D Zone system (beer league)

[stick9 892]

With the variying levels of talent, experience and player turnover seen in your average beer leagues. Is it even worth trying to play a D Zone system?

Would simply sticking to a “play your position” sort of thing be easier?

If playing a system or scheme would be worth it, what would be best?

Our problem is largely D zone related. Turnovers, chasing the puck, collapsing in and lack of a solid break out. Our goaltending isn’t helping the cause but that’s another story. I thought the Box +1 approach would be ideal. It’s simple enough to understand, but implementing any sort of structure in beer league play is tough.

Anyway, wouldnto hear some thoughts from the coaches out there.

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

That's exactly the problem I'm having with my girls.  

The other issue is that the opposing team may play loose as well (their defensemen down by the slot) and then creates more confusion with the team, because they thought they had to stay in a certain zone, and don't know how to react when the other team does that.

[marka 526]

Howdy,

1 hour ago, JR Boucicaut said:

That's exactly the problem I'm having with my girls.  

The other issue is that the opposing team may play loose as well (their defensemen down by the slot) and then creates more confusion with the team, because they thought they had to stay in a certain zone, and don't know how to react when the other team does that.

If you're playing a box+1, what's the appropriate reaction when the other team's defensemen collapse down / pinch?

Mark

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

we try to keep the wingers up on the point and let the center work down low.  The guys that understand positioning better, when they play wing (weak side away from puck), will drop to the high slot and allow the center to double team the puck down low.

[10013005 30]

simple is good at the beer league level and the tips above are all helpful. for players who've never really paid attention to that side of the game, I'd suggest first getting a feel for what their current habits are before trying to get them to make conscious tactical changes.

1) be mindful of your check's body language - if you see his numbers, pressure him against the boards and try to take the puck away. if you see his crest, hold your ground and look to a) take away passing options to the middle of the slot and b) deter him/her against walking with the puck into the middle

2) be mindful of your stick position - if you can't physically get to your check, try to influence his play either up to the point or down to the corner by inviting that option with your stick and overall body language. either outcome is better than a pass to the slot, which you should be taking away with your skates and stick blade

3) be mindful of skate position - good offensive players either consciously or subconsciously try to manipulate defenders' feet in order to cross them up and open up space to attack the net. if your skating technique is already deficient (cant stop/turn/pivot in both directions) this is where you may run into problems. at the elite level, the best defenders react quickly, sprint to their check, and are able to keep their toes pointing at the check for as long as possible before having to stop or turn "on a dime" depending on how the play develops. if you turn away early because you don't trust your edges, you're very easy to beat with a shake on one side and a pass or carry to the opposite side.

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by 10013005

[psulion22 402]

In beer league, I think it's easiest to play a system by stressing concepts rather than strict adherence to a plan.  Get your players thinking about why you'd play the system instead of what to do in each situation.  Adults don't typically want to be told what to do, but they will try to try if you explain to them why they're doing it.

For example, instead of telling a wing, especially a weaker one, all of the things he would need to do in a box+1, get him to understand shooting lanes and the high danger areas of the ice.  Then just tell him to not let the defender get the puck through those areas, but he doesn't have to be right up on the guy or all the way down in the circle either.  He likely going to be out of position in relation to the overall system, but he may still be effective in keeping pucks from the point from getting through.  If you can get everyone on the ice to do their individual job at some level, even if it's not a fully functioning system, you'll have a lot more success.

[IPv6Freely 2094]

Interesting discussion in this thread! I'm not a defenceman and have always been blown away by how they play off each other the way they do. Sorry I obviously have nothing to add to the discussion but just wanted to mention that I find it fascinating. So, keep it coming :) 

[10013005 30]

3 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

Interesting discussion in this thread! I'm not a defenceman and have always been blown away by how they play off each other the way they do. Sorry I obviously have nothing to add to the discussion but just wanted to mention that I find it fascinating. So, keep it coming :) 

on a higher level, playing in D Zone Coverage is two distinct activities: 1) standing in the right spot in the hopes of intercepting a puck and starting a breakout, and 2) sprinting to the puck in order to recover it and start a breakout. some players will be better in one aspect or the other ,especially in beer league, so it’ll be important for teammates to be accomodating and understanding of that.

to make an NHL parallel, over the yrs #1 had been systematically overrated by coaches and scouts, so you ended up with a lot of 6’2 220lb+ guys who cant skate or make plays but who were good at standing in front of the net and crosschecking people. now teams see the value of having guys like spurgeon, keith, krug, werenski etc EVEN on the defensive side of the puck because they can win puck races and help the team attack down ice.

if you have guys like that on your team, be cognizant of that and dont be a dick if they screw up once in a while!

Edited March 13, 2018 by 10013005

[Playmakersedge 58]

I'm basing this off just being able to read you are talking about defense zone losing situation control and break out opportunities.  .... got a couple questions  : can your team afford extra ice time to practice  ? .Have the more experienced folks appose the less experienced; ALL in controlled walk threw pace . The more seasoned players are actually explaining how to defend them ..... Is there chalk talks happening?         Also  the center is he or she a stand then react player or a constant on the move?    Who is covering the hash marks to the corners ?   I have seen many times with beginning players or over anxious getting pulled into the corner you got two players there that leaves two passing options,  coughing it back to the other d behind the net or the center reading it and giving a pass option to being at the top of the circle.  The other wing digging and getting in a affective position  . The d that was covering  the net area hopefully read  the movement and is also digging  . Possible three on two   .       

 

But the typical with inexperienced players is you get three players from the hash to the corner probably pulled in by one opposing player maybe two . That gives you one d and one wing to cover three men .  Alot is on the free wing . If he or she is flat footed its going to be a cluster.  If a rover Great chance of grabbing a pass or preventing a scoring opportunity.   Try showing your team these situations.

[psulion22 402]

On 3/11/2018 at 10:33 AM, marka said:

Howdy,

If you're playing a box+1, what's the appropriate reaction when the other team's defensemen collapse down / pinch?

Mark

Assuming it vacates the point and leaves it empty, the pinch side wing should cut the corner off the box and come down towards the middle.  Box+1 is a zone defense so that wing doesn't necessarily have to stay on that point guy.  You want to squeeze out more of the middle passing lanes.  An extra guy down low isn't a big problem if you are still taking away those lanes.  The wing can't go too far from his area because he needs to be there in case the point gets replaced and to be in the right spot for the breakout.

[Santos L Halper 90]

20 hours ago, psulion22 said:

In beer league, I think it's easiest to play a system by stressing concepts rather than strict adherence to a plan.  Get your players thinking about why you'd play the system instead of what to do in each situation.  Adults don't typically want to be told what to do, but they will try to try if you explain to them why they're doing it.

For example, instead of telling a wing, especially a weaker one, all of the things he would need to do in a box+1, get him to understand shooting lanes and the high danger areas of the ice.  Then just tell him to not let the defender get the puck through those areas, but he doesn't have to be right up on the guy or all the way down in the circle either.  He likely going to be out of position in relation to the overall system, but he may still be effective in keeping pucks from the point from getting through.  If you can get everyone on the ice to do their individual job at some level, even if it's not a fully functioning system, you'll have a lot more success.

+ about a million.

We get too caught up with "systems"....and calling things like basic defensive zone coverage "systems"....and putting forth useless euphemisms such as "system hockey is winning hockey".  It's all a bunch of festering male bovine excrement - particularly in a beer league environment.

Honestly, if you don't have the time or resources to create AND EXECUTE a series of structured, progressive, scenario-based practice plans to teach a "system", then you're better off stressing general concepts.  Hopefully OP has some more experienced guys around that can first get on the same page with each other and THEN show the team things like, "hey, wings, when your side defenseman drops into the play, drop with him, but don't stray too far into the middle or we'll never be able to break the puck out."

[psulion22 402]

15 hours ago, 10013005 said:

on a higher level, playing in D Zone Coverage is two distinct activities: 1) standing in the right spot in the hopes of intercepting a puck and starting a breakout, and 2) sprinting to the puck in order to recover it and start a breakout. some players will be better in one aspect or the other ,especially in beer league, so it’ll be important for teammates to be accomodating and understanding of that.

to make an NHL parallel, over the yrs #1 had been systematically overrated by coaches and scouts, so you ended up with a lot of 6’2 220lb+ guys who cant skate or make plays but who were good at standing in front of the net and crosschecking people. now teams see the value of having guys like spurgeon, keith, krug, werenski etc EVEN on the defensive side of the puck because they can win puck races and help the team attack down ice.

if you have guys like that on your team, be cognizant of that and dont be a dick if they screw up once in a while!

Yep, they've mostly gone from a Box+1 passive system, like Tortorella used, to a sagging zone active pressure system that Quenville and Vigneault like.  The "Torts" system limited high danger chances at the expense of conceding low percentage shots and zone time.  But with the progression of advanced metrics, teams now play to Corsi/Fenwick and pressure the puck to get it out quickly and limit all shot attempts, at the expense of sometimes allowing higher percentage chances. 

The game has become about a defenseman's ability to quickly retrieve a puck, make a good decision, and either pass or skate the puck out of the zone.  Look at how Vegas drafted and the success they are having.  They over loaded on productive defensemen, and are one of the best teams because of it.  Nashville, San Jose, Tampa, Winnipeg, Boston - all teams with efficient defensemen that score points.  Pittsburgh (and Ottawa last year) is the exception because of the number of elite forwards they have that can change the Corsi, they play a more passive "Torts" type system.  Sullivan was Torts defensive assistant and adheres to that passive structure more than most other coaches.

[IPv6Freely 2094]

Can somebody give me the 101 on "Box+1"?

[marka 526]

Howdy,

Just now, IPv6Freely said:

Can somebody give me the 101 on "Box+1"?

https://weisstechhockey.com/team-hockey-systems/defensivezonecoverageboxplus1/

Mark

[IPv6Freely 2094]

2 minutes ago, marka said:

Howdy,

https://weisstechhockey.com/team-hockey-systems/defensivezonecoverageboxplus1/

Mark

Thanks!

[chippa13 1844]

Beer league should always keep it simple. The two D and center (or first guy back) handle down low and wings are responsible for the points. With the short benches and constant subs in and out of beer league teams you really can't adopt any actual system as the guys won't have enough familiarity with each other to execute.

[Santos L Halper 90]

18 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

Yep, they've mostly gone from a Box+1 passive system, like Tortorella used, to a sagging zone active pressure system that Quenville and Vigneault like.  The "Torts" system limited high danger chances at the expense of conceding low percentage shots and zone time.  But with the progression of advanced metrics, teams now play to Corsi/Fenwick and pressure the puck to get it out quickly and limit all shot attempts, at the expense of sometimes allowing higher percentage chances. 

The game has become about a defenseman's ability to quickly retrieve a puck, make a good decision, and either pass or skate the puck out of the zone.  Look at how Vegas drafted and the success they are having.  They over loaded on productive defensemen, and are one of the best teams because of it.  Nashville, San Jose, Tampa, Winnipeg, Boston - all teams with efficient defensemen that score points.  Pittsburgh (and Ottawa last year) is the exception because of the number of elite forwards they have that can change the Corsi, they play a more passive "Torts" type system.  Sullivan was Torts defensive assistant and adheres to that passive structure more than most other coaches.

*nods*  Yep. 

The intelligent, good skating, puck moving defenseman has rapidly become arguably the most important human commodity in high-level hockey.  

[psulion22 402]

22 minutes ago, Santos L Halper said:

+ about a million.

We get too caught up with "systems"....and calling things like basic defensive zone coverage "systems"....and putting forth useless euphemisms such as "system hockey is winning hockey".  It's all a bunch of festering male bovine excrement - particularly in a beer league environment.

Honestly, if you don't have the time or resources to create AND EXECUTE a series of structured, progressive, scenario-based practice plans to teach a "system", then you're better off stressing general concepts.  Hopefully OP has some more experienced guys around that can first get on the same page with each other and THEN show the team things like, "hey, wings, when your side defenseman drops into the play, drop with him, but don't stray too far into the middle or we'll never be able to break the puck out."

And "hey, you don't have to be right up on those points.  They aren't going to hurt us from there if you just stay in the lane between them and the net.  Come a little deeper so their forwards can't get through the circles and you'll be able to get to pucks on the boards for the breakout easier."  (this also has the added benefit of getting the forwards lower so they don't fly the zone and end up at the far blue line before you can make the breakout pass)

It's incredible how trying to include a few smart, effective concepts will improve a beer league team.  We don't need full out systems because the other team ins't playing them either.  But a concept like center lane drive in all three zones will get players on the same page and make the team better, without worrying about forcing some strict plan that won't be consistent.

[chippa13 1844]

Not much more annoying that being at the point and the opposing forward just glues themselves to you.

[psulion22 402]

Sure, it's annoying as the point guy.  But I look at it and laugh because I'm like the least dangerous guy on the ice (especially as the RD in beer league when most guys are RH and throw the puck around the boards to their forehand, which is the other side).  If you want to stand next to me and do nothing and open up the middle of the zone, not be able to get the puck out on that side, and not keep with me if I decide to skate in for a quick pass to the high slot, then be my guest.  Being annoying to the point guy is probably the least effective thing to be doing.  I don't know of many times that guy has actually done anything to disrupt my play, being annoying aside.

[Santos L Halper 90]

1 hour ago, psulion22 said:

Sure, it's annoying as the point guy.  But I look at it and laugh because I'm like the least dangerous guy on the ice (especially as the RD in beer league when most guys are RH and throw the puck around the boards to their forehand, which is the other side).  If you want to stand next to me and do nothing and open up the middle of the zone, not be able to get the puck out on that side, and not keep with me if I decide to skate in for a quick pass to the high slot, then be my guest.  Being annoying to the point guy is probably the least effective thing to be doing.  I don't know of many times that guy has actually done anything to disrupt my play, being annoying aside.

Speaking as the LD, I love it when guys stand on top of me at the point. 

For the reasons you stated, the puck is on my side a lot, so I know that I'm going to be making that "pinch/no pinch" decision pretty regularly during a game.  If a wing spends his whole shift on top of me, I never have to worry about getting caught in that 'no man's land', where either decision seems wrong.  If goofy flypapers himself all over me, I almost always pinch and, even if I lose the race to the puck, I know it'll be close enough that (a) he won't be able to just chip it by me, and (b) I can always tie up the play along the wall and create a battle that my team stands a better than even chance of winning.  

Sure, I may not have as many opportunities to unleash a clapper from the point...but, I don't have as many opportunities to shatter a stick that *I* have to pay for, either...

[stick9 892]

Tons of good info, exactly what I was hoping for. Sounds like keeping it simple is the way to go.

Yes, we have some more experienced players who are able to point things out. Most of us know the basics of what we are supposed to do, it’s just doing it and not getting sucked in when the other team does something to counter it. Unfortunately no real time to work on things as a group. Most of skate other nights but not together.

I hear some of you talking about having the forward glued to you at the point. Being a forward, that something that’s always stressed to me, but that shot is such a low percentage play I often wonder how crucial it is. I’d almost rather play a little lower, just make sure I stay in that shooting lane.

Edited March 13, 2018 by stick9

[psulion22 402]

51 minutes ago, Santos L Halper said:

Speaking as the LD, I love it when guys stand on top of me at the point. 

For the reasons you stated, the puck is on my side a lot, so I know that I'm going to be making that "pinch/no pinch" decision pretty regularly during a game.  If a wing spends his whole shift on top of me, I never have to worry about getting caught in that 'no man's land', where either decision seems wrong.  If goofy flypapers himself all over me, I almost always pinch and, even if I lose the race to the puck, I know it'll be close enough that (a) he won't be able to just chip it by me, and (b) I can always tie up the play along the wall and create a battle that my team stands a better than even chance of winning.  

Sure, I may not have as many opportunities to unleash a clapper from the point...but, I don't have as many opportunities to shatter a stick that *I* have to pay for, either...

I love playing against one team in particular because they have a left handed defenseman that just hammers the puck around the boards along the ice every time he touches it, and a wing that stands 3 feet from me.  I creep to the middle of the ice to move the wing with me, then break to the boards as soon as the dman winds up.  Even if I'm going full speed towards the puck, and it takes some strange hop and gets past me, the guy covering me is trying so hard to get back on me that he can't get to the puck either.  It just goes down for an icing, or my d partner/goalie to get it and bring it back up.

[psulion22 402]

2 minutes ago, stick9 said:

Tons of good info, exactly what I was hoping for.

Yes, we have some more experienced players who are to point things out. Unfortunately no real time to work on things as a group. That said, sounds like the best approach is keep it simple.

I hear some of you talking about having the forward glued to you at the point. Being a forward, that something that’s always stressed to me, but that shot is such a low percentage play I often wonder how crucial it is. I’d almost rather play a little lower, just make sure I stay in that shooting lane.

The guys who have been playing a long time will tell you it's the most important thing.  It's not.  You're right, the stats make it an incredibly low percentage play.  The numbers I was given say that in the NHL, a shot that goes in clean from the point and boards accounts for 15% of all goals scored (and most of those are on highly screened shots).  85% of goals originate or are deflected in the small area in the middle of the ice usually called the "house".  In beer league, that Dman can hardly even get the shot on net, and there usually isn't a player providing a real screen (they're usually off to the side waving at the puck).  As a forward, you're typically better off playing lower in the zone, maybe at the top of the circle, to stop cross ice passes and controlled walk outs from the boards, and just stepping into the shooting lane if that Dman gets the puck.  It's interesting to see how many guys scream bloody murder to cover the points if that guy even touches the puck, but don't make a peep if the wing curls off the hash marks, walks to the middle, and scores.

[stick9 892]

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been screamed at for not being all over that point guy. Even had a center start charging out to him off draws cuz I wasn’t getting there fast enough. Of course he had no problem leaving his man down low to bang in rebounds.

I see how far off the wings play the points in the NHL. Looks like they are more concerned with the break out than trying to block point shots.