Finding my curve

[psulion22 402]

2 hours ago, colins said:

 

I left the P14 out of my last reply for the same reason. Personally it always felt/played a bit short for my preference.

I'm interested in that P90T.  A lot of people say it's Bauer's "Benn", but his pattern is nothing like that.  It's a P28 with a slight P92-like twist and a beak curve at the toe.

[colins 246]

3 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

I'm interested in that P90T.  A lot of people say it's Bauer's "Benn", but his pattern is nothing like that.  It's a P28 with a slight P92-like twist and a beak curve at the toe.

 

What's the "Bauer's Benn?". Do you have a pic or description?

P90T is often referenced back to this hockeystickman.com article:

https://www.hockeystickman.com/blogs/hockey-stick-alerts/jamie-benn-pro-stock-style-curve

 

[thelaterskater 16]

2 hours ago, lilcros said:

Can you explain what progressing 4 levels mean?

In the Twin Cities I’ve gone from being rated a 2->2.5->3->3.5->4 in one league (range is 1-6) and level 5 out of 10 in another (started at equivalent of their level 9, higher number being lower skill levels in that one).

Edited January 16, 2020 by johns25

[psulion22 402]

24 minutes ago, colins said:

 

What's the "Bauer's Benn?". Do you have a pic or description?

P90T is often referenced back to this hockeystickman.com article:

https://www.hockeystickman.com/blogs/hockey-stick-alerts/jamie-benn-pro-stock-style-curve

 

It's one of Bauer's "Pro Custom" offerings and is supposed to be what Benn uses.

From Bauer's description :

"BENN NHL CUSTOM CURVE. Similar to the P92 pattern with a beak toe (aggressive toe curve / edge) that makes it easier to toe drag and pull and release shots"

I found it to be much closer to a P28 than the HSM article indicates and the picture shows.  It's possible Bauer has increased the toe on it for their custom offering, but the actual curve is not what the HSM post describes as a P90T.

[colins 246]

14 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

It's one of Bauer's "Pro Custom" offerings and is supposed to be what Benn uses.

From Bauer's description :

"BENN NHL CUSTOM CURVE. Similar to the P92 pattern with a beak toe (aggressive toe curve / edge) that makes it easier to toe drag and pull and release shots"

I found it to be much closer to a P28 than the HSM article indicates and the picture shows.  It's possible Bauer has increased the toe on it for their custom offering, but the actual curve is not what the HSM post describes as a P90T.

 

Here's CCM's description:

 

 

Bauer's customizer describes something that looks more like this. They call it a "beak toe":

 

 

Nice and confusing when the two big guys Bauer and CCM start putting out a pattern with the same name but different curve isn't it!

 

colins

 

[psulion22 402]

25 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Here's CCM's description:

 

 

Bauer's customizer describes something that looks more like this. They call it a "beak toe":

 

 

Nice and confusing when the two big guys Bauer and CCM start putting out a pattern with the same name but different curve isn't it!

 

colins

 

Yep, this all makes perfect sense. That second curve is exactly what the Bauer Pro Custom curve looks like.  The "beak" part of it is interesting, because it's almost like what Ryan O'Rielly has on the toe of his blade.  The tip of the toe make a sharp angle, just not as severe as ROR's.

For a while now, everyone has said that Bauer's Benn is the same as the P90T, including Bauer themselves.  It is clearly not.  I'd like a P90T, Bauer's Benn, not so much.

Another problem is that people are using that P90T label interchangeably, or just slapping it on any curve that is inbetween, so there are many different curves that are being called P90T.  Go on SLS and see how many different curves are listed if you search P90T.  It's nuts.

Edited January 16, 2020 by psulion22

[lilcros 0]

53 minutes ago, johns25 said:

In the Twin Cities I’ve gone from being rated a 2->2.5->3->3.5->4 in one league (range is 1-6) and level 5 out of 10 in another (started at equivalent of their level 9, higher number being lower skill levels in that one).

Unfortunately I didn't understand sh*t that you just said 😄

[colins 246]

7 minutes ago, lilcros said:

Unfortunately I didn't understand sh*t that you just said 😄

 

21 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

Yep, this all makes perfect sense. That second curve is exactly what the Bauer Pro Custom curve looks like.  The "beak" part of it is interesting, because it's almost like what Ryan O'Rielly has on the toe of his blade.  The tip of the toe make a sharp angle, just not as severe as ROR's.

For a while now, everyone has said that Bauer's Benn is the same as the P90T, including Bauer themselves.  It is clearly not.  I'd like a P90T, Bauer's Benn, not so much.

Another problem is that people are using that P90T label interchangeably, or just slapping it on any curve that is inbetween, so there are many different curves that are being called P90T.  Go on SLS and see how many different curves are listed if you search P90T.  It's nuts.

 

I've had luck (so far) on sidelineswap ordering a Left Jetspeed that was listed as P90T (had no curve code on the shaft, but was labelled WASHKURUK) and a Left Ribcor PMT2 that was listed a a P90T. Both look like the CCM info above not the Bauer, although I do think the CCM pic (which is the hockeystickman pic) makes it look more closed that it really is. Which is also why for a while I had the P30 and P90T confused as being the same. They aren't, but that pic makes it look more closed (and closer to a P30) than it is in real life.

colins

 

[colins 246]

 

Public Service Advisory: All manufacturers should be mandated to provide standard curve/pattern pics with a non-all-black-shadowy blade. Maybe a graph paper like grid on the blade would help... I dunno but the two pics above are terrible ways to compare these curves for the average joe looking to buy a stick.

[psulion22 402]

3 hours ago, colins said:

 

 

I've had luck (so far) on sidelineswap ordering a Left Jetspeed that was listed as P90T (had no curve code on the shaft, but was labelled WASHKURUK) and a Left Ribcor PMT2 that was listed a a P90T. Both look like the CCM info above not the Bauer, although I do think the CCM pic (which is the hockeystickman pic) makes it look more closed that it really is. Which is also why for a while I had the P30 and P90T confused as being the same. They aren't, but that pic makes it look more closed (and closer to a P30) than it is in real life.

colins

 

Maybe that's it.  The HSM pic of the CCM version looks much more closed than it is, almost similar to a shorter P10.  That's what I want.

[colins 246]

 

Here's a better shot of the CCM P90T from HSM.

 

[getthekidthepuck 32]

On 1/15/2020 at 3:38 PM, krisdrum said:

Yeah, it is a bit of a shame the economies of scale are shifting towards just 3 basic curves.  Actually one of the reasons I brought up the question after finding a curve I dig, but that is quickly becoming obsolete.  I'm concerned with spending too much time getting used to it or really falling in love and them having to adjust again when they are all gone.  I figure I might as well take this time to explore a bit and see what the most popular curves have to offer.

 

On 1/15/2020 at 5:08 PM, psulion22 said:

Correct.  Lower lie is for further from the body (because the stick would be longer) and higher lie is closer to the body.

Personally, I have been using P88 for years.  I've been toying with the idea of going to a P92 to get a little more lift on shots and sauce without having to lift my hands as far.  The downside is the rounded, rockered toe is not quite as good for board battles or breaking up plays on defense.  I'll also need a lie 5 because of the length of my stick.  I tried p28.  It had too much rocker and required too much technical precision to be consistent.  It was spectacular when it worked.  But terrible when it didn't.  P30 was also really good - it's a mix of P88 and P28 with the good parts of each and not so much of the bad.  I got a lot of performance out of it without the need for as much precision.  But I just don't like CCM sticks, and now it looks like a good thing with it going away.  There are some other good options I like - P10, P90T possibly.  But when it comes down to it, I just keep going back to one of the retail curves because they are just more widely available.

Lol yeah I had that backwards. I honestly thought that lol, I have been using the  wrong lie for like 33 years!

[krisdrum 233]

Update... was away this weekend in Buffalo, so really didn't get a chance to mess around with stuff.  But I did pick up a Sherwood woody I found with a P88 and then last night a STX at our home rink with an X88 curve for super cheap.  So now have P92, P88, and PM9 curves.  I was really liking the lower lie of the PM9 (lie 5), but the P88 takes me in the opposite direction, with a lie 6, which would suggest I cut my stick shorter than normal to maximize blade on ice. 

Here is my concern... I'm short (5ft, 6in) and seem to like my sticks on the shorter side (about chin to adam's apple off skates).  A 6 lie is going to make my stick even shorter if I am looking to get the blade pretty flat in a neutral hand position.  Is there a reasonable limit to how short is too short?  I really don't want to look like I am out there using one of my son's junior sticks. 

[psulion22 402]

40 minutes ago, krisdrum said:

Update... was away this weekend in Buffalo, so really didn't get a chance to mess around with stuff.  But I did pick up a Sherwood woody I found with a P88 and then last night a STX at our home rink with an X88 curve for super cheap.  So now have P92, P88, and PM9 curves.  I was really liking the lower lie of the PM9 (lie 5), but the P88 takes me in the opposite direction, with a lie 6, which would suggest I cut my stick shorter than normal to maximize blade on ice. 

Here is my concern... I'm short (5ft, 6in) and seem to like my sticks on the shorter side (about chin to adam's apple off skates).  A 6 lie is going to make my stick even shorter if I am looking to get the blade pretty flat in a neutral hand position.  Is there a reasonable limit to how short is too short?  I really don't want to look like I am out there using one of my son's junior sticks. 

Despite what the label says, a P88 is a lie 5.  It's just about as low as a PM9 and P28, and much lower than a Lie 6 P92.

Edit:  In fact, I just went and compared a P88 to a PM9 and the P88 is actually lower than the PM9.

Edited January 21, 2020 by psulion22

[puckpilot 312]

1 hour ago, krisdrum said:

Here is my concern... I'm short (5ft, 6in) and seem to like my sticks on the shorter side (about chin to adam's apple off skates).  A 6 lie is going to make my stick even shorter if I am looking to get the blade pretty flat in a neutral hand position.  Is there a reasonable limit to how short is too short?  I really don't want to look like I am out there using one of my son's junior sticks. 

If it works for you it works for you. In reality, it doesn't matter how long or short the stick is. If you want the blade to sit completely flat, simply close the blade face. Rarely, if ever, do you skate with the blade perfectly vertical. Generally, if you have the blade vertical, you're just making things harder on yourself in terms catching passes and stickhandling, etc.

In general, you just have to worry about if you're comfortable adjusting your hand placement, so that it allows the stick to sit in position that allows you to do what you need. I'm 5'5 I use lie 5 and lie 6 sitcks. Depending on how I feel, I'll tweak the heights, regardless of lie, so they're somewhere between my collarbone and just below my chin, which is between 50" and 52". When I'm using a shorter stick, my body positioning adjusts in different ways. My hands get closer together, my knees bend a little more, and the general height where my hands sit is a bit lower, which I'm fine with. When the stick is a bit longer, the opposite adjustment happens.

I remember a while back someone posted a pic of a Crosby pro stock stick. It was 54" in height. Crosby is 5'11- 6"0. 

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by puckpilot

[krisdrum 233]

Thanks, I'm overthinking things as usual. 

[krisdrum 233]

1 hour ago, puckpilot said:

Depending on how I feel, I'll tweak the heights, regardless of lie, so they're somewhere between my collarbone and just below my chin, which is between 50" and 52".

 

Curious if your stick height is based on or off skates...

[puckpilot 312]

4 hours ago, krisdrum said:

Curious if your stick height is based on or off skates...

On my skates. 😄

[start_today 770]

17 hours ago, krisdrum said:

.  I was really liking the lower lie of the PM9 (lie 5), but the P88 takes me in the opposite direction, with a lie 6, which would suggest I cut my stick shorter than normal to maximize blade on ice. 

Re: Lies (apologies if I’m over explaining something you already know)

The three main curves in widely available, p88, p28, p92, are all “rockered,” meaning that the bottom isn’t a flat line leading to an X degree angle with the shaft. They are  rounded, so the lie sorta changes depending on where your measure it or what specific part your have on the ice. It’s annoying in that it’s not just a variable you can look at and say “I need this.” It’s one of those things you have to experiment with, and see what works for you. 

 

17 hours ago, krisdrum said:

Here is my concern... I'm short (5ft, 6in) and seem to like my sticks on the shorter side (about chin to adam's apple off skates).  Is there a reasonable limit to how short is too short?  I really don't want to look like I am out there using one of my son's junior sticks. 

Where do your sticks hit when you are on skates? Adam’s apple on flat feet seems pretty short. Again, everyone likes different things (Crosby uses a fairly short stick and he manages ok).

I feel like for a beginner, the danger of a short stick is that you bend too much at the waist to compensate, rather than a good deep knee bend. Or, maybe the shorter stick pullls you down and helps that. Who knows? 

Being able to “sit low” and drive everything through your quads and butt is one of the most important skills in hockey. 

[bvictor 0]

Just going to piggyback on this thread, since I have a beginner question...

I got a P28 on my first stick.  I had no idea what I was looking at, just knew it was the correct hand and close to the right length.  I see now on the descriptions it's great for toe drags and lifting the puck, neither of which I'll need to focus on for a while..should I keep the P28?  Or would it be a better idea to look for a P29, P40 or P45 type curve, to learn on a more balanced blade?  

[psulion22 402]

7 minutes ago, bvictor said:

Just going to piggyback on this thread, since I have a beginner question...

I got a P28 on my first stick.  I had no idea what I was looking at, just knew it was the correct hand and close to the right length.  I see now on the descriptions it's great for toe drags and lifting the puck, neither of which I'll need to focus on for a while..should I keep the P28?  Or would it be a better idea to look for a P29, P40 or P45 type curve, to learn on a more balanced blade?  

I definitely would not use a P28 as a beginner stick.  P92/29 or P88 are going to be what you want to start with.  I personally would go with P88/P40 because it's a wide, flat blade without much rocker and it's a pretty vanilla curve that isn't too open.  It will be easy to learn and master most skills with.  I'd choose it over P92/29 because the P92 is a pretty upright lie 6 and has more rocker.  I see a lot of beginners (I coach adult learn-to-play) using P92s with the toe of the blade well off the ice unless their hands are perfect and they're making a concerted effort to keep the blade down.  Typically this ends up in the puck going under the toe because they don't get their hands right in time to receive the pass or pick up the puck.  

[colins 246]

3 hours ago, start_today said:

Re: Lies (apologies if I’m over explaining something you already know)

The three main curves in widely available, p88, p28, p92, are all “rockered,” meaning that the bottom isn’t a flat line leading to an X degree angle with the shaft. They are  rounded, so the lie sorta changes depending on where your measure it or what specific part your have on the ice. It’s annoying in that it’s not just a variable you can look at and say “I need this.” It’s one of those things you have to experiment with, and see what works for you. 

 

Where do your sticks hit when you are on skates? Adam’s apple on flat feet seems pretty short. Again, everyone likes different things (Crosby uses a fairly short stick and he manages ok).

I feel like for a beginner, the danger of a short stick is that you bend too much at the waist to compensate, rather than a good deep knee bend. Or, maybe the shorter stick pullls you down and helps that. Who knows? 

Being able to “sit low” and drive everything through your quads and butt is one of the most important skills in hockey. 

 

Agree with all the advice above, but it's not so helpful to call it a deep knee bend, it's really a hip hinge. A hip hinge will naturally promote a knee bend otherwise you simply won't maintain your balance.

It's the same concept as learning to properly do a squat or deadlift.

If you just try bending your knees when skating without hinging your hips, you'll get very tired quads and an awkward stride.

There are many different philosophies on stick length - from the approach Howie Meeker taught years ago (which is pretty much what Crosby has today) to the extreme opposite with a guy like Patrik Laine who uses a really long stick and bends his top hand elbow during normal stick handling - something the Meeker camp would say is simply wrong. But it's worked out pretty good for Laine. Either can work but your game has to follow the approach - Laine is never going to be the player Crosby is in tight and down low on the boards, behind the net, puck in tight traffic... and Crosby is never going to have a release and one-timer to match Laine's.

It's give and take, pick you poison and then become an expert with the path you've chosen.

 

 

 

 

[krisdrum 233]

49 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

I definitely would not use a P28 as a beginner stick.  P92/29 or P88 are going to be what you want to start with.  I personally would go with P88/P40 because it's a wide, flat blade without much rocker and it's a pretty vanilla curve that isn't too open.  It will be easy to learn and master most skills with.  I'd choose it over P92/29 because the P92 is a pretty upright lie 6 and has more rocker.  I see a lot of beginners (I coach adult learn-to-play) using P92s with the toe of the blade well off the ice unless their hands are perfect and they're making a concerted effort to keep the blade down.  Typically this ends up in the puck going under the toe because they don't get their hands right in time to receive the pass or pick up the puck.  

As the OP, I have noticed exactly what you are saying.  I've been using mostly Easton E3 (p92/29) curve, and I definitely struggle to keep the toe down, which results in missed passes, not great stick handling and just overall struggles.  I also have found it hard to consistently get the puck to come off the blade the same way twice in a row when shooting.  Much of that might be technique, but after trying the PM9 and P88 curves, definitely find them more user friendly for where my skill level is currently at. 

So another semi-update.  Did a bit of stick handling and pass/receive with the P88s last night and so far I am liking it.  Feels more "secure" and "grounded" then my P92 curves did and about the same as my PM9 curves.  I think it is what I'll stick with for awhile unless I start to see inconsistencies pop back up.  Thanks everyone for weighing in and lending a hand. 

[krisdrum 233]

50 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Agree with all the advice above, but it's not so helpful to call it a deep knee bend, it's really a hip hinge. A hip hinge will naturally promote a knee bend otherwise you simply won't maintain your balance.

It's the same concept as learning to properly do a squat or deadlift.

If you just try bending your knees when skating without hinging your hips, you'll get very tired quads and an awkward stride.

There are many different philosophies on stick length - from the approach Howie Meeker taught years ago (which is pretty much what Crosby has today) to the extreme opposite with a guy like Patrik Laine who uses a really long stick and bends his top hand elbow during normal stick handling - something the Meeker camp would say is simply wrong. But it's worked out pretty good for Laine. Either can work but your game has to follow the approach - Laine is never going to be the player Crosby is in tight and down low on the boards, behind the net, puck in tight traffic... and Crosby is never going to have a release and one-timer to match Laine's.

It's give and take, pick you poison and then become an expert with the path you've chosen.

 

 

 

 

THIS is very helpful, for me and what I am seeing in my son.  I'll try the "hip hinge" instruction instead of the "bend knees" instruction.  This has been a constant struggle for him and it is getting to the point where despite great edge work and other positives to his game, his lack of knee bend/hip hinge/ability to lengthen his stride is holding his game back.