Red Dog Hockey Boost

[SILVER82 8]

This comes from the VH topic.  I had never heard of red dog hockey boost before so I thought I would check it out.  here is the website

https://reddoghockey.com/reddog-hockey-boost.html

Could be argued that this is one of the worst sites out there, ( i don't mean to hurt anyones feelings).  After scanning the page I couldnt really tell what the product was.  

Anyone try it?  is it just some shims? the video says its a 5 min installation, if thats the case and it is just shims then they would have to be internal and wouldn't that change the internal volume?   

 

[BenBreeg 493]

Yeah, the site is brutal.  Tried watching the demo but unless they showed something at the end it said absolutely nothing, couldn’t finish it.  Guess you just have to know what it is...

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

The site will be redone.  I do the tests  in Toronto now.  There are 2 different ways it's now done. 

 

Here is a  better updated explanation and name as it's now being used for all sports with footwear.  Golf, Track, Football ETC..  

Sport Stability Systems of “Reddog Hockey” founder Patrick Kelly

 

After following in the footsteps of his father “Red” and playing on an elite track in hockey, Kelly discovered his gift of speed.  While playing USports (formerly CIS) hockey for McGill University and studying aeronautical engineering, Kelly decided to make the switch to speed skating, eventually competing in thirteen national championships, four world championships and two Olympics, with best race finishes of 1st, 4th and 6th respectively.  It was during the preparation time honing his skating

technique and skates, that Kelly began to find unique solutions to stability issues: issues that are also found in the field of aeronautics where Kelly had worked as an engineer on advanced missile systems of the US military.  Following the end of his elite competition and being highly proficient and knowledgeable on all forms of skating, Kelly stayed in elite skating sports by working with NHL players, elite speed skaters, and figure skaters.  After witnessing the instability of almost all his clients, Kelly realized that these sports needed a systematic method of reducing the instability. 

After more than ten years of R & D, Kelly had developed this method. 

While working with the Montreal Canadiens Hockey Club as its skating consultant, Kelly was able to prove the applicability and worth of the

method by having NHL players use it successfully.  Now the method has been refined and brings even more stability, with over 50 NHL players

benefiting this year, including players like Jeff Skinner, James Van  Riemsdyk, Zach Parise, Auston Matthews, Max Pacioretty, and Paul Stastny.

 

 

 

 

[VegasHockey 1280]

I still don't understand what it is though....

[VegasHockey 1280]

5 hours ago, SILVER82 said:

This comes from the VH topic.  I had never heard of red dog hockey boost before so I thought I would check it out.  here is the website

https://reddoghockey.com/reddog-hockey-boost.html

Could be argued that this is one of the worst sites out there, ( i don't mean to hurt anyones feelings).  After scanning the page I couldnt really tell what the product was.  

Anyone try it?  is it just some shims? the video says its a 5 min installation, if thats the case and it is just shims then they would have to be internal and wouldn't that change the internal volume?   

 

I almost feel like the video on the page was a parody. Something Charlie from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia would record. 😉

[jmiro 55]

Looks like a pack of partial insoles? With varying thickness I would guess.  Same function as shims? With a less permanent application making them easier for the end user to adjust?  Would that present a problem with fitment of the boot and even heel lock?  More questions than answers.

Edited June 30, 2019 by jmiro

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Fire away. 

The website is being redone as we speak.

If you look at Mathews skates in some pictures you can see the "boosts" 

Below is Mark Jankowsky  of the Calgary Flames. The first portion that is done is a jump test. The test tells where you take off and land and the differences between legs. Next is an on ice assessment.  After that the boot is measured and all data goes into a program that has been designed over the last 15 years. 

After the "Boosts" are added mainly on the exterior between holder and boot. 

Some may go inside but depends on player preference.  

Mr. Kelly as noted above an extensive skating history as well as an impressive Engineering background.  

Every single NHL player and for that matter any player I have worked with in the last year swears by it. 

If I can't answer the question I will get Mr. Kelly to reply. 

[Vet88 674]

1 hour ago, Nicholas G said:

I still don't understand what it is though....

I believe it's a series of cupped heel wedges (think the heel section of a superfoot) at different angles. So it tries to reshape the ankle (particularly the subtalar joint) to give you a better bio mechanical alignment. So it's like shimming the outside of the skate but you can do it internally with a removable piece.

Personally I don't agree with this approach, bio mechanical alignment is a lot more complex than a reshaped ankle, the whole leg is involved and often the back. Whilst it does alter the biomechanical alignment and can help, it impacts on how the skater can get onto their outside edge and it throws the knee outwards which can lead to additional stresses thru the knee ie long term ligament issues. Note - I have no clinical research to support this statement but we did model it with alignment testing as part of the ongoing research thesis I'm involved in and all the orthopedic consultants agreed that, for ice hockey and anything more than a very very mild adjustment, it was not an ideal solution. 

Note, if it's a raised heel lift with different heights then this is different to a side to side angular heel lift trying to fix things like pronation etc.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Vet88

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

2 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

I believe it's a series of cupped heel wedges (think the heel section of a superfoot) at different angles. So it tries to reshape the ankle (particularly the subtalar joint) to give you a better bio mechanical alignment. So it's like shimming the outside of the skate but you can do it internally with a removable piece.

Personally I don't agree with this approach, bio mechanical alignment is a lot more complex than a reshaped ankle, the whole leg is involved and often the back. Whilst it does alter the biomechanical alignment and can help, it impacts on how the skater can get onto their outside edge and it throws the knee outwards which can lead to additional stresses thru the knee ie long term ligament issues. Note - I have no clinical research to support this statement but we did model it with alignment testing as part of the ongoing research thesis I'm involved in and all the orthopedic consultants agreed that, for ice hockey and anything more than a very very mild adjustment, it was not an ideal solution. 

You are incorrect.  All adjustments are mild and no heel cupping is involved. 

Also all blades are realigned for each skaters personal needs. 

However I will forward thos and get you the exact clinical reply. 

And also as indicated on the webpage one of the main reasons is to set the player up for less injuries. 

That and to enhance performance. 

Its had over a year of proven success at the highest level with less injuries and improved performance from the majority of the 50 plus players using the system. Including my own son. 

[Vet88 674]

6 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

However I will forward thos and get you the exact clinical reply. 

Thanks, it would be nice to see the research behind it.

It's not an invalid approach, shim the boot and or move the holder, figure skaters have done it for years but ice hockey have buried their heads in the sand about this. If RDH are providing a solution for hockey players then that can only be for the good. For established and professional players an alignment adjustment can make a significant difference immediately and as they have to skate at their best every day, anything else can be a threat to their earning potential. This is why the research we are doing isn't really positioned towards established players but at developing skaters with bio mechanical issues and how learning to skate without laces can significantly address these issues for the long term beneficial health and performance of the skater. 

[BenBreeg 493]

So is it something only applicable and available to high level pros given the analysis needed to determine the parameters for the “shims”?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

1 hour ago, BenBreeg said:

So is it something only applicable and available to high level pros given the analysis needed to determine the parameters for the “shims”?

Right now the coat of the full service prohibits most from getting it done. However we have come up with a less expensive version. That can be done for everyone.  

 

 

[the_game 452]

Was just watching and looking at close up pics of Crosby, looks like he shims the front of his holder and the back end is sightly offset. 

Would this set up mimick something like that? From the website it does look like there is a shim that you attach to the bottom of your insole?

[stick9 890]

11 hours ago, Nicholas G said:

I almost feel like the video on the page was a parody. Something Charlie from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia would record. 😉

Complete with white gloves and skate lace shin wraps...good Lord. 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

48 minutes ago, the_game said:

Was just watching and looking at close up pics of Crosby, looks like he shims the front of his holder and the back end is sightly offset. 

Would this set up mimick something like that? From the website it does look like there is a shim that you attach to the bottom of your insole?

Anything he has is not Sports Stability Systems.  However he has an appt hooked. 

[the_game 452]

3 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Right now the coat of the full service prohibits most from getting it done. However we have come up with a less expensive version. That can be done for everyone.  

 

 

Is there an ETA for a retail/cheaper option?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

24 minutes ago, the_game said:

Is there an ETA for a retail/cheaper option?

Its available now but only at my shop. Or in Lake Placid at Mr. Kelly's shop. 

Oh and key part its it's not recommended for kids 13 and under as the growth changes means it would need to be altered more frequently.  

However as mentioned above by @Vet88 blade alignment like in figure skating is a key part and many good figure shops could align a hockey skate.  

 

 

[smcgreg 81]

1 hour ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Its available now but only at my shop. Or in Lake Placid at Mr. Kelly's shop. 

Oh and key part its it's not recommended for kids 13 and under as the growth changes means it would need to be altered more frequently.  

However as mentioned above by @Vet88 blade alignment like in figure skating is a key part and many good figure shops could align a hockey skate.  

 

 

The cynical among us might think, between the VH thread and this one, this is a case of gorilla marketing at its finest.  Well, we can't really say what it is other than it improves skating... somehow, but really well.  It's so super secret only pros can do it.... well, except at my shop and one other..... Just sayin. 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Well sorry you feel that way. However I didnt start the thread not do I know the person who did. 

And if i wanted to promote it i would simply as @JR Boucicaut for a promo pack and do so. 

But honestly I'm to busy to take more clients at this time. I'll I was aiming to to do was to answer questions so that the information was correct. Feel free to have the thread deleted. 

 

PS: I was one of the first on this board so I can understand your point. 

Edited June 30, 2019 by oldtrainerguy28

[smcgreg 81]

OTG, it was somewhat tongue in cheek, because knowing you as long as I have, I think you are genuine.  On the other hand, if you take the two threads together the cynical might infer less genuine intent.  If I recall over the years, you have made similar comments to others who have made unsubstantiated claims in a similar fashion. 

Maybe it would be better if somebody could simply state what these things are CLEARLY and what they are intended to do.  The website doesn't make it clear.  You alluded to them in response to me in the VH thread, but again, not what they were, just that they made your son a better hockey player without me bringing them up.  Others have specifically asked what they are, but all answers have been rather nebulous and point to the fact it's expensive, but...... 

See what I'm getting at?  I'm genuinely curious and have posted comments and observations related to shims etc for years.  So, I'd like to know what's going on and what might be possible if they were available to the general public. 

Thanks,

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

2 minutes ago, smcgreg said:

OTG, it was somewhat tongue in cheek, because knowing you as long as I have, I think you are genuine.  On the other hand, if you take the two threads together the cynical might infer less genuine intent.  If I recall over the years, you have made similar comments to others who have made unsubstantiated claims in a similar fashion. 

Maybe it would be better if somebody could simply state what these things are CLEARLY and what they are intended to do.  The website doesn't make it clear.  You alluded to them in response to me in the VH thread, but again, not what they were, just that they made your son a better hockey player without me bringing them up.  Others have specifically asked what they are, but all answers have been rather nebulous and point to the fact it's expensive, but...... 

See what I'm getting at?  I'm genuinely curious and have posted comments and observations related to shims etc for years.  So, I'd like to know what's going on and what might be possible if they were available to the general public. 

Thanks,

Well thanks for that and you are correct I have done that hence why I was trying to be a little vague.  

So basically its shimming and a alignment of a skate for each person individual needs. Sometimes they are front sometimes rear. 

Mr. Kelly has worked out a process that is pretty darn accurate and takes the guess work out for EQM. Some the players can actually test the ice temp and adjust extra inside the skate to maintain the same feeling.  

Not sure what else there is to explain? It's a patented system to evaluate so I don't know how it determines what everyone needs I just install as asked. 

[smcgreg 81]

Just now, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Well thanks for that and you are correct I have done that hence why I was trying to be a little vague.  

So basically its shimming and a alignment of a skate for each person individual needs. Sometimes they are front sometimes rear. 

Mr. Kelly has worked out a process that is pretty darn accurate and takes the guess work out for EQM. Some the players can actually test the ice temp and adjust extra inside the skate to maintain the same feeling.  

Not sure what else there is to explain? It's a patented system to evaluate so I don't know how it determines what everyone needs I just install as asked. 

Well, that's somewhat more clear, so, thanks.  If it's patented, I guess we can go find out for ourselves.  It's simply a shim system though?  No blade movement? 

Can you enlighten us a bit more on how the process is made so darn accurate?

I can understand if you don't feel comfortable providing all the info yourself, but it's a bit odd that they have a website, but don't want to let people know what the product is, don't you think? 😉  Generally speaking, if you have a website, the point is to get info out to potential customers, so, it's a bit of a head scratcher. You have commented that they are addressing the website, so, maybe that will change. I guess I'll keep my eyes open for where there is actual information presented.  This is the time of year I investigate options for my son.  We never make changes midseason unless something drastic happens.  Right now is when we might test a shimming system or the like for him.  For me, ... I'm always testing.. 😉

Thanks again.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

A. It's a shim system and blade alignment.  He recommends you use your normal profile as long as it's not something drastically pitched or large combo. 

Once the skate is balanced you will find the need for drastic profiles isnt as necessary.  

B: Website. 

Mr. Kelly wasn't getting much traction and as you all have mentioned it didnt explain as well as it could have what it does. At the time if its release it was only himself doing the work in Lake Placid. Since he started working with the Leaf and Tampa players we connected through the skating coach and have I convinced him we could take it to the masses. So bear with it as we do the best possible to bring it forward.  

If there is anything you all would like to see on it I can pass it along and I can try and get them to add it. 

 

[smcgreg 81]

5 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

A. It's a shim system and blade alignment.  He recommends you use your normal profile as long as it's not something drastically pitched or large combo. 

Once the skate is balanced you will find the need for drastic profiles isnt as necessary.  

B: Website. 

Mr. Kelly wasn't getting much traction and as you all have mentioned it didnt explain as well as it could have what it does. At the time if its release it was only himself doing the work in Lake Placid. Since he started working with the Leaf and Tampa players we connected through the skating coach and have I convinced him we could take it to the masses. So bear with it as we do the best possible to bring it forward.  

If there is anything you all would like to see on it I can pass it along and I can try and get them to add it. 

 

Thanks.  I'll reiterate my main question from before

"Can you enlighten us a bit more on how the process is made so darn accurate? "

If you can't do that, it's fine, but that's what I'm really interested in.  As one who has modified his own Makos with the following modifications

1) Lateral shim between boot and holder on right skate, no shims on left

2) moving the blade laterally as far as can be accomodated with the Mako boot

3) left skate -1 vs stock CXN and right skate -2 vs stock CXN

4) tweaking of the right footbed, depending on the footbed (I've tried them all)

So, you can see I think about this quite a bit and have actually done most of the things this company is doing.  So, I'm just wondering how the get things so darn accurate, because I've thought about how to do that myself. 

Again, I'm legitimately curious and if they can substantiate how they do it and can do it better than what I've worked out on my own, I'd be very interested in utilizing the system. 

 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

1 hour ago, smcgreg said:

Thanks.  I'll reiterate my main question from before

"Can you enlighten us a bit more on how the process is made so darn accurate? "

If you can't do that, it's fine, but that's what I'm really interested in.  As one who has modified his own Makos with the following modifications

1) Lateral shim between boot and holder on right skate, no shims on left

2) moving the blade laterally as far as can be accomodated with the Mako boot

3) left skate -1 vs stock CXN and right skate -2 vs stock CXN

4) tweaking of the right footbed, depending on the footbed (I've tried them all)

So, you can see I think about this quite a bit and have actually done most of the things this company is doing.  So, I'm just wondering how the get things so darn accurate, because I've thought about how to do that myself. 

Again, I'm legitimately curious and if they can substantiate how they do it and can do it better than what I've worked out on my own, I'd be very interested in utilizing the system. 

 

The simple answer is the "jump test". .

Ex: my don during the jump test had his left heel raise 22mm before the right was ar 5mm off the ground. When landing they were equal. Hence his left skate had a heel lift. How Mr. Kelly determines all of the data is his patented analytic report and work of 15 years.  

So with your son if we I'd the jump test we could tell you what needed to go where. As you have all the pieces you could just add it to where was needed. 

As for alingbment he has a knack for seeing your sons foot and alignment is done how he feels he would be balanced via the centers of the boot from manufacturing not from where you think it should be as the appearance of center in the heel for instance is usually incorrect.  Hopefully that helps a little more. I'm just the installation guy... hahaha if you'd like I can forward the question?

 

Hes by trade a engineer and has worked for the US military and NASA   

His skating background is Olympic speedskater, University Hockey Player (with Mike Babcock at McGill) and figure skater. His wife also an Olympic Figure Skater. Not to mention again his father Red Kelly (recently passed) and HHOF member and his mother a figure skating coach. 

Just incase someone wondered if had ever skated and how he would be qualified for this. Hehehe.