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VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne

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And again, you aren’t forcing most people who go True custom to use their holder by penalizing them. These people go True custom because they know what they want. Your average casual player is not going into the LHS and getting custom skates, the guys who really have it nailed down to what they want are... So let’s be real... is that type of customer going to use their holder, just because True thinks they should or wants them to? 
 

So what you’re saying is holding the customer hostage is a way to make sure they use your product? You shouldn’t have to strong arm people into using your product, which is exactly what they are attempting to do by your logic. 
 

Retail, sure, fire away. Let all the retail customers use the shift, no exclusions. 
 

If it were just the holders, whatever, honestly. The Step Steel though, we all know that’s $100+ of the price. You can’t spin this into being a legitimate way to do business. 
 

Which is a shame because when done right, the boot is a phenomenal boot. Nothing but positive things to say about the skate itself. 

Edited by Healthyscratch

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Hostage is a strong word hahaha. All I'm saying is that it hasn't been a determent from people getting True Customs. Like I said, from YOUR perspective, you just want to get a boot from True. From True's perspective, they are trying to make their holder as mainstream as possible with SIGNIFICANT barriers of entry to overcome. They are using any form of leverage that they have. And I'm sure if their business was suffering, they'd change this practice. I see no problem with it.  

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They probably know their customer to the extent that they know exactly how many people request other holders vs. just going with theirs, which we don't.  Product managers make decisions like this day in and day out that will piss off some people but since they should know their business, don't have any effect on their overall success.  I am constantly getting feedback from people internal and external about what I should do with my products, many/most of them don't have the big picture.

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29 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

They probably know their customer to the extent that they know exactly how many people request other holders vs. just going with theirs, which we don't.  Product managers make decisions like this day in and day out that will piss off some people but since they should know their business, don't have any effect on their overall success.  I am constantly getting feedback from people internal and external about what I should do with my products, many/most of them don't have the big picture.

Pretty much my point but much more concise and spoken by someone with real world experience. I'd trust a global brand like True to know enough about skates and what the majority of their customers prioritize.

Edited by 215BroadStBullies610

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29 minutes ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

Hostage is a strong word hahaha. All I'm saying is that it hasn't been a determent from people getting True Customs. Like I said, from YOUR perspective, you just want to get a boot from True. From True's perspective, they are trying to make their holder as mainstream as possible with SIGNIFICANT barriers of entry to overcome. They are using any form of leverage that they have. And I'm sure if their business was suffering, they'd change this practice. I see no problem with it.  

This goes back to the point I was trying to get across on the last page, about how it becomes very questionable if they are innovating anything. Sounds to me like they tried to step up to a giant and are getting their salads tossed by tuuk, and now they're trying to strong arm a very small percentage of their customers into using the shift holders. I don't see the value, since I have to assume that the percentage of custom orders that ask for a different holder are pretty slim. In this case all you're really doing is pissing on a few loyal customers who expect a service that you used to provide.

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38 minutes ago, Miller55 said:

This goes back to the point I was trying to get across on the last page, about how it becomes very questionable if they are innovating anything. Sounds to me like they tried to step up to a giant and are getting their salads tossed by tuuk, and now they're trying to strong arm a very small percentage of their customers into using the shift holders. I don't see the value, since I have to assume that the percentage of custom orders that ask for a different holder are pretty slim. In this case all you're really doing is pissing on a few loyal customers who expect a service that you used to provide.

I mean at the end of the day if ur willing to pay for the extra tuuk holders and labor to change it I am sure some local hockey shop will do it. 

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1 minute ago, JD17 said:

I mean at the end of the day if ur willing to pay for the extra tuuk holders and labor to change it I am sure some local hockey shop will do it. 

Btw when is bauer doing a monocock one piece?

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I personally think they should provide a different option (in terms and/or price) if you don't want the SHIFT holder mounted.  But I also understand why they wouldn't really want to offer that option.  You know people who don't mount SHIFT holders are going to resell them, and a flood of SHIFT holders being sold on 2nd hand sites will hurt their reputation, and in turn the brand, regardless of the actual quality of the SHIFT.

With that said, I like True skates so much, that if I were to ask them to not mount holders, I ultimately wouldn't care if I got the SHIFT holders and steel with them.  I would prefer to get them, but it wouldn't be a dealbreaker, which I'm sure True understands within their customer retention metrics.

Finally, I just got to see the CCM XS holder up close, and I really like them.  I'm sure this has been discussed before (but this thread is huge)...  I assume the XS holders do not line up with the SHIFT holder holes.

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1 hour ago, shoot_the_goalie said:

I personally think they should provide a different option (in terms and/or price) if you don't want the SHIFT holder mounted.  But I also understand why they wouldn't really want to offer that option.  You know people who don't mount SHIFT holders are going to resell them, and a flood of SHIFT holders being sold on 2nd hand sites will hurt their reputation, and in turn the brand, regardless of the actual quality of the SHIFT.

With that said, I like True skates so much, that if I were to ask them to not mount holders, I ultimately wouldn't care if I got the SHIFT holders and steel with them.  I would prefer to get them, but it wouldn't be a dealbreaker, which I'm sure True understands within their customer retention metrics.

Finally, I just got to see the CCM XS holder up close, and I really like them.  I'm sure this has been discussed before (but this thread is huge)...  I assume the XS holders do not line up with the SHIFT holder holes.

The holes do not line up.

I'm sure there are more customers like you than the other guy. However, as a matter of principle, I do feel like when a custom brand that has gained a large customer base by being very accommodating of custom options decides to change their offerings, for whatever reason, there should be some clear announcement and they should own it. (I feel the same way about Eagle custom glove options. One day you'll go to have custom H34s made and they don't do it anymore. On the other hand, when Warrior shut down the Montreal factory, they posted on here I remember reading that post where they notified the good, paying customers on this site and others that their custom options would be changing drastically soon, and we should get our orders in while we still can. They were straight up about it and they owned it and I respect and appreciate that).

It's not like they came out and said that with the release of the shift holder they are no longer offering other options. It's not like they told people about this "penalty" or whatever. I just don't think it's fair to do something like that without first letting people know your new terms and policies.

Frankly, that's what I'd be pissed about in such a case. I purchased Trues a few years ago and now I'm coming back and your custom options have changed, I wasn't notified and now I'm getting penalized for something that you didn't make expressly clear. And if the retainer didn't tell me I wouldn't be thrilled with them either. If you change something and then hide that in the fine print, that's when I would take my business elsewhere. 

And also, I don't really care that True doesn't want the second hand market flooded with their holders. If I paid for it then they ought to send it, and if they aren't going to then I would definitely expect the price to change. Otherwise I would just go Bauer or CCM custom.

Edited by Miller55

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1 hour ago, Miller55 said:

The holes do not line up.

I'm sure there are more customers like you than the other guy. However, as a matter of principle, I do feel like when a custom brand that has gained a large customer base by being very accommodating of custom options decides to change their offerings, for whatever reason, there should be some clear announcement and they should own it. (I feel the same way about Eagle custom glove options. One day you'll go to have custom H34s made and they don't do it anymore. On the other hand, when Warrior shut down the Montreal factory, they posted on here I remember reading that post where they notified the good, paying customers on this site and others that their custom options would be changing drastically soon, and we should get our orders in while we still can. They were straight up about it and they owned it and I respect and appreciate that).

It's not like they came out and said that with the release of the shift holder they are no longer offering other options. It's not like they told people about this "penalty" or whatever. I just don't think it's fair to do something like that without first letting people know your new terms and policies.

Frankly, that's what I'd be pissed about in such a case. I purchased Trues a few years ago and now I'm coming back and your custom options have changed, I wasn't notified and now I'm getting penalized for something that you didn't make expressly clear. And if the retainer didn't tell me I wouldn't be thrilled with them either. If you change something and then hide that in the fine print, that's when I would take my business elsewhere. 

And also, I don't really care that True doesn't want the second hand market flooded with their holders. If I paid for it then they ought to send it, and if they aren't going to then I would definitely expect the price to change. Otherwise I would just go Bauer or CCM custom.

Well, the good news is any shop that is worth it's salt can easily drill holes and mount holders. If they can't perform tasks like that you might want to consider go to someone else.

May I ask the shop that told you they can't get the boots with holes drilled? Was it BTM? 

Edited by PBH

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4 hours ago, shoot_the_goalie said:

I personally think they should provide a different option (in terms and/or price) if you don't want the SHIFT holder mounted.  But I also understand why they wouldn't really want to offer that option.  You know people who don't mount SHIFT holders are going to resell them, and a flood of SHIFT holders being sold on 2nd hand sites will hurt their reputation, and in turn the brand, regardless of the actual quality of the SHIFT.

With that said, I like True skates so much, that if I were to ask them to not mount holders, I ultimately wouldn't care if I got the SHIFT holders and steel with them.  I would prefer to get them, but it wouldn't be a dealbreaker, which I'm sure True understands within their customer retention metrics.

Finally, I just got to see the CCM XS holder up close, and I really like them.  I'm sure this has been discussed before (but this thread is huge)...  I assume the XS holders do not line up with the SHIFT holder holes.

Im curious if the xs holders click like the ccm sb holders. They really made a smart move buying step. Haven't decided on what to get for my next pair yet but probably will rig it with an LS no matter the boot.  I m a steel diva...imagine lots of folks on here are too.  

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2 hours ago, PBH said:

Well, the good news is any shop that is worth it's salt can easily drill holes and mount holders. If they can't perform tasks like that you might want to consider go to someone else.

May I ask the shop that told you they can't get the boots with holes drilled? Was it BTM? 

I'm not sure what you're talking about... I was responding to his question if the xs holes line up with the shift. 

However, while I don't understand the nature of your question, anything I've had to do has been done well enough at ice den in Scottsdale. BTM seems like a bit of a joke to me. I've bought tape and a Krejci pro stock, and I tried on the tf9s there but didn't buy. Wasn't impressed by the one in Scottsdale or in Peoria.

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1 hour ago, JD17 said:

Im curious if the xs holders click like the ccm sb holders. They really made a smart move buying step. Haven't decided on what to get for my next pair yet but probably will rig it with an LS no matter the boot.  I m a steel diva...imagine lots of folks on here are too.  

I have only seen one pair of XS holders that click when you walk. This was due to the player using RamonEdge steel which is slightly wider than standard steel for the holder by roughly 1mil. Even though that is VERY small, over time that 1mil stretches out the holder and when you put standard steel back in it will slightly wiggle in the holder. 

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8 minutes ago, Miller55 said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about... I was responding to his question if the xs holes line up with the shift. 

However, while I don't understand the nature of your question, anything I've had to do has been done well enough at ice den in Scottsdale. BTM seems like a bit of a joke to me. I've bought tape and a Krejci pro stock, and I tried on the tf9s there but didn't buy. Wasn't impressed by the one in Scottsdale or in Peoria.

I was reading while mobile and confused one of your replies with another persons.... or maybe I spent too much time today doing stuff with epoxy and got a little tipsy. Ha! 

 

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15 hours ago, Miller55 said:

This goes back to the point I was trying to get across on the last page, about how it becomes very questionable if they are innovating anything. Sounds to me like they tried to step up to a giant and are getting their salads tossed by tuuk, and now they're trying to strong arm a very small percentage of their customers into using the shift holders. I don't see the value, since I have to assume that the percentage of custom orders that ask for a different holder are pretty slim. In this case all you're really doing is pissing on a few loyal customers who expect a service that you used to provide.

A few. You're making my point for me. I don't see it as innovation. I see it as looking at the best way to TRY to get some of the market share. I venture to say that if True had the "Boot Only" option, that most custom orders would take that one (I being one of them). So True is going with "all or nothing" and I don't see this revolution of people saying that they aren't buying True Customs anymore and headed to Bauer and CCM for their "custom" skates. Once again, if True was loosing money doing this, I'm sure they'd changes up. The "few" who are pissed off can go to Bauer and CCM. I'd like to see/hear how much better of an experience it has been for them haha.

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20 hours ago, Healthyscratch said:

And again, you aren’t forcing most people who go True custom to use their holder by penalizing them. These people go True custom because they know what they want. Your average casual player is not going into the LHS and getting custom skates, the guys who really have it nailed down to what they want are... So let’s be real... is that type of customer going to use their holder, just because True thinks they should or wants them to? 
 

So what you’re saying is holding the customer hostage is a way to make sure they use your product? You shouldn’t have to strong arm people into using your product, which is exactly what they are attempting to do by your logic. 
 

Retail, sure, fire away. Let all the retail customers use the shift, no exclusions. 
 

If it were just the holders, whatever, honestly. The Step Steel though, we all know that’s $100+ of the price. You can’t spin this into being a legitimate way to do business. 
 

Which is a shame because when done right, the boot is a phenomenal boot. Nothing but positive things to say about the skate itself. 

Maybe you can look at it this way: The price they charge is just for the boot. If you want their holder, they give it to you and install it free of charge as a bonus to promote it. 😄

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17 hours ago, JD17 said:

Btw when is bauer doing a monocock one piece?

I'm guessing that they don't perceive any performance gain over a composite 2-piece boot.  The fact that almost 75% of NHL Players are skating in 2-piece boots between Bauer and CCM might back that up. After all they could easily introduce a monocoque boot if they wanted to seeing they bought the Mako skate.

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22 minutes ago, mojo122 said:

I'm guessing that they don't perceive any performance gain over a composite 2-piece boot.  The fact that almost 75% of NHL Players are skating in 2-piece boots between Bauer and CCM might back that up. After all they could easily introduce a monocoque boot if they wanted to seeing they bought the Mako skate.

I think 2-piece skates in the NHL are now a minority. Between TRUE and CCM taking a lot of Bauer market share I dont think Bauer owns the skate market in the NHL anymore. 

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3 hours ago, Larry54 said:

Maybe you can look at it this way: The price they charge is just for the boot. If you want their holder, they give it to you and install it free of charge as a bonus to promote it. 😄

If that’s the case then they should say that. I doubt the holders are being molded for free, and I doubt the steel is being molded and sold to them for free.

I think I it’s safe to say that even at wholesale prices that True pays for the material - they are still passing $100+ cost on to the customer to cover their investment in holders and step steel. 
 

I haven’t seen a reasonable explanation here yet. Just a lot of, True should do that and you should deal with it because they need to get their holder out there. 
 

It’s really crazy to see how people twist ways to defend this company. I’ve said repeatedly that the boot is GREAT, the product is GREAT. The business behind it is seemingly pretty sketchy. 
 

There’s really no way to justify charging a fixed price for a boot, holder and steel... and only sending someone the boot - because they don’t want the holder and steel attached. 
 

What are CCM jetspeed and Bauer’s vapor customs like compared to True. The reason I went with True in the first place is because it was the closet thing I could find to a Mako. 

 

Edited by Healthyscratch

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53 minutes ago, Healthyscratch said:

There’s really no way to justify charging a fixed price for a boot, holder and steel... and only sending someone the boot - because they don’t want the holder and steel attached. 

There is, and it's the only way that matters, they determined that overall not providing the holder is better for their business.  

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3 hours ago, PBH said:

I think 2-piece skates in the NHL are now a minority. Between TRUE and CCM taking a lot of Bauer market share I dont think Bauer owns the skate market in the NHL anymore. 

Show me the data that backs that up.  

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1 hour ago, Healthyscratch said:

I haven’t seen a reasonable explanation here yet. Just a lot of, True should do that and you should deal with it because they need to get their holder out there. 
 

It’s really crazy to see how people twist ways to defend this company. I’ve said repeatedly that the boot is GREAT, the product is GREAT. The business behind it is seemingly pretty sketchy. 
 

There’s really no way to justify charging a fixed price for a boot, holder and steel... and only sending someone the boot - because they don’t want the holder and steel attached. 
 

I have no motivation to defend True, but what are they doing so differently from Bauer and/or CCM?

You are paying for a custom complete skate, the fact you don't like or want their holders means zero to them. None of those companies at the retail custom level will ship you boots only.

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2 hours ago, Buzz_LightBeer said:

I have no motivation to defend True, but what are they doing so differently from Bauer and/or CCM?

You are paying for a custom complete skate, the fact you don't like or want their holders means zero to them. None of those companies at the retail custom level will ship you boots only.

That's not his issue. His issue is that he wants the holder and steel that he paid for. It's not a question of boots only or full skates, it's a question of getting all of the parts that you paid for and rightfully deserve. 

I know for a fact that you can get True to send you boots undrilled with holders and steel. I have a roller teammate who did it, mounted Marsblade R1 and sold the holders and steel. But he didn't tell True he was gonna do that. The mistake this guy made is asking True to do holes for tuuks. Bottom line, you pay for something, you should get it. 

 

Regarding Bauer, if you get the right retailer, you can get Bauer to ship you boots undrilled with the holders and steel separately. This i know from experience. Not sure about CCM. I'd imagine it's the same, with the right connection. True would do the same also, but in this case, since he says he's gonna put on tuuks, they said they're not gonna send him the shifts. You can justify and rationalize it a million different ways, it's wrong

Edited by Miller55

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1 hour ago, Miller55 said:

I know for a fact that you can get True to send you boots undrilled with holders and steel. I have a roller teammate who did it, mounted Marsblade R1 and sold the holders and steel. But he didn't tell True he was gonna do that. The mistake this guy made is asking True to do holes for tuuks. Bottom line, you pay for something, you should get it. 

I get that, I think a message got lost in the exchange there. It seems implausible that True would refuse to send holders now if asked. It would seem more likely that True said he could get custom skates, or custom boots only, but the price remains the same. 

Aside from that, the retailer he's purchasing through should be handling all these issues for him.

Edited by Buzz_LightBeer

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