How should this 3 vs 2 been played?

[VegasHockey 1280]

I dont think there was a way to play this better than it was., but I am open to suggestions. #25 couldn't commit to the shooter as he was facing a 2 v 1 himself and that would have left the second man wide open. #25 pushed the forward way outside of the circle and it should have been an easy stop for the goalie. I feel like #3 should have come across to reinforce the goalie when he noticed the other forward was not immediately crashing the net. Thoughts? 

 

[gosinger 122]

Perspective makes it a little hard to say, my $0.02 (Winger, not a D): The Ds are both very predictable in a straight line, let the forwards make the first move but then didn't react. Had the carrier dropped the puck back the strong-side D wouldn't have a chance to block / intercept as he was no where near the shooting lane, but he also didn't engage the carrier when he moved past as he waits too long to open up. Good positioning (inside the dots) but minor details - would suggest something like hip-opener / mohawk to avoid turning fully but still engaging the player so he can initiate contact when he decides to blow by but still not being caught off-guard when he drops back.

The weak side D is "covering" the slot but keeps his eyes on the puck, not forcing the weak side F to move by occupying the passing lane between carrier and weak-side F with the stick. If the puck gets out somehow its a 50/50 between him and the forward, and potentially the second forward.

Don't get me wrong, this is played better than ppl on my level, and I certainly wouldn't do a better job at all. Just that on the couch everyone is a coach 😉

 

Looking forward to this thread, will be interesting picking other ppls brains 🙂

[BenBreeg 493]

Hard to tell exactly what’s up with the perspective and all white jerseys but the first guy with the puck should have never had that much time in the neutral zone to make that little pass to the guy who carries it into the zone, both dmen just ceded ice. The back side Dman did nothing but back up with a big gap.  

 

Cant remember which session from coaches site but a recent session I watched said their d (NHL) play everything as a 2-2 unless the puck is coming through the middle.  That means much tighter gap and more direct alignment than the traditional “divide it into a 2-1 and 1-1” approach.  Don’t give them time and space, force them to make a good play.

[marka 526]

Howdy,

Looked to my fairly inexpert eyes like 25 played it fairly well, perhaps a bit too much gap, but the guy who carried the puck into the zone is just a good enough skater to smoke him to the outside (which could be why he gave him a little more gap).  The weak side D is just hanging in space while that is going on and doesn't come over to support so you end up with the puck carrier in front of the net in close alone and presumably he makes a hands-y play to score (I can't really tell).

Honestly, to me it looked good right up until the puck carrier was able to get completely around the outside of 25.  If he'd been able to stay with him well enough force the puck carrier behind the net or to the corner, everything would have been fine.

Mark

[evor1 6]

lmao those forwards literally just walking back to the d zone.  id start with blaming them, easily could have caught up and taken the possible drop pass away then your defender could have focused solely on the puck carrier

[psulion22 402]

4 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

Hard to tell exactly what’s up with the perspective and all white jerseys but the first guy with the puck should have never had that much time in the neutral zone to make that little pass to the guy who carries it into the zone, both dmen just ceded ice. The back side Dman did nothing but back up with a big gap.  

 

Cant remember which session from coaches site but a recent session I watched said their d (NHL) play everything as a 2-2 unless the puck is coming through the middle.  That means much tighter gap and more direct alignment than the traditional “divide it into a 2-1 and 1-1” approach.  Don’t give them time and space, force them to make a good play.

This is correct.  Forget what happens deep in the zone.  All the problems start in the neutral zone.  The transition is a 2v2.  #25 has good gap on the high forward.  But he's skating with his stick in two hands, which then means he can't and doesn't make a play on the outlet pass.  He should have stepped up and broken up the play there.  Even just having his stick down and near the forward's blade may have been enough.  So now he allows them to not only receive a pass clean when he was in good defensive position, also make a drop pass near the gray zone. As soon as a play like that is made so close to the blue line, you have to switch to the puckcarrier, because you would assume the other forward is going to have to stop or slow at the line.  He won't have any speed entering the zone and you'd be able to catch him if he got the puck.  Instead, #25 just backs off and gives them the line.  If he had been active there, he probably forces an off sides.  On the other side,  #3 (I assume that's the partner) is in the wrong position from inside the offensive zone, and never comes even close to covering or engaging an opponent.  He's late coming over when the puck switches sides in the offensive zone.  #3 doesn't identify the forward on the breakout, so instead of coming across the ice to the guy he skates out of the zone.  The guy who receives the drop pass, and eventually scores the goal, is who #3 should have been covering from the offensive zone. Instead he's actively skating away from his guy through the neutral zone for no reason.  Also from the blue line back, #25 did not make one stride.  No c-cuts, no crossovers, no change in direction to angle the forward, certainly no pivot to skate forwards. The entire defensive zone and all he did was swizzle backwards in a straight line.  Then down near the hash marks, when the forward took the puck to the backhand, #25 should have pivoted and turned to seal the corner.  Instead, he just reaches out with his stick and the guys skates right through it.  Because he never strides, he gave the puck carrier way too much gap and took a bad angle.  In fact, neither of your defensemen made one stride to generate speed from center ice all the way back until the goal was scored.  They both just bleed space for no reason, with #3 pretty much doing nothing.  It was a 2v2 most of the way, until the third forward joined the play high, and he's really not a threat.  And not one of those players are anywhere near the good ice.  #25 should have forced the play at some point from the neutral zone in - the outlet pass, the drop pass, the blue line, the whole way in.  If he gets beat it's no big deal because he has a partner and it's still an even man situation.  And #3 needs to get correct gap and cover someone.  I don't think that #3 could have slid over in time to make a good play once the guy got around #25.  Maybe if the goalie held the post at an angle to force the shooter back into the play he either would have saved it or #3 could have had a chance, but he risks being steamrolled by doing that.

I'm guessing OP is #25 and is getting heat from his team for letting the guy get by him.

Edited December 16, 2019 by psulion22

[BenBreeg 493]

FYI, the developing dmen presentation was by Glen Gulutzan (Dal, Cal, Edm assistant).  He started his talk by saying developing dmen starts at the offensive blue line, and now that I watched this on a bigger screen vs my phone, that is the first place this breaks down.  The dmen leave the zone by the time the opposite team dman is at the bottom of the circle.  Granted, there is zero forechecking pressure (or as ever1 pointed out, no pressure anywhere by the forwards) so that makes it hard but the strong side D could have held longer.

[Hills 712]

This is hilarious.

The guy in the neutral zone caught the puck skating backwards... which means #25 could've easily stepped up on him when the puck was coming or when he got it. Skating backwards means having no clue if someone is actually coming up behind you or not.

Then, #25 should actually learn how to skate backwards and use cross-overs and learn how to pivot. Shooter was basically already by #25 at the top of the circle, feet still planted forwards and 0 active movement, just swinging his stick. Doesn't even go for the puck once, just swings it at the player's midsection.

#3 should've covered the center of the ice closer to the hash, but that player scoring wasn't their man at all. Also, cross crease in tight like those are annoying as a goalie... so many options and a players skating fast going East-West are hard to keep up with, this was a decent move stopping up and pulling it back. Goalie had to commit because of the speed for the cross crease play, and the opponent pulled a nice move. If the shooter had any pressure at all they wouldn't be able to pull that off.

[psulion22 402]

47 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

FYI, the developing dmen presentation was by Glen Gulutzan (Dal, Cal, Edm assistant).  He started his talk by saying developing dmen starts at the offensive blue line, and now that I watched this on a bigger screen vs my phone, that is the first place this breaks down.  The dmen leave the zone by the time the opposite team dman is at the bottom of the circle.  Granted, there is zero forechecking pressure (or as ever1 pointed out, no pressure anywhere by the forwards) so that makes it hard but the strong side D could have held longer.

 

36 minutes ago, Hills said:

This is hilarious.

The guy in the neutral zone caught the puck skating backwards... which means #25 could've easily stepped up on him when the puck was coming or when he got it. Skating backwards means having no clue if someone is actually coming up behind you or not.

Then, #25 should actually learn how to skate backwards and use cross-overs and learn how to pivot. Shooter was basically already by #25 at the top of the circle, feet still planted forwards and 0 active movement, just swinging his stick. Doesn't even go for the puck once, just swings it at the player's midsection.

#3 should've covered the center of the ice closer to the hash, but that player scoring wasn't their man at all. Also, cross crease in tight like those are annoying as a goalie... so many options and a players skating fast going East-West are hard to keep up with, this was a decent move stopping up and pulling it back. Goalie had to commit because of the speed for the cross crease play, and the opponent pulled a nice move. If the shooter had any pressure at all they wouldn't be able to pull that off.

Yep- both #25 and, especially, #3 do a poor job of understanding gap at the offensive blue line.  I even made screen shots.  Before the pass is received, #25 is closer to the player than the puck is, but he lets the guy receive it clean and make another clean pass.  At the same time, #3 is nowhere near his guy since he didn't identify him at the offensive blue line, and then skated away from him.  If either of them makes the right read, this goal doesn't happen.  It's interesting to see how a guy that was in the right position to start let things fall apart so quickly by not moving his feet.

Then deep in the zone, the forward gets even with #25.  When a forward gets even, the defender has to turn towards him and skate to hold the angle.  #25 doesn't.  He doesn't move his feet at all, loses inside positioning, and then weakly reaches at the guy as he blows by.  #3 should probably be mosr in the middle of the ice because he's not really covering anything out there.  He's not in the passing or shooting lane and is too far away for a block attempt with his stick.  He needs to be in a position to either break up a pass or block a shot by being in a lane.  Maybe if he was there, #25 would have been a little more aggressive, but that's doubtful given the way the play unfolded and the lack of skating.

The reality is that the guy that scored this goal skated from the circle down in his own zone to the front of the other team's net without a player ever challenging him or really coming within 10 feet of him until the very last second. And he did it without another scoring threat keeping the defense away.

Edited December 16, 2019 by psulion22

[psulion22 402]

I'm also going to say that this is a pretty good breakout for a beer league.  The defender wins a puck battle in the corner.  His partner gives good support and comes behind the net to stop the wrap.  The strong side wing hits the hash.  And the other two forwards redirect and loop back when the puck switches sides.  They also do a good job of moving across the zone rather than vertically.  Then there's a pretty good timing play with that kick pass.  Most of the time, that puck is wrapped hard and a forward or D keeps it in the zone.  Or the other two forwards would have kept skating away from the play and the seam pass would have been broken up by #25.  Or the guy that eventually scored would have skated straight up the boards and been nowhere near the other guy for that pass so he wouldn't have gotten the puck.

#25 also does a good job of staying active and not glued on the blue line in the offensive zone and identifies the first option to close the gap.

[Vet88 674]

25 cant step up in the neutral zone because the break out D would have hit the winger instead of the center forward, then 25 is still facing a 3 on 1 (weak side D is providing no support at all!) but is now shallow, nearly stationary and can be easily burnt either side thru the neutral zone. So he has to drop deeper to protect against the 3, the issue is his defence on the puck carrier into the D zone, just watch his feet, they stop moving (before the half way line!) whilst the puck carrier gets his crossovers going and accelerates. 25 gets burnt on the outside instead of sticking with the player and forcing him wide / button hook / drop pass.

However even if 25 had held the puck carrier out, the rest of his team didn't help. The weak side D just puck watches and doesn't close the gap on the forward driving the middle and no one back checks hard enough to take out the drop pass so even if 25 did his job properly the puck carrier still had 2 open options.

[psulion22 402]

51 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

25 cant step up in the neutral zone because the break out D would have hit the winger instead of the center forward, then 25 is still facing a 3 on 1 (weak side D is providing no support at all!) but is now shallow, nearly stationary and can be easily burnt either side thru the neutral zone. So he has to drop deeper to protect against the 3, the issue is his defence on the puck carrier into the D zone, just watch his feet, they stop moving (before the half way line!) whilst the puck carrier gets his crossovers going and accelerates. 25 gets burnt on the outside instead of sticking with the player and forcing him wide / button hook / drop pass.

However even if 25 had held the puck carrier out, the rest of his team didn't help. The weak side D just puck watches and doesn't close the gap on the forward driving the middle and no one back checks hard enough to take out the drop pass so even if 25 did his job properly the puck carrier still had 2 open options.

That’s a 60-70 foot break out pass. #25 Was 6 feet away from the forward.  That’s more than enough time to step up after the puck was passed. Plus he didn’t know where his partner was. He never looks back and it’s too far behind him to be in his peripheral. His guy is the one that receives the first pass. Let the partner take the other guy and come back hard to help out.  
 

You’re right, the weak side D isn’t providing any help at all. And #25 stops skating from about center ice. But other than the puck carrier, there are no players in the good ice. The guy who receives the first pass keeps himself outside the circles at a bad shooting angle and isn’t moving very fast. It wouldn’t be hard to come back into a lane from there. Plus given the puckcarrier’s handed was, that would be a really difficult pass once he pulled it wide. The high player is still 50 feet away - well above the circles by the time the forward commits to the corner drive. And he’s not skating that hard. You just can’t give up good ice to protect bad ice. Calling this a 3-2 is a stretch. By the time the 3rd guy was in the play, the puck carrier had already decided to keep it himself and go wide. You have to take that guy every time by pivoting and forcing, or at least trying to angle the guy to the outside. If he can get it back to a guy in a less dangerous position, you can come back to the space or just let your goalie have a shot from the boards 30 feet away. That should be an easy stop. You have to do your job and let everyone else do their job. I think using the “odd-man” rush is just an excuse for not skating and bad awareness from both defensemen. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by psulion22

[caveman27 208]

It was a nice breakout play, where the guy skating backwards passes it back to the other forward with forward momentum instead of turning and skating it in himself. Of course, he had to slow himself down or he would be offside. 25 already had backward momentum and the backwards pass ruined 25's timing and created time and space. If 25 slowed down to engage the puck-handler around the blue line, he would become a stand-still obstacle. If the puck handler gets around him, it becomes a three-on-one. 

[Vet88 674]

I agree. Whilst 25 could have made a different decision at the offensive blue line and not started to skate backwards so much to cover, the break out D could have made a different pass and then 25 is screwed, stuck in no mans land going nowhere covering no one. So he skates backward not sure where the break pass is going to but covering all 3 forwards. The pass comes up the middle, now he has to stop, accelerate forward and make ABSOLUTELY sure he gets that puck because if he doesn't he is royally screwed. If the forward receiving the pass continues to skate backwards then it's an easy pick but if the forward also steps up then tips the puck past 25 for the other 2 forwards to skate onto it turns into a 2 on 0 (as the weak side D is still just a pylon). At this point I wouldn't have done anything different to what 25 did but I am a stay at home D. 

[Hills 712]

The offensive player was skating BACKWARDS. You don't have to pinch on the blue line and stand your ground there, you can stay slightly behind them since they can't see where you are and you pinch after the pass is made...

The player 25 stopped the pass for was also not skating when that pass came, if the backwards skating forward tipped the puck by it wasn't like his teammate was mid stride and would be flying gone... they didn't start skating until he realized his backwards skating teammate dropped the puck for him.

[Hills 712]

1 hour ago, pgeorgan said:

Seems like there was man-coverage on the puck carrier, so really it comes down to the goalie here.

I don't know the league rules but maybe the d-man could've been more aggressive in forcing the puck carrier to the outside. 

Ah yes, it comes down to the goalie after the D gets blown by without any resistance on the puck carrier 😆

[psulion22 402]

1 hour ago, Hills said:

The offensive player was skating BACKWARDS. You don't have to pinch on the blue line and stand your ground there, you can stay slightly behind them since they can't see where you are and you pinch after the pass is made...

The player 25 stopped the pass for was also not skating when that pass came, if the backwards skating forward tipped the puck by it wasn't like his teammate was mid stride and would be flying gone... they didn't start skating until he realized his backwards skating teammate dropped the puck for him.

This.  It's a 70 foot pass with a defender 5 feet away.  As far as I know, the defenseman who made the pass can't change who he passes it to after he passes it.  As soon as the puck leaves the stick, 25 should be stepping up to the player and going stick-on-puck.  That will keep him from receiving it, tipping it, or skating by.  He doesn't have to skate past to try to jump the pass and pick it up.  He just has to get close enough to knock it away from the backwards guy.  If he does that, then the play is dead there.

The goal socrer was also moving laterally, so he wasn't going to catch a seam up the middle, he was going to have to go out wide.  And he's moving so slow that 25 was able to get back in front of him without making one stride.  25's partner was also back, way back, so at most it's a 1v1.  Backwards skating forward isn't moving so if he tips it by he won't catch up to the play before 25.  The wing down in the zone is way late so he isn't getting by 25 either.  It's not a 3on1, or 2on1, or any odd man rush.  It's a situation where the worst case is a defenseman just has to turn around and skate back.

 

[VegasHockey 1280]

4 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

Seems like there was man-coverage on the puck carrier, so really it comes down to the goalie here.

I don't know the league rules but maybe the d-man could've been more aggressive in forcing the puck carrier to the outside. 

There was already a lot of contact in this game and the refs were very assertive in calling out penalties.

More aggressive probably would have been a good option but it surely would have resulted in a penalty. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by SkateWorksPNW

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 hours ago, Hills said:

Ah yes, it comes down to the goalie after the D gets blown by without any resistance on the puck carrier 😆

Its always the goalie 😉

[Hills 712]

Cutting across the front of the net at the bottom of the circle isn't a "low-probability" angle... it is one of the most dangerous plays.

[psulion22 402]

23 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

Lol, well, it was a low-probability angle. Just saying. But to my point, ya the D should've laid that guy out. Nobody should be able to cut in that easily. 

That being said, the puck-carrier had a drop-pass option available that they did not use, presumably because they were unafraid to charge the net, so that must be typical of the league or something. 

Reminds me of an old Ovechkin/Xbox gif: https://imgur.com/gallery/haRBQL7

He should have laid the guy out in beer league? 🙄

[caveman27 208]

23 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

Lol, well, it was a low-probability angle. Just saying. But to my point, ya the D should've laid that guy out. Nobody should be able to cut in that easily. 

That being said, the puck-carrier had a drop-pass option available that they did not use, presumably because they were unafraid to charge the net, so that must be typical of the league or something. 

Reminds me of an old Ovechkin/Xbox gif: https://imgur.com/gallery/haRBQL7

I can understand not laying someone out in a non-checking league. What I try to do in one-on-one's is force them outside, block the puck with my feet if they try the "pass the puck between his legs and go around him and pick it up" move, stick-on-puck to block shot attempts, poke check, and it it's a patient puck handler who sees he can't get around me, he'll turn away at the goal line and give himself space and time for a pass. That or he's a faster skater who gets around me, dangles and snipes and the rest is up to the goalie.

[Davideo 99]

It seems that 25 likely have stepped up in the neutral zone to break up the pass, but as he would also have to change direction it would be a bit risky as he likely couldn't have cleanly intercepted the puck and there is a reasonable chance the winger can pick it up and go in 2 on 1. I'm guessing it would have successfully broken up the play, but given the somewhat lower intensity of the game in general, it isn't surprising the move isn't made.

25 being too late to turn is the only clear "error" in my opinion. A second earlier and he could drive the forward behind the net or at least to a sharp angle, poor percentage shot with no opportunity to cut in front of the net. The forward didn't make much of a move, just blew past the D. That being said, I've seen much worse D performance...