists. believe it or not when the action (height the string is away from the frets/fingerboard) is off by fractions of a fraction of an inch some players feel it, a swipe or two with the right file, or lowering the strings a hair will make all the difference to them. so i do believe you when you say you feel it.

but also too when you play a guitar the frets get worn and the action changes, when this happens (barring any other problems) those same fickle players usually dont usually care or even notice or play any better/worse/different, the change is gradual and they naturally get used it and there is less mental trickery. But changing curves on the fly isnt. maybe try to using the zetter exclusively for a while and really get used to its nuances.

I actually was a working musician (guitarist) for about a decade (played for 20 years), so, I know of what you speak. Yes, when you spend several hours a day practicing scales over and over, you notice the fractional differences in action height, string thickness among all the other intangible (for non players) nuances between guitars/setups. Along those lines, I don't spend hours with the stick each day, but I do stickhandle pretty much everyday with focused effort on improvement, aside from playing. In fact, I don't like using a stickhandling ball because it's not close enough to a puck and so have some pretty creative (if I do say so myself) things set up for stickhandling practice. This is probably why I have a pretty good sense of the nuances of the sticks, but unfortunately, my age and ability level prevent me from demonstrating them on par with the A players. Alas, Time's arrow...........

As far as playing with the Zetter vs the Kovy, I already did it. I used the Kovy exclusively for a few months, but as I said before, didn't like the rocker, so, moved to the Zetter. It really didn't take me long to really like the Zetter. I hadn't used the Kovy much for a while, but I always have it on the bench as a back up. A few weeks ago, I grabbed it by mistake and noticed some of the differences I have been mentioning. But again, I didn't like it because of the rocker. I mIssed a couple sweet passes (not with the A guys) in games because I was used to the Zetter rocker and just missed em. I've been mixing it in each game since to see if the difference is "real" (at least in my head) and it seems to be. So, that's why I'm looking for a slightly heavier Zetter, because I like the curve and rocker, but feel I need a bit more blade weight. Maybe it's all in my head, but that's the way it is.

I honestly, really do appreciate the feedback from you guys. Thanks

[Cosmic 178]

I actually was a working musician (guitarist) for about a decade (played for 20 years), so, I know of what you speak. Yes, when you spend several hours a day practicing scales over and over, you notice the fractional differences in action height, string thickness among all the other intangible (for non players) nuances between guitars/setups. Along those lines, I don't spend hours with the stick each day, but I do stickhandle pretty much everyday with focused effort on improvement, aside from playing. In fact, I don't like using a stickhandling ball because it's not close enough to a puck and so have some pretty creative (if I do say so myself) things set up for stickhandling practice. This is probably why I have a pretty good sense of the nuances of the sticks, but unfortunately, my age and ability level prevent me from demonstrating them on par with the A players. Alas, Time's arrow...........

As far as playing with the Zetter vs the Kovy, I already did it. I used the Kovy exclusively for a few months, but as I said before, didn't like the rocker, so, moved to the Zetter. It really didn't take me long to really like the Zetter. I hadn't used the Kovy much for a while, but I always have it on the bench as a back up. A few weeks ago, I grabbed it by mistake and noticed some of the differences I have been mentioning. But again, I didn't like it because of the rocker. I mIssed a couple sweet passes (not with the A guys) in games because I was used to the Zetter rocker and just missed em. I've been mixing it in each game since to see if the difference is "real" (at least in my head) and it seems to be. So, that's why I'm looking for a slightly heavier Zetter, because I like the curve and rocker, but feel I need a bit more blade weight. Maybe it's all in my head, but that's the way it is.

I honestly, really do appreciate the feedback from you guys. Thanks

If you tape the heck out of the blade, as in moving down the blade ever so slightly with each twist of the tape, then you will add significant weight. Also, you will add some cushion to deaden the passes.

[Cavs019 710]

Pass catching ability between blades for me has always been more of a lie/rocker difference issue than anything else. With my P91, I make sure I keep my heel down to avoid the puck slipping underneath, and play with a slightly shorter stick when I'm using a higher lie blade. Its less about weight and more about adapting to the mechanics of what you're using. Additional weight shouldn't be required to deaden the puck or offset something that softening up your hands can fix. That said, you will have issues catching passes if the blade lie/rocker isn't compatible with your posture/stride.

[Chadd 916]

Pass catching ability between blades for me has always been more of a lie/rocker difference issue than anything else. With my P91, I make sure I keep my heel down to avoid the puck slipping underneath, and play with a slightly shorter stick when I'm using a higher lie blade. Its less about weight and more about adapting to the mechanics of what you're using. Additional weight shouldn't be required to deaden the puck or offset something that softening up your hands can fix. That said, you will have issues catching passes if the blade lie/rocker isn't compatible with your posture/stride.

I would agree with that.

[smcgreg 81]

Once something gets in your head, it's hard to see it any other way. If you are curious, balance the sticks on a straight edge and see how far apart the balance points actually are. It shouldn't be more than 1/4" at most.

Hmm... so, measuring from the butt end of the shaft, it's a 1 in difference. Granted, they are not cut exactly the same length, with the Zetterberg ~ 1/8 longer. I'm trying to determine if that adds or subtracts from the 1 in difference. Regardless, it's certainly more than 1/4 in.

[smcgreg 81]

What the above said plus a couple of other things.

The weight difference between curves is very little nd really in the end that's not going to make the difference between all.of this. Plus why would a heavier blade be desirable in any of those positions you mentioned? To slow your stick down on faceoffs and in the corners? I know what you're thinking but if it was heavier they will still be hitting it with the same force and it would feel even heavier when it gets leveraged on your hands. I don't know your age/playstyle/tendacies so I can't say it's that you need to grow and be stronger or change something but there is that also.

With receiving passes there may be something different you're doing with each curve that you're not noticing. Many people of all ages and skill levels use the w88 zetterberg/p88 kane curve and don't have trouble passes. The only thing I can think of is the blade has been beaten on one and it's not responding totally right. Blade durability was an issue on the widows but has been handily dealt with in the dt1 sticks and new lt/st series as well.

Comparing blades of a dt3 setter and a dt1 koval is a bad one, blades are way different as well other things in the stick not to mention the curve itself.

My dt1 pops just as much if not more than.my widow, it also still loads very easily. People are saying the new lt is even a little better. I qouldnt say the st is necissarly a heavy duty stick but it is high fused so the kick point is a little higher but it's meant to take the stress of higher powered shots without torqueing out and going off target.

As I noted in response to Chadd, the blade heavy difference is real based on balance point comparison. It was real to me all along. That being said, I played drop in with a good group on Fri again after doing some individual work at a sticks and pucks and I need to give your points (and the others) more credence. Two things...first, I've probably been playing too many games at lower levels the last couple months and my pass catching got lazy. Second, the real lazer passes I was having trouble with on Thur were coming from one guy who I expect to send them to me like rockets. So, I think that was getting in my head and making me tense up. The heavier blade was helping me "knock them down" as opposed to "catching them". After focusing on it at the sticks and pucks, then in the A level drop in on Fri, there wasn't an issue. I used the Zetterberg and it was fine. I'll be playing with the other group again Thur, and I expect lazers from that same guy and I'll just need to focus on softening my hands and catching in front of the body. I really think this guy relishes when you can't handle his passes, so, he makes a point of it. Anyway, I probably need to play less games at the lower level and spend more time with the better players. Go figure;)

That being said, there is a blade weight difference that does make a difference in the points I was referring to earlier. As a couple pointed out though, I was looking for a band aid and just need to raise my game.

Thanks for the comments (from all, not just SoulDriver) that set me straight somewhat.

Steve

[Souldriver 64]

No problem, if you see others handling his passes just fine ask them what they are doing to receive the pass. more than likely they may have an answer for you as well or something you didn't think of.

[Chadd 916]

Hmm... so, measuring from the butt end of the shaft, it's a 1 in difference. Granted, they are not cut exactly the same length, with the Zetterberg ~ 1/8 longer. I'm trying to determine if that adds or subtracts from the 1 in difference. Regardless, it's certainly more than 1/4 in.

Longer shaft will move the balance point up the shaft. I'm shocked to hear that the difference is that much. If both sticks are identical, other than the curve, it shouldn't be that much.

[ktang 34]

You have to take the axis of rotation into account too, because the "feel" of catching a pass and with stickhandling is dependent on the angular momentum. Mass dispersion "about" the axis of rotation affects the angular momentum, too.