VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne

[JD17 2]

11 minutes ago, Healthyscratch said:

I need some help.

I got True customs. I did not want the True Holders, and requested that they drill holes for TUUKS. 
 

While True is going to make the boots and send them, they are declining to drill for Bauer holders, and on top of that - they refuse to send me the True holders and step steel that I paid for. Apparently it is a “penalty” if you don’t opt to get their holders put on skate. While I don’t plan on using the holders or steel, it’s still something I paid for...
 

The drilling is not a big issue, I can have that done locally. I’d prefer to have them do it but I digress. Has anyone else had them tell you they won’t ship you holders as a penalty, or not offer a price adjustment? 
 

That’s crazy and a real bad look on True if that’s the case. 

If this is now how True operates I will go w another brand for my next pair.  I got Tuuks on mine. No issues. 

[Healthyscratch 11]

1 hour ago, JD17 said:

If this is now how True operates I will go w another brand for my next pair.  I got Tuuks on mine. No issues. 

Yeah, I mean, the holders probably make up $30 of the price but the step steel that comes with is a significant cost to the customer. 
 

Where it stand right now, I’m overpaying for boots with no holders or steel included due to a companies ego. I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt if this isn’t accurate - is there someone from True here who can explain? 
 

I have attempted to contact True directly. Each time, I reach their general customer service who can never answer questions about the skates. They direct me to the “warehouse” where the skates are made - no one ever answers the phone there. I leave voicemails and never hear back from them. They are piss poor with customer service, I can say that much. If you guys aren’t interested in helping your retail customers - take the boots out of the retail market and cater to pros only. 
 

I’m paying for a custom skate. Offer the custom experience that should come with that. 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Healthyscratch

[Buzz_LightBeer 969]

6 hours ago, Healthyscratch said:

I’m paying for a custom skate. Offer the custom experience that should come with that. 

Just playing devil's advocate here, but ask Bauer or CCM to install another companies holder, and I'm guessing you'll get the same answer.

 

True has their own holder now. They're not going to stock Tuuk holders for Gen Pop custom orders

[Healthyscratch 11]

38 minutes ago, Buzz_LightBeer said:

Just playing devil's advocate here, but ask Bauer or CCM to install another companies holder, and I'm guessing you'll get the same answer.

 

True has their own holder now. They're not going to stock Tuuk holders for Gen Pop custom orders

I’m not asking them to sell me or install Bauer’s holders - I’m asking them to ship me the holders and steel that I am paying for along with the boots. 
 

Basically, True is penalizing me because I don’t want the holders attached to the skates. It’s ridiculous, which is why I’m hoping there was something lost in translation. 
 

I paid the amount of money they require for the entire skate, yet they’re only sending me the boots. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Healthyscratch

[JD17 2]

28 minutes ago, Healthyscratch said:

I’m not asking them to sell me or install Bauer’s holders - I’m asking them to ship me the holders and steel that I am paying for along with the boots. 
 

Basically, True is penalizing me because I don’t want the holders attached to the skates. It’s ridiculous, which is why I’m hoping there was something lost in translation. 
 

I paid the amount of money they require for the entire skate, yet they’re only sending me the boots. 

Yea they will just send the boots, the shop will install the other holders you like.  I switched to tuuks when I had ccm, never liked any ccm holders.

[JD17 2]

7 hours ago, Healthyscratch said:

Yeah, I mean, the holders probably make up $30 of the price but the step steel that comes with is a significant cost to the customer. 
 

Where it stand right now, I’m overpaying for boots with no holders or steel included due to a companies ego. I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt if this isn’t accurate - is there someone from True here who can explain? 
 

I have attempted to contact True directly. Each time, I reach their general customer service who can never answer questions about the skates. They direct me to the “warehouse” where the skates are made - no one ever answers the phone there. I leave voicemails and never hear back from them. They are piss poor with customer service, I can say that much. If you guys aren’t interested in helping your retail customers - take the boots out of the retail market and cater to pros only. 
 

I’m paying for a custom skate. Offer the custom experience that should come with that. 

 

You can always sell the extra True steel on sideline swap, plenty of people use it. 

[shoot_the_goalie 281]

1 hour ago, Healthyscratch said:

I’m not asking them to sell me or install Bauer’s holders - I’m asking them to ship me the holders and steel that I am paying for along with the boots. 
 

Basically, True is penalizing me because I don’t want the holders attached to the skates. It’s ridiculous, which is why I’m hoping there was something lost in translation. 
 

I paid the amount of money they require for the entire skate, yet they’re only sending me the boots. 

If I'm getting this straight, if you don't have the Shift holder mounted to the boot, all they will send you is the un-drilled boots w/o the holders and steel?  To me, who has a favorable view of True and their CS dept., this does sound like a bit of a harsh penalty for not wanting to use their holders.  But as someone previously said, I would assume other skate companies might do the same thing or not even give you the option, since it does hurt their brand.

[JD17 2]

4 minutes ago, shoot_the_goalie said:

If I'm getting this straight, if you don't have the Shift holder mounted to the boot, all they will send you is the un-drilled boots w/o the holders and steel?  To me, who has a favorable view of True and their CS dept., this does sound like a bit of a harsh penalty for not wanting to use their holders.  But as someone previously said, I would assume other skate companies might do the same thing or not even give you the option, since it does hurt their brand.

You would have the store you order from facilitate.  I just ordered and asked for tuuks, True sent the store the boot and they mounted tuuks but this was before the TF line came out. Find a good True retailer.  Also, I never had issues with their customer service directly but I know they prefer all contact is handled by the retailer. The key is to find a certified True retailer and work through them.

[Miller55 333]

For something like you should have the retailer request that they ship the boots undrilled with the holder and steel.

If you hadn't requested that they drill holes for tuuks there is no way they can know that you aren't planning on using the shift holders. You can just say that you prefer to have your local pro shop mount them to your specs of they ask.

I don't see what you gain by having True drill the holes for you instead of just having whoever is mounting the tuuks just do it. 

14 hours ago, Buzz_LightBeer said:

Just playing devil's advocate here, but ask Bauer or CCM to install another companies holder, and I'm guessing you'll get the same answer.

 

True has their own holder now. They're not going to stock Tuuk holders for Gen Pop custom orders

While I agree, the fact is that True used to do it and stopped. While I get that now they are pushing their own holder, it doesn't change the fact that they have many returning customers who had this done in the past and are going to be unhappy that they are now being forced into using the shift holders.

Frankly, I think it was foolish of True to make their holder completely unlike the tuuks. CCM was smart by making their XS holder play very similar to tuuks, and True would have been wise to do the same. Then nobody would have cared very much, except Bauer. But there's obviously ways to avoid any infringement on ip while still creating a similar style holder. But the shift holder is totally different and requires a lot of adjustment, and they're asking people for a lot more loyalty than people might have, which will only hurt True.

[VegasHockey 1280]

9 minutes ago, Miller55 said:

For something like you should have the retailer request that they ship the boots undrilled with the holder and steel.

If you hadn't requested that they drill holes for tuuks there is no way they can know that you aren't planning on using the shift holders. You can just say that you prefer to have your local pro shop mount them to your specs of they ask.

I don't see what you gain by having True drill the holes for you instead of just having whoever is mounting the tuuks just do it. 

While I agree, the fact is that True used to do it and stopped. While I get that now they are pushing their own holder, it doesn't change the fact that they have many returning customers who had this done in the past and are going to be unhappy that they are now being forced into using the shift holders.

Frankly, I think it was foolish of True to make their holder completely unlike the tuuks. CCM was smart by making their XS holder play very similar to tuuks, and True would have been wise to do the same. Then nobody would have cared very much, except Bauer. But there's obviously ways to avoid any infringement on ip while still creating a similar style holder. But the shift holder is totally different and requires a lot of adjustment, and they're asking people for a lot more loyalty than people might have, which will only hurt True.

I think TRUE is more focused on trying to innovate as opposed to do things like everyone else. However, getting people to adopt innovations is a long and difficult road.

With many innovations at some point you are going to upset some of the consumers, for example, how many consumers and companies in the automotive industry dislike so many things Tesla is doing. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by PBH

[JD17 2]

12 minutes ago, PBH said:

I think TRUE is more focused on trying to innovate as opposed to do things like everyone else. However, getting people to adopt innovations is a long and difficult road.

With many innovations at some point you are going to upset some of the consumers, for example, how many consumers and companies in the automotive industry dislike so many things Tesla is doing. 

I think they do a great job at True and the market needs them. Look how ccm and bauer upped their custom game.  There are some critiques I have about True, mainly with the boot construction that builds in a defaulted shin angle.  This is great for forward striding which is probably just 2-5% of game play.   In todays game u need to splay the foot and roll ankles to access the edges with ease.   Nothing wrong with innovating and they should do more and apply what works.  I liked True better when they had just one option. I dont want to flex that I have a "custom" skate and I despise the graphics on all these new wheels. At the end of the day they are just knife shoes. 

[JD17 2]

Innovation is good when it works.  LS holders for example.  The innovations that are cost effective and conveinience or durability based last, velcro on jocks, ls holders, cutting thumb loops in gloves, carbon 1 piece sticks...performance innovation is just marketing. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

26 minutes ago, JD17 said:

I think they do a great job at True and the market needs them. Look how ccm and bauer upped their custom game.  There are some critiques I have about True, mainly with the boot construction that builds in a defaulted shin angle.  This is great for forward striding which is probably just 2-5% of game play.   In todays game u need to splay the foot and roll ankles to access the edges with ease.   Nothing wrong with innovating and they should do more and apply what works.  I liked True better when they had just one option. I dont want to flex that I have a "custom" skate and I despise the graphics on all these new wheels. At the end of the day they are just knife shoes. 

The graphics for retail are fine, but for customs I think they should have kept the previous design as I see nothing wrong with it. That "custom" jewel they added is terrible. 

24 minutes ago, JD17 said:

Innovation is good when it works.  LS holders for example.  The innovations that are cost effective and convenience or durability based last, velcro on jocks, ls holders, cutting thumb loops in gloves, carbon 1 piece sticks...performance innovation is just marketing. 

Having symmetrical holders that also provide performance increase don't fall into that category? 

[Miller55 333]

1 hour ago, PBH said:

I think TRUE is more focused on trying to innovate as opposed to do things like everyone else. However, getting people to adopt innovations is a long and difficult road.

With many innovations at some point you are going to upset some of the consumers, for example, how many consumers and companies in the automotive industry dislike so many things Tesla is doing. 

I agree, I just think they shot themselves in the foot with this holder. There's plenty to innovate, but challenging the tuuk holder is not going to get you very far. You just have to know where to put your resources.

I'm not saying that one day way down the road the shift might not experience some popularity. I don't know what will be and anything's possible. Heck, 20 years ago I never would have believe that Easton hockey or TPS don't exist anymore. My point is just that I don't think it was wise. Heck, they can't even get pros onto their holders, how are they gonna get regular folks on them?

[VegasHockey 1280]

18 minutes ago, Miller55 said:

I agree, I just think they shot themselves in the foot with this holder. There's plenty to innovate, but challenging the tuuk holder is not going to get you very far. You just have to know where to put your resources.

I'm not saying that one day way down the road the shift might not experience some popularity. I don't know what will be and anything's possible. Heck, 20 years ago I never would have believe that Easton hockey or TPS don't exist anymore. My point is just that I don't think it was wise. Heck, they can't even get pros onto their holders, how are they gonna get regular folks on them?

Lets be realistic, none of the current pros are going to change what works for them. I think TRUE is trying to get the next generation of players to adopt the holder. Similar to the demographics that Apple, Telsa and other disruptors and innovators target. 

[Healthyscratch 11]

So I spoke to True today. Had to pretend I was a pro hockey player while being prompted on the phone - either dial 1 for retail customer or dial 2 pro customer. 
 

Ofcourse that went directly to someone’s cell phone and they answered - after weeks of trying to get a hold of them.
 

It is Trues policy that if you don’t not want the holders attached to the skate - that you will not receive the holders or step steel... and still pay full price. This is not good business. It’s like a dealership selling you a sports car with no tires because you plan on changing to a different set.
 

Currently considering canceling the order. I have just about had enough of this company. I had a pair of skates come in a few years back that were way off in size, and I had to jump through hoops for over a month to get them to make new skates. The other pairs I ordered were flawless, but the bad is starting to outweigh the good in my experience with True. I don’t take - taking a company to task lightly... but this bullshit. 
 

True obviously doesn’t know their customer base in that most people who are buying their custom product know exactly what they want. Why they are “penalizing” their customers who don’t opt to use their shift holders is beyond me. You aren’t going to get those customers wearing your holders, again, that demographic knows exactly what they want, they’re just going to switch to their preferred holder - you’re just going to piss that demographic of customer off by charging them full price, and not sending them the entire product they purchased, regardless of if it’s put together before leaving the warehouse. 


What is the difference between Bauer custom and True. I know at one point, Trues entire boot was quote unquote custom outside of toe cap... it seemed like Bauer and CCM where only about 80% custom. Is that true, still the case? 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Healthyscratch

[Miller55 333]

18 minutes ago, PBH said:

Lets be realistic, none of the current pros are going to change what works for them. I think TRUE is trying to get the next generation of players to adopt the holder. Similar to the demographics that Apple, Telsa and other disruptors and innovators target. 

But that's exactly my point. True got these pros to change boots. Were Bauer and CCM boots "not working for them?" I doubt it. True innovated something that people could get on board with in their boots. Pros had Bauers that worked for them, and choose True because they felt it worked better (+endorsement contracts, etc). But they aren't choosing shifts over tuuks because they don't feel they work better. 

[Healthyscratch 11]

2 minutes ago, Miller55 said:

But that's exactly my point. True got these pros to change boots. Were Bauer and CCM boots "not working for them?" I doubt it. True innovated something that people could get on board with in their boots. Pros had Bauers that worked for them, and choose True because they felt it worked better (+endorsement contracts, etc). But they aren't choosing shifts over tuuks because they don't feel they work better. 

They don’t work better because that steel design is not a good one. The large piece on the end that slots into the holder breaks easily. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 minutes ago, Healthyscratch said:

They don’t work better because that steel design is not a good one. The large piece on the end that slots into the holder breaks easily. 

The first generation steel had a larger window which was later changed due to breakage. I have not seen any of the updated steel break. 

[215BroadStBullies610 435]

23 minutes ago, Healthyscratch said:

So I spoke to True today. Had to pretend I was a pro hockey player while being prompted on the phone - either dial 1 for retail customer or dial 2 pro customer. 
 

Ofcourse that went directly to someone’s cell phone and they answered. 
 

It is Trues policy that if you don’t not want the holders attached to the skate - that you will not receive the holders or step steel... and still pay full price. This is not good business. It’s like a dealership selling you a sports car with no tires because you plan on changing to a different set.
 

Currently considering canceling the order. I have just about had enough of this company. I had a pair of skates come in a few years back that were way off in size, and I had to jump through hoops for over a month to get them to make new skates. The other pairs I ordered were flawless, but the bad is starting to outweigh the good in my experience with True. I don’t take - taking a company to task lightly... but this bullshit. 
 

True obviously doesn’t know their customer base in that most people who are buying their custom product know exactly what they want. 
A casual player, or let’s be honest - most consumers are defaulting to Bauer and CCM. They show up at the LHS and leave with whatever feels best, and it works for them. 
 

 

What is the difference between Bauer custom and True. I know at one point, Trues entire boot was quote unquote custom outside of toe cap... it seemed like Bauer and CCM where only about 80% custom. Is that true, still the case? 

 

This may be a problem for you but it doesn't seem to be the difference for most non-high level players when it comes to go with True. I really don't see the point of them lowering the price of the boot if it comes without True's holder. No way they could even obtain a slice of the market share if they offered "boot only" prices. That would only weaken True's attempt to become a legitimate contender to Bauer's TUUK/Lightspeed holder.

[Healthyscratch 11]

13 minutes ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

This may be a problem for you but it doesn't seem to be the difference for most non-high level players when it comes to go with True. I really don't see the point of them lowering the price of the boot if it comes without True's holder. No way they could even obtain a slice of the market share if they offered "boot only" prices. That would only weaken True's attempt to become a legitimate contender to Bauer's TUUK/Lightspeed holder.

True can sell all of the shift holders they want on their retail skates and try to get a slice of the market. 
 

So if they won’t lower price to reflect the product I’m getting (just a boot and presumably laces), the least they could do is send me the product I’m paying for, correct? 
 

I pay X amount of money for product offered. Product offered is Boot, laces, holder, steel. I ask that they don’t attach holders, and by proxy, steel. So the response is they keep the holders and steel, send me the boot, and still charge me the price I would pay for the boot and holders, steel. 
 

How is that smart business? I have bought these skates for 4 years now. I now want to explore other brands, I won’t be the last one to feel this way once people really start to figure this out. Then what slice of the market are they getting? 

Again, this is like a Jaguar dealer keeping the Firestone tires that came with the new car because you intend to not use them, and put Goodyear’s on. They’ll have the Jaguar on blocks out front ready for you. 
 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Healthyscratch

[215BroadStBullies610 435]

Its smart business because it forces the customer to actually consider using their holder. Once again, it may not work for you but there is nothing I've seen or heard that says its been detrimental to how they conduct business. You are always free to go somewhere else and have every reason to feel the way you do. I just understand why True is doing it and would do the same thing if I were in their shoes. 

[Healthyscratch 11]

And again, you aren’t forcing most people who go True custom to use their holder by penalizing them. These people go True custom because they know what they want. Your average casual player is not going into the LHS and getting custom skates, the guys who really have it nailed down to what they want are... So let’s be real... is that type of customer going to use their holder, just because True thinks they should or wants them to? 
 

So what you’re saying is holding the customer hostage is a way to make sure they use your product? You shouldn’t have to strong arm people into using your product, which is exactly what they are attempting to do by your logic. 
 

Retail, sure, fire away. Let all the retail customers use the shift, no exclusions. 
 

If it were just the holders, whatever, honestly. The Step Steel though, we all know that’s $100+ of the price. You can’t spin this into being a legitimate way to do business. 
 

Which is a shame because when done right, the boot is a phenomenal boot. Nothing but positive things to say about the skate itself. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Healthyscratch

[215BroadStBullies610 435]

Hostage is a strong word hahaha. All I'm saying is that it hasn't been a determent from people getting True Customs. Like I said, from YOUR perspective, you just want to get a boot from True. From True's perspective, they are trying to make their holder as mainstream as possible with SIGNIFICANT barriers of entry to overcome. They are using any form of leverage that they have. And I'm sure if their business was suffering, they'd change this practice. I see no problem with it.  

[Healthyscratch 11]

Respectfully disagree.