replacement tounges?

[JONES199 6]

replacement tounges advice - the kid has lace bite on fairly new skates (6 months old), tried all the gel pads and inserts and switched out the laces to non-waxed is the next thing to try is new thicker tounges? 

[Giltis 116]

That's what I would do, as well as lace the skates outside in rather than inside out.

[JONES199 6]

Thanks already switched the lace pattern as well.

 

[Vet88 674]

On 2/5/2019 at 11:19 AM, JONES199 said:

replacement tounges advice - the kid has lace bite on fairly new skates (6 months old), tried all the gel pads and inserts and switched out the laces to non-waxed is the next thing to try is new thicker tounges? 

Short term the answer is no, long term the answer is maybe. think about it. Lace bite is inflammation of the tendon, it is micro damage of the tendon caused by the pressure of the laces and when the body cannot heal the damage quick enough inflammation and pain occur, ergo lace bite. Is a thicker tongue going to give more space and reduce the pressure on the tendon? This is also why gel pads generally don't work, do they reduce or increase the pressure on the tendon?

So whist he has lace bite then a thicker tongue generally isn't the answer on it's own. If he is going to rest until the tendon has healed then a thicker tongue "may" be enough to slow down the micro damage allowing the body to heal between skates and not have lace bite appear.

These are the guaranteed ways to stop lace bite that I know of. 1: Buy a boot that has enough volume. Hard to do in a retail skate that will also fit well everywhere else so you then have to consider the custom route. 2: Forsberg pads, make your own out of 1/2" pipe insulation. They work but the hassle is you have to tape them onto your ankle every time you skate. Note - gel pads that attach to the tongue and have a deep enough channel will also work but getting them fixed correctly in place on the tongue and making sure they stay there and that the tongue doesn't move is a hard ask. 3: Eyelet extenders, either buy them or make your own out of 5mm leather. 4: Option B laces, they work because they spread the pressure of the lace over a greater area but generally players will not wear them because of their appearance. 5: Don't lace up the last 3 or 4 eyelets or go lace free (this is what I do). 6: Stop skating.......

Anything else is just window dressing the problem, yes this is a poke at those who think changing your lacing pattern is the fix. You MUST get the pressure off the tendon, end of story.

[Sniper9 529]

3 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Short term the answer is no, long term the answer is maybe. think about it. Lace bite is inflammation of the tendon, it is micro damage of the tendon caused by the pressure of the laces and when the body cannot heal the damage quick enough inflammation and pain occur, ergo lace bite. Is a thicker tongue going to give more space and reduce the pressure on the tendon? This is also why gel pads generally don't work, do they reduce or increase the pressure on the tendon?

So whist he has lace bite then a thicker tongue generally isn't the answer on it's own. If he is going to rest until the tendon has healed then a thicker tongue "may" be enough to slow down the micro damage allowing the body to heal between skates and not have lace bite appear.

These are the guaranteed ways to stop lace bite that I know of. 1: Buy a boot that has enough volume. Hard to do in a retail skate that will also fit well everywhere else so you then have to consider the custom route. 2: Forsberg pads, make your own out of 1/2" pipe insulation. They work but the hassle is you have to tape them onto your ankle every time you skate. Note - gel pads that attach to the tongue and have a deep enough channel will also work but getting them fixed correctly in place on the tongue and making sure they stay there and that the tongue doesn't move is a hard ask. 3: Eyelet extenders, either buy them or make your own out of 5mm leather. 4: Option B laces, they work because they spread the pressure of the lace over a greater area but generally players will not wear them because of their appearance. 5: Don't lace up the last 3 or 4 eyelets or go lace free (this is what I do). 6: Stop skating.......

Anything else is just window dressing the problem, yes this is a poke at those who think changing your lacing pattern is the fix. You MUST get the pressure off the tendon, end of story.

How do you go lace free? Velcro?

[Vet88 674]

5 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

How do you go lace free? Velcro?

You mean so the skates stay on your feet? If they fit well enough they will stay on,if they are falling off as you stride then the fit is poor (and this is one of the reasons why I always asked players to pull the laces out of the boots when trying them on for fit) and or your stride technique isn't the best. If they aren't staying on, leave the laces in up till the 3rd or 4th eyelet down but untied. They will naturally hold the tongue in place which will keep the skates on your feet. However the difference between skating with a tongue siting on the top of your foot held in place by untied laces and skating with no laces is night and day. Note though, hard acceleration forward and backward will generally cause the heel to lift until your skating style adapts and you become more neutrally balanced.

There is no reason why you couldn't use velcro, it's just that I have never had the need to even when I train in skates that are 2 sizes too big for me.I suppose if you were to use velcro then the bottom of the heel or under the sides of the ankle would be the logical place.

[Vet88 674]

and whenever someone says to me you can't skate lace free, I show them this - and no it's not me although in a few more years I will have about the same hairline lol, I wish my edges were this deep, just not quite there yet. aka Darryl Evans.

[JONES199 6]

We took him to the Bauer store and had the 3D scan done over the weekend, while the skates are not custom they are the ones that they would sell him off the shelf.

[Vet88 674]

So the ones he is wearing are the ones the 3D scan suggested?

[Sniper9 529]

On 2/5/2019 at 11:17 PM, Vet88 said:

You mean so the skates stay on your feet? If they fit well enough they will stay on,if they are falling off as you stride then the fit is poor (and this is one of the reasons why I always asked players to pull the laces out of the boots when trying them on for fit) and or your stride technique isn't the best. If they aren't staying on, leave the laces in up till the 3rd or 4th eyelet down but untied. They will naturally hold the tongue in place which will keep the skates on your feet. However the difference between skating with a tongue siting on the top of your foot held in place by untied laces and skating with no laces is night and day. Note though, hard acceleration forward and backward will generally cause the heel to lift until your skating style adapts and you become more neutrally balanced.

There is no reason why you couldn't use velcro, it's just that I have never had the need to even when I train in skates that are 2 sizes too big for me.I suppose if you were to use velcro then the bottom of the heel or under the sides of the ankle would be the logical place.

This is the first time I've heard of skating lace free, so you obviously know more about this than I do.

Is this something that you CAN do as opposed to SHOULD do? Or is this something used as a training tool more than anything? I can't imagine anyone doing this at all in any kind of game setting. 

[SirJW 207]

On 2/5/2019 at 11:24 PM, Vet88 said:

and whenever someone says to me you can't skate lace free, I show them this - and no it's not me although in a few more years I will have about the same hairline lol, I wish my edges were this deep, just not quite there yet. aka Darryl Evans.

This is Daryl Evans of the LA Kings, former player and current color guy on the radio side. He's also an ambassador for the LA Kings training center.

I've participated in clinics he has taught and yes this is the way he skates all the time when he coaches. 

[akjchu 2]

17 minutes ago, SirJW said:

This is Daryl Evans of the LA Kings, former player and current color guy on the radio side. He's also an ambassador for the LA Kings training center.

I've participated in clinics he has taught and yes this is the way he skates all the time when he coaches. 

My sister did a clinic with him too.  She asked if he had some trick or elastic helping keep them off and he flicked his foot and kicked his skate off. 

I've skated untied and completely loose and it really doesn't feel bad or difficult but I would never try and compete like that. 

[Vet88 674]

On 2/11/2019 at 4:23 AM, Sniper9 said:

This is the first time I've heard of skating lace free, so you obviously know more about this than I do.

Is this something that you CAN do as opposed to SHOULD do? Or is this something used as a training tool more than anything? I can't imagine anyone doing this at all in any kind of game setting. 

There isn't any way I can answer this fully in a short sentence or 2 so my apologies for the following post but I want to give you as much background that I think is relevant about this.

It's something you CAN and SHOULD do but like anything in life, it's a matter of degrees. 

If you just want to be a weekend warrior and turn up and play a game or two then I'd say going lace free isn't for you. Be it work, cost or whatever reason that limits you to the occasional skate per week, it's not that you couldn't do it but the time you need to put in to get the results isn't available to you. Instead buy the best skates you can afford, lace up and go play and enjoy yourself.

That's the paradox going on today: current skates will make you skate better but they will not "teach" you to skate better.

If you want to be the best skater you possibly can be and you have time to train / skate then going lace free is one of the best, if not the best, training tool you will ever use. Why? Because quite simply there is no hiding any technical issues when you skate lace free. In today's ultra stiff boots, you have very little feeling and response coming from your feet once the boot is laced up. Ergo poor technique is just reinforced because there are no penalties as you skate (other than the blue line rising up and causing you to fall every now and then), you just don't realize you are doing it. And a coach could yell at you till they are blue in the face but if you don't feel it or understand what is going on under your feet, you are never going to get it. Skate lace free and you feel everything: you falling off the edge, how deep or shallow the edge is, where the center point of the blade is under your feet, how a subtle weight shift changes the pressures in your feet as you put more weight into the heel. Every single little nuance that effects how you skate feeds up into the brain and from this your muscle memory can be properly built. We are designed to do everything as energy efficient as we possibly can and when your brain realizes your feet are falling inwards on you as you accelerate or turn then it sets about trying to do it as efficiently as possible. Now leg and body alignment start to come into play as your brain attempts to get everything in a straight line from the blade at the bottom of your feet to the top of your head. Once your alignment issues start to get sorted and your base muscle memory gets established, you can then start working on power, edge transitions and speed. 

Is it for everyone? Again that's an answer with degrees. I've trained skaters who have near enough natural perfect alignment, they don't get a lot out of it and it's more about fine tuning and tweaks. But these skaters are 1 in 1000, the other 999 all need help.

Are you one of the 999? It's easy enough to work out, undo your laces and just go for a gentle skate around the rink. ANYONE CAN DO THIS. If you feel unstable or unbalanced and or feel your feet falling inwards as you accelerate or cross over or turn then yes, you will benefit from skating lace free. How much you improve from this point can only be determined by you and the time and effort you put in.And if you do start, I wouldn't ask you to go lace free straight away. Drop one eyelet, tie your laces and skate. Keep dropping eyelets until it becomes uncomfortable. Stop there and practice like this for a few months then as you start to get used to it, drop another eyelet. Keep going until eventually you can take your laces out, that is if you want to go that far. A lot of players will just take the first 4 eyelets out and skate with laces as loose as they can.

Is it for use in games? Simple answer is no but the work you put in skating lace free will improve your skating ability and this will flow thru when you lace up. And lets be really clear about one thing: lacing up will make you skate better, faster, sharper etc.

Is it proven? Go ask the Soviets and other European countries who have used it for years. Ask just about any pro and they will have either used it or heard about it, whether or not they used it is generally dependent on the coaching systems they were in. A friend of mine was in Prague a while ago for the worlds figure champs, he wandered next door one morning (to a 2 rink complex) and watched the Czech and Finnish national teams (who were in town for a iihf tournament) run through their 2 hour morning practice with every player on the ice skating laces undone. At a training session I ran last year one of the attendees was an ex russian player plus his son. His son is 8 years old, has been skating since he was 2 and has never worn laces for training. His skating ability was off the chart.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Vet88

[JONES199 6]

On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 5:32 PM, Vet88 said:

So the ones he is wearing are the ones the 3D scan suggested?

Yes - he is in exactly what the scan recommends.

[Vet88 674]

7 hours ago, JONES199 said:

Yes - he is in exactly what the scan recommends.

Does he fail the pencil test across the 3 and 4th eyelets?  

[JONES199 6]

A tiny gap on one foot just touches on the other.

[Vet88 674]

7 hours ago, JONES199 said:

A tiny gap on one foot just touches on the other.

Hmm, he should be alright with that but maybe the tongue just doesn't suit him. A thinner tongue may work but if he wants to keep skating for now you need to ease the pressure on the tendon. I'd make him a forsberg pad for each foot (pm me if you don't know how) and get him to wear them for the next 6 weeks. that should give the tendon time to heal. In the meantime consider changing the tongue and or buying eyelet extenders. These are your simplest, get a result options that will also allow him to continue to skate.

[jdsmn21 0]

13 hours ago, JONES199 said:

A tiny gap on one foot just touches on the other.

Do your kids Bauer's have that stupid plastic metatarsal guard strip running up the tongue?

I ask because I have pain on the top of my foot with my new Bauer's - not lace bite at the ankle; I think my problem is directly due to pressure from that plastic strip in the tongue.

I haven't got brave enough to do surgery to my new skates yet though.

[JONES199 6]

2 hours ago, jdsmn21 said:

Do your kids Bauer's have that stupid plastic metatarsal guard strip running up the tongue?

I ask because I have pain on the top of my foot with my new Bauer's - not lace bite at the ankle; I think my problem is directly due to pressure from that plastic strip in the tongue.

I haven't got brave enough to do surgery to my new skates yet though.

He does but he has always had them, always been in supremes.  He switches them out as soon as they "break" or "fold".

[NiCnoK 61]

On 2/11/2019 at 4:55 AM, Vet88 said:

There isn't any way I can answer this fully in a short sentence or 2 so my apologies for the following post but I want to give you as much background that I think is relevant about this.

It's something you CAN and SHOULD do but like anything in life, it's a matter of degrees. 

If you just want to be a weekend warrior and turn up and play a game or two then I'd say going lace free isn't for you. Be it work, cost or whatever reason that limits you to the occasional skate per week, it's not that you couldn't do it but the time you need to put in to get the results isn't available to you. Instead buy the best skates you can afford, lace up and go play and enjoy yourself.

That's the paradox going on today: current skates will make you skate better but they will not "teach" you to skate better.

If you want to be the best skater you possibly can be and you have time to train / skate then going lace free is one of the best, if not the best, training tool you will ever use. Why? Because quite simply there is no hiding any technical issues when you skate lace free. In today's ultra stiff boots, you have very little feeling and response coming from your feet once the boot is laced up. Ergo poor technique is just reinforced because there are no penalties as you skate (other than the blue line rising up and causing you to fall every now and then), you just don't realize you are doing it. And a coach could yell at you till they are blue in the face but if you don't feel it or understand what is going on under your feet, you are never going to get it. Skate lace free and you feel everything: you falling off the edge, how deep or shallow the edge is, where the center point of the blade is under your feet, how a subtle weight shift changes the pressures in your feet as you put more weight into the heel. Every single little nuance that effects how you skate feeds up into the brain and from this your muscle memory can be properly built. We are designed to do everything as energy efficient as we possibly can and when your brain realizes your feet are falling inwards on you as you accelerate or turn then it sets about trying to do it as efficiently as possible. Now leg and body alignment start to come into play as your brain attempts to get everything in a straight line from the blade at the bottom of your feet to the top of your head. Once your alignment issues start to get sorted and your base muscle memory gets established, you can then start working on power, edge transitions and speed. 

Is it for everyone? Again that's an answer with degrees. I've trained skaters who have near enough natural perfect alignment, they don't get a lot out of it and it's more about fine tuning and tweaks. But these skaters are 1 in 1000, the other 999 all need help.

Are you one of the 999? It's easy enough to work out, undo your laces and just go for a gentle skate around the rink. ANYONE CAN DO THIS. If you feel unstable or unbalanced and or feel your feet falling inwards as you accelerate or cross over or turn then yes, you will benefit from skating lace free. How much you improve from this point can only be determined by you and the time and effort you put in.And if you do start, I wouldn't ask you to go lace free straight away. Drop one eyelet, tie your laces and skate. Keep dropping eyelets until it becomes uncomfortable. Stop there and practice like this for a few months then as you start to get used to it, drop another eyelet. Keep going until eventually you can take your laces out, that is if you want to go that far. A lot of players will just take the first 4 eyelets out and skate with laces as loose as they can.

Is it for use in games? Simple answer is no but the work you put in skating lace free will improve your skating ability and this will flow thru when you lace up. And lets be really clear about one thing: lacing up will make you skate better, faster, sharper etc.

Is it proven? Go ask the Soviets and other European countries who have used it for years. Ask just about any pro and they will have either used it or heard about it, whether or not they used it is generally dependent on the coaching systems they were in. A friend of mine was in Prague a while ago for the worlds figure champs, he wandered next door one morning (to a 2 rink complex) and watched the Czech and Finnish national teams (who were in town for a iihf tournament) run through their 2 hour morning practice with every player on the ice skating laces undone. At a training session I ran last year one of the attendees was an ex russian player plus his son. His son is 8 years old, has been skating since he was 2 and has never worn laces for training. His skating ability was off the chart.

Good lord, man, this is truly something to think about. Thanks.

[JONES199 6]

13 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Hmm, he should be alright with that but maybe the tongue just doesn't suit him. A thinner tongue may work but if he wants to keep skating for now you need to ease the pressure on the tendon. I'd make him a forsberg pad for each foot (pm me if you don't know how) and get him to wear them for the next 6 weeks. that should give the tendon time to heal. In the meantime consider changing the tongue and or buying eyelet extenders. These are your simplest, get a result options that will also allow him to continue to skate.

I will PM.  I'm not sure what eyelet extenders are but the skates have the plastic extension pieces rather than traditional eyelets.

[Larry54 243]

On 2/11/2019 at 4:55 AM, Vet88 said:

There isn't any way I can answer this fully in a short sentence or 2 so my apologies for the following post but I want to give you as much background that I think is relevant about this.

It's something you CAN and SHOULD do but like anything in life, it's a matter of degrees. 

If you just want to be a weekend warrior and turn up and play a game or two then I'd say going lace free isn't for you. Be it work, cost or whatever reason that limits you to the occasional skate per week, it's not that you couldn't do it but the time you need to put in to get the results isn't available to you. Instead buy the best skates you can afford, lace up and go play and enjoy yourself.

That's the paradox going on today: current skates will make you skate better but they will not "teach" you to skate better.

If you want to be the best skater you possibly can be and you have time to train / skate then going lace free is one of the best, if not the best, training tool you will ever use. Why? Because quite simply there is no hiding any technical issues when you skate lace free. In today's ultra stiff boots, you have very little feeling and response coming from your feet once the boot is laced up. Ergo poor technique is just reinforced because there are no penalties as you skate (other than the blue line rising up and causing you to fall every now and then), you just don't realize you are doing it. And a coach could yell at you till they are blue in the face but if you don't feel it or understand what is going on under your feet, you are never going to get it. Skate lace free and you feel everything: you falling off the edge, how deep or shallow the edge is, where the center point of the blade is under your feet, how a subtle weight shift changes the pressures in your feet as you put more weight into the heel. Every single little nuance that effects how you skate feeds up into the brain and from this your muscle memory can be properly built. We are designed to do everything as energy efficient as we possibly can and when your brain realizes your feet are falling inwards on you as you accelerate or turn then it sets about trying to do it as efficiently as possible. Now leg and body alignment start to come into play as your brain attempts to get everything in a straight line from the blade at the bottom of your feet to the top of your head. Once your alignment issues start to get sorted and your base muscle memory gets established, you can then start working on power, edge transitions and speed. 

Is it for everyone? Again that's an answer with degrees. I've trained skaters who have near enough natural perfect alignment, they don't get a lot out of it and it's more about fine tuning and tweaks. But these skaters are 1 in 1000, the other 999 all need help.

Are you one of the 999? It's easy enough to work out, undo your laces and just go for a gentle skate around the rink. ANYONE CAN DO THIS. If you feel unstable or unbalanced and or feel your feet falling inwards as you accelerate or cross over or turn then yes, you will benefit from skating lace free. How much you improve from this point can only be determined by you and the time and effort you put in.And if you do start, I wouldn't ask you to go lace free straight away. Drop one eyelet, tie your laces and skate. Keep dropping eyelets until it becomes uncomfortable. Stop there and practice like this for a few months then as you start to get used to it, drop another eyelet. Keep going until eventually you can take your laces out, that is if you want to go that far. A lot of players will just take the first 4 eyelets out and skate with laces as loose as they can.

Is it for use in games? Simple answer is no but the work you put in skating lace free will improve your skating ability and this will flow thru when you lace up. And lets be really clear about one thing: lacing up will make you skate better, faster, sharper etc.

Is it proven? Go ask the Soviets and other European countries who have used it for years. Ask just about any pro and they will have either used it or heard about it, whether or not they used it is generally dependent on the coaching systems they were in. A friend of mine was in Prague a while ago for the worlds figure champs, he wandered next door one morning (to a 2 rink complex) and watched the Czech and Finnish national teams (who were in town for a iihf tournament) run through their 2 hour morning practice with every player on the ice skating laces undone. At a training session I ran last year one of the attendees was an ex russian player plus his son. His son is 8 years old, has been skating since he was 2 and has never worn laces for training. His skating ability was off the chart.

Out of curiosity, I've done loose untied laces a couple of times for the first half hour at open practice. It was a real eye opener, to say the least. The mechanics of skating became so much clearer. At my age, only a couple half-hour stints of laceless skating won't turn me into a Paul Coffey, but I truly believe I benefited from the learning experience and will be doing it every opportunity I get.

And as a by-product, even though I only skip the top eyelet when playing, I don't tie my skates as tightly as I used to. I used to occasionally be distracted by lack of forward flex while playing but now I'm not even preoccupied with my skating.