Skates Mechanics and Fit effects on ice skating (according to Graf)

[Kgbeast 195]

Not sure how many can argue how much Graf has contributed to the culture of Ice Skating in general be it a Hockey or Figure Skating, or just fun. The company has seeing many breakthroughs in the developing of skates from the runners to the tendon guard. Their skates known to put lots of emphasis on the importance of ankle mobility and proper fit of the skates to the foot.  Doing some research on-line, I have came across this PDF document which in my opinion, shares quite a few nuggets of skates wisdom perhaps explains Graf's commitment to the overall philosophy of the skate design they have continued all the way until their decision to retire from the Americas and perhaps let their legacy to continue in Switzerland.

 

As it happens, I agree with everything that is said in this paper. There are also number of studies done in the field of figure skating that support the Graf's theories and observations. 

 

here is the link to the document Mechanics - Fit- Skating

 

Perhaps this can be a good read, or spark a debate.... Would like to hear some opinions of this. 

    

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

Yeah, that's why they are out of business.....

[enis750 48]

4 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Yeah, that's why they are out of business.....

 

ya no, it has nothing to do w that ...... 

 

good read, thanks for posting OP

 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

3 minutes ago, enis750 said:

 

ya no, it has nothing to do w that ...... 

 

good read, thanks for posting OP

 

 

Just sayin....  if they were THAT good they would still be in business!  Truth is the concept was excellent but the execution was sloppy.  Too many models to produce and suspect quality.

[chippa13 1844]

Company protection software won't let me get to that link so watch out any folks that actually can get there.

[Kgbeast 195]

Not sure if this will work... The link is to my webs space where I put the pdf file as I could not figure out how to display a pdf file in the post. I am not trying to infect anyone with malware... scouts honor :)

[Troubadour 46]

3 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

 

Just sayin....  if they were THAT good they would still be in business!  Truth is the concept was excellent but the execution was sloppy.  Too many models to produce and suspect quality.

 

Or because they were a niche company who didn't have enough popularity with youth skaters. Let's be real, that's where the money is. Everyone I know who swears by Grafs have had their skates for years and plan on keeping them for years. That isn't great for business. With youth skaters, they're growing and their skate size changes every 1-2 years. That means they are constantly buying new skates. Driving money into the company. Then you have skates that are super reliable and last for years. It was their own undoing. It's why car companies will make engines that don't last forever. You need people to keep buying and if it never breaks, no one buys again.

Now combine that with them trying to spread their product out to do more than just skates and making some lackluster products in that regard. Such as their terrible terrible sticks and you get a company that has spent far too much money trying to compete with Bauer and CCM and failing.

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

1 hour ago, Troubadour said:

 

Or because they were a niche company who didn't have enough popularity with youth skaters. Let's be real, that's where the money is. Everyone I know who swears by Grafs have had their skates for years and plan on keeping them for years. That isn't great for business. With youth skaters, they're growing and their skate size changes every 1-2 years. That means they are constantly buying new skates. Driving money into the company. Then you have skates that are super reliable and last for years. It was their own undoing. It's why car companies will make engines that don't last forever. You need people to keep buying and if it never breaks, no one buys again.

Now combine that with them trying to spread their product out to do more than just skates and making some lackluster products in that regard. Such as their terrible terrible sticks and you get a company that has spent far too much money trying to compete with Bauer and CCM and failing.

 

Fair analysis as well.

[VegasHockey 1283]

Seems legit. I agree with everything they say, however most every company says the same things as well. 

[Tyler55 10]

20 hours ago, Troubadour said:

 

Or because they were a niche company who didn't have enough popularity with youth skaters. Let's be real, that's where the money is. Everyone I know who swears by Grafs have had their skates for years and plan on keeping them for years. That isn't great for business. With youth skaters, they're growing and their skate size changes every 1-2 years. That means they are constantly buying new skates. Driving money into the company. Then you have skates that are super reliable and last for years. It was their own undoing. It's why car companies will make engines that don't last forever. You need people to keep buying and if it never breaks, no one buys again.

Now combine that with them trying to spread their product out to do more than just skates and making some lackluster products in that regard. Such as their terrible terrible sticks and you get a company that has spent far too much money trying to compete with Bauer and CCM and failing.

Graf was started in 1921 buy the Graf family in Switzerland. They were amazing shoe and boot craftsmen that understood biomechanics. They realized that Puma and Adidas (the brothers) were making the shoe and boot market hard to complete with. So since Graf was really good at skate boots, they concentrated on hockey and figure skating. Making the best in the world. Nike bought Bauer and taught them that marketing trumps everything. Tell kids that your skate is better, and it is better. Graf didn't keep up with the marketing and didn't make skates look flashy because they knew that fit and function leads to performance more than flashy marketing, colours, and a few grams. By the time Graf realized how to shave weight by using materials that didn't sacrifice performance, Bauer and Reebok-CCM had already used marketing to render Graf irrelevant. Kids didn't want it because it wasn't "cool". Then Graf Canada got a CEO who knew nothing about hockey and tried to make Graf into Bauer and CCM  by copying the design and moving everything to China. The final nail in the coffin. She tried to be a "me too" company instead of recognizing who your real demographic is, and making what they want. She also screwed over a lot of good people who worked there for years. She played chicken with the bank and lost. That's the end of Graf Canada. But if you want a really good pair of skates that will last you your whole beer league career, Graf AG is still around. 

[Healthyscratch 11]

I'm not a Bauer fan, the opposite actually. However there's no denying the popularity of their skates amongst people who get paid to play hockey.

 

The overwhelming majority of players in the NHL aren't using a particular brand because of marketing. 

[Tyler55 10]

17 hours ago, Healthyscratch said:

I'm not a Bauer fan, the opposite actually. However there's no denying the popularity of their skates amongst people who get paid to play hockey.

 

The overwhelming majority of players in the NHL aren't using a particular brand because of marketing. 

They make a great skate. So does CCM. But both of them learned a lot from Graf while they were leaving them behind. 

[chippa13 1844]

Sure, those upstarts over at Bauer and CCM knew nothing about skates, what, with their mere combined 2 centuries of skate making experience.

[Tyler55 10]

1 hour ago, chippa13 said:

Sure, those upstarts over at Bauer and CCM knew nothing about skates, what, with their mere combined 2 centuries of skate making experience.

I didn't mean that. I mean they make great skates but now they both have different skate fits which validates that not everyone can get maximum performance from the same boot. 

[Troubadour 46]

19 hours ago, Tyler55 said:

But if you want a really good pair of skates that will last you your whole beer league career, Graf AG is still around. 

 

To be perfectly honest, my next pair of skates will probably just be VH. I don't support Bauer from a moral standpoint. They're a poison on the hockey equipment market and I am not going to back them with my wallet. Because supporting them serves to drive my own costs up. VH makes custom skates for about the price of a top tier Bauer/CCM skate. So that's probably where my money will go. I like to support the smaller guy.

[Tyler55 10]

8 hours ago, Troubadour said:

 

To be perfectly honest, my next pair of skates will probably just be VH. I don't support Bauer from a moral standpoint. They're a poison on the hockey equipment market and I am not going to back them with my wallet. Because supporting them serves to drive my own costs up. VH makes custom skates for about the price of a top tier Bauer/CCM skate. So that's probably where my money will go. I like to support the smaller guy.

VH is the best skate now!  VH is the only skate made in North America. Graf is made in Switzerland. Everything else is made in China or Vietnam. 

[adam14 182]

I was under the impression that customs from Bauer and ccm are made in Canada, at least they were up until recently if no longer the case.

[chippa13 1844]

17 hours ago, Tyler55 said:

VH is the best skate now!  VH is the only skate made in North America. Graf is made in Switzerland. Everything else is made in China or Vietnam. 

Thank goodness VH is made in North America. Otherwise, all those guys who have to ship them back for tweaks would go broke.

[Kgbeast 195]

This thread has been hijacked and is used for venting about state of the Hockey industry, especially as it applies to skates. I will get a new thread started for this as I have some venting to do as well.

[Stryker 37]

Is this a paper or a blog? I see no citations or any indication of peer review, or even objective data to support these claims. I mean, it all seems to make sense anecdotally, but there really isn't any hard science here...

 

Especially the highlighted part, which is most contentious. "One of the theoretical solutions in controlling and dissipating ground reaction force has been to make a skate taller, stiffer and lighter. This has actually created more problems than it has solved." This has literally no explanation, and lists 0 actual problems caused by these situations. It then goes on to list issues with improperly fitted skates. Additionally, it fails to distinguish between lateral stability, and forward flex, which are 2 important aspects that are independent, but are lumped into one category for the purpose of this document. 

 

 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

1 hour ago, Stryker said:

Is this a paper or a blog? I see no citations or any indication of peer review, or even objective data to support these claims. I mean, it all seems to make sense anecdotally, but there really isn't any hard science here...

 

Especially the highlighted part, which is most contentious. "One of the theoretical solutions in controlling and dissipating ground reaction force has been to make a skate taller, stiffer and lighter. This has actually created more problems than it has solved." This has literally no explanation, and lists 0 actual problems caused by these situations. It then goes on to list issues with improperly fitted skates. Additionally, it fails to distinguish between lateral stability, and forward flex, which are 2 important aspects that are independent, but are lumped into one category for the purpose of this document. 

 

 

 

 

Actually there was a study done but because of the closing of the company you will probably never see it!

[Kgbeast 195]

I thought that if did cut short a bit before the article goes into the fit problems. That said, he is back to stiffnes of the boot towards the end when he claims that it would cause knee problems. Taller and lighter, not sure... It is easier to skate on lower skates, but with practice it becomes not a problem. Lighter skates could be a highly arguable point. It is easier to skate in heavier skates, but can be tiresome. I guess the point is when light is too light, when stiff is too stiff, and when tall is too tall. Obviously if skates would have a foot tall riser, you can see that that would be crippling without needing a study. But, 4mm or 5mm... claim is you get tighter turn, but can anyone really say that it is a game changer? You'd have to go back and look up why tube skates were put at that height and angle... they could have make them as low as strap-on skates or a foot tall. Perhaps, someone here has that research and can share.

[Kgbeast 195]

26 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

 

 

Actually there was a study done but because of the closing of the company you will probably never see it!

Not sure if the study was done by the Canadian guy who wrote the article, it might have been done by Swiss. If they have a study, they should make it available. Graf AG is very much into all this. They did go with 4mm higher raisers now, but that could have been just so they can appear not at disadvantage comparing to higher CCM and Bauer skates. Their weight gone down, but not as light as some of the competitions. Their Flex philosophy is pretty well rooted though. It looks like they would rather go out of business than make a full on ski-boot. They make skates in two flexes Flex75 and Flex85... where Flex75 is for under 170lb blokes, while Flex85 is for someone from 170lb to 230lb... and hopefully over :). What Graf is seriously behind, is with their literature... they need to publish some more reading material about the difference between Seven holders and Cobras. How the 3D heel lock works, about the Flex75 and Flex85, all the quirks about sticks and pads... goalie equipment. They make so much crap, but have the least of info.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

The study I know about is Canadian and I just don't think it will be released.