Different curves on high and low end sticks with same pattern?

[ParabolicActivity 48]

A follow Redditor and I were talking about P38 curves when we realized we had both noticed that the lower end P38 and the higher end P38 are different. Has anyone else noticed this type of thing? How does this happen?

[bunnyman666 445]

1 hour ago, ParabolicActivity said:

A follow Redditor and I were talking about P38 curves when we realized we had both noticed that the lower end P38 and the higher end P38 are different. Has anyone else noticed this type of thing? How does this happen?

My guess is that the lower end sticks may come from a different factory or the curves on the lower-end sticks may be dumbed down. This is only a guess...

[start_today 757]

How is a curve "dumbed down?" 

[puckpilot 312]

How are you making the comparison? Is it with in-hand sticks or from photos? My guess would be factory error or an optical illusion in a photo. 

[Siponarius 16]

I am the fellow Redditor. I was making the comparison with in hand sticks. 

I was holding my 47k Ribcor, comparing it to a Ribcor “Rib Pro”SMU from Canadian Tire in Canada (the stick even still had the ribs, but had an updated graphics wrap).

i even compared the Ribcor SMU to a Warrior SMU with a Karlson, and it wasn’t the same either. 

[bunnyman666 445]

7 hours ago, start_today said:

How is a curve "dumbed down?" 

Simplified with less detail.

[start_today 757]

I know what dumbed down means, but if you simplify a curve, it becomes another curve all together. A p40 is a dumbed down p30. Take away enough of the curves and twists of a 28 and you end up with a pm9.  

Id assume this is just poor quality control, especially if you're seeing it on SMU sticks. 

[bunnyman666 445]

11 minutes ago, start_today said:

I know what dumbed down means, but if you simplify a curve, it becomes another curve all together. A p40 is a dumbed down p30. Take away enough of the curves and twists of a 28 and you end up with a pm9.  

Id assume this is just poor quality control, especially if you're seeing it on SMU sticks. 

Most likely poor (more likely cheap) mould making when you get right down to it, and with a lower-end stick, all cost-cutting measures are on the table including finding the cheapest contractor. I could hear the conversation: “Just get it close enough. We need this done cheaply. Don’t spend any more time or money than necessary on the mould!”

 Yes- I agree that it becomes another curve when it is “dumbed down”.  I remember seeing what was supposed to be Ovechkin’s curve and one particular stick’s blade barely resembled it.

The original moulds are bladder moulds, costing thousands of dollars made of CNC’d stainless steel with the accuracy of laser scanning and measuring; the others are most likely made of chopped fibre and resin using a plug and are at the mercy of the person making the mould, costing hundreds of dollars at the most. You can make a very accurate mould with chopped fibre and resin, but you can make one with a few tolerance issues, as well. 

Of course I am old enough that we could still buy neutral sticks and make our own curves with water, blow torches and doors. I never could make the same one twice LOL

[start_today 757]

Yeah, I was thinking that we've come full circle on sticks. One of the big selling points of composites has been that you get a consistent flex and curve from stick to stick, whereas wood had a bigger margin for error, and it wasn't always the same.

Now, race to the bottom pricing and profit is sacrificing that consistency. 

[bunnyman666 445]

14 minutes ago, start_today said:

Yeah, I was thinking that we've come full circle on sticks. One of the big selling points of composites has been that you get a consistent flex and curve from stick to stick, whereas wood had a bigger margin for error, and it wasn't always the same.

Now, race to the bottom pricing and profit is sacrificing that consistency. 

No kidding! 

People forget that the standard of living goes down with the eternal quest for the lowest price! Oh well- I am on a tangent here...

The curves may be consistent on the lower end; they are consistent with whatever the mould maker made! I forgot to add that some twists and turns can be impossible with a chopped fibre mould without it costing more to produce (both the mould and the labour/expertise to make it).  You can make a chopped fibre/resin mould quite detailed, but it takes time to finesse it and making all of the splashes to compare with the original takes time and money. As I say- once that perfect part comes from the mould without much finish work, the hardest part has been done!

When I produced composite bicycle parts and frames, I first used chopped fibre and resin moulds, then fabric and resin moulds. Some fine details could not be done and some sharp corners were impossible. I never got to see what it was like to build with a detailed stainless steel mould ☹️ I am certain it would have changed my life...

[Siponarius 16]

Well it’s kind of odd, considering the 47 and the SMU are the same price not on sale. 

I wouldn’t put it past a manufacturer to take a wad of left over production sticks from the older 28k/30k/40k era, and just slap new graphics on it and try to sell it as a certain thing. 

[GoalForFun 169]

Could it also be the material? Maybe the cheaper sticks are using cheaper material that doesn’t retain its intended blade curve? I remember way back in the day you could flex one of those low-end Nike Bauer Vapor V2 sticks enough that it would stay slightly flexed until you flexed it the opposite way to literally bend it back.

[bunnyman666 445]

6 minutes ago, GoalForFun said:

Could it also be the material? Maybe the cheaper sticks are using cheaper material that doesn’t retain its intended blade curve? I remember way back in the day you could flex one of those low-end Nike Bauer Vapor V2 sticks enough that it would stay slightly flexed until you flexed it the opposite way to literally bend it back.

That is scary! 

From my experience with composites, that would indicate something not quite right with the cure of the resin. The one thing about epoxy or even poly resin is the plastic qualities of cured resin when reinforced with fibres, whether they are carbon, glass or aramid.

If the material is laid up and cured correctly, it should take the shape of the mould and retain its shape after cure. I would say it’s the quality of the mould itself, rather than the materials. 

[ParabolicActivity 48]

The weird thing we both realized is that the cheaper model P38 has a bit more abrupt hook. It seems to have more hook overall and some extra little bend near the toe. It is subtle but very real. So it isn't an issue of less curve, it is more.

[bunnyman666 445]

19 minutes ago, ParabolicActivity said:

The weird thing we both realized is that the cheaper model P38 has a bit more abrupt hook. It seems to have more hook overall and some extra little bend near the toe. It is subtle but very real. So it isn't an issue of less curve, it is more.

Again- the function of a poorly made mould or more likely- renaming an old mould as the “desired” curve.

[Vet88 673]

7 hours ago, ParabolicActivity said:

The weird thing we both realized is that the cheaper model P38 has a bit more abrupt hook. It seems to have more hook overall and some extra little bend near the toe. It is subtle but very real. So it isn't an issue of less curve, it is more.

I suspect its because they are from different manufacturers. Each has their own mould of the curve and these are the subtle differences you can see.