Labeda Slime

[Westside 232]

4 hours ago, Miller55 said:

Dual durometer, but not dual pour. 

Isn’t that the same thing? They both have a softer inner and harder exterior (dual durometer). Not sure how you’d do this in any way other than a ‘dual pour’ manufacturing process. 

[Miller55 333]

2 hours ago, Westside said:

Isn’t that the same thing? They both have a softer inner and harder exterior (dual durometer). Not sure how you’d do this in any way other than a ‘dual pour’ manufacturing process. 

They are different. Dual pour is the process. Dual durometer is the material.

Dual pour means that each durometer is poured separately and set individually. Dual durometer means that the two different urethanes are poured simultaneously, so they do not set separately and they do not each form their own layer. Instead, you have a single pour, dual durometer urethane that had some of the advantages of both and is typically superior to single durometer single pour wheels, but inferior to dual or triple pour/durometer wheels. This is my understanding of it, and if you look at RR promo materials on the trickster, you will see clearly that they refrain from writing anything about dual pour, but they try to wordsmith it in such a way that the dual durometer sounds like you're getting the same advantages. But they consistently avoid writing dual pour because it isn't. 

[Westside 232]

Geez. That’s crazy confusing. Well I picked up a set of the tricksters so we’ll see how they hold up compared to the Labedas I’m used to. Can’t seem to find the MPC anywhere in the states and spending $13+ per wheel is just nonsense 

[Miller55 333]

13 minutes ago, Westside said:

Geez. That’s crazy confusing. Well I picked up a set of the tricksters so we’ll see how they hold up compared to the Labedas I’m used to. Can’t seem to find the MPC anywhere in the states and spending $13+ per wheel is just nonsense 

Kinda but if you watch a video on how Iran wheels are made it will probably be simpler to understand. Dual pour also means that they are using two molds. The first mold is making the inner core, which is basically like making a baby wheel. Then they set that into the regular molds and pour the outer urethane. This is why they cost double, since they are essentially making two wheels for each wheel they produce, so your saying for the process twice. Why the tricksters are so expensive though, is a different story.

They aren't selling the MPC in the states. If you go direct through RR you might be able to get a set.

[Westside 232]

Where’s a video of the process?

 

looking in Australia the wheels are $30 which is about $21 USD. Per wheel! When Labeda or most other asphalt wheels are $7 each, that’s a hefty investment for non-professional players 

[Miller55 333]

4 hours ago, Westside said:

Where’s a video of the process?

 

looking in Australia the wheels are $30 which is about $21 USD. Per wheel! When Labeda or most other asphalt wheels are $7 each, that’s a hefty investment for non-professional players 

There's probably one on YouTube, I remember seeing one years ago on skateboard wheels. Basically the same idea.

Yeah, that's expensive. I saw in euros for 13 euros each, which is like 15usd. Fit asphalt wheels it's a lot and I wouldn't buy them. I would use them for indoor wood honestly.

At $15 they're only a dollar more than addictions, which is not that big a deal to me aiming they will last much longer.

My predicament is essentially that there is no indoor wheel that is hard enough for me, given the combination of my weight, hard skating and the sprungs. The hardest indoor wheels you can find are usually 78a, which is like walking in mud with those 3 factors. The other option is basically to use asphalt wheels inside, but I will probably not get as much grip as I'd like to.

So the world cup 82a reissue and the MPC freestyle dual pour 84a are the only real options for me, since they are hard, grippy and play softer than outdoor wheels. If I don't like the new world cups and can't get my hands on freestyles, my only real option is tricksters. 

All of this is obviously assuming the rink will open in time for fall season, and who really knows at this point what's going to be

 

[althoma1 574]

3 hours ago, Miller55 said:

There's probably one on YouTube, I remember seeing one years ago on skateboard wheels. Basically the same idea.

Yeah, that's expensive. I saw in euros for 13 euros each, which is like 15usd. Fit asphalt wheels it's a lot and I wouldn't buy them. I would use them for indoor wood honestly.

At $15 they're only a dollar more than addictions, which is not that big a deal to me aiming they will last much longer.

My predicament is essentially that there is no indoor wheel that is hard enough for me, given the combination of my weight, hard skating and the sprungs. The hardest indoor wheels you can find are usually 78a, which is like walking in mud with those 3 factors. The other option is basically to use asphalt wheels inside, but I will probably not get as much grip as I'd like to.

So the world cup 82a reissue and the MPC freestyle dual pour 84a are the only real options for me, since they are hard, grippy and play softer than outdoor wheels. If I don't like the new world cups and can't get my hands on freestyles, my only real option is tricksters. 

All of this is obviously assuming the rink will open in time for fall season, and who really knows at this point what's going to be

 

I am over 200lbs, skate hard and use Sprungs and find the Konnix Pure plus 2 wheels work well on Sport Court. I actually used to use 78a Hot Shots in the first three positions and 84a World Cups in the rear spot. I had some hub separation issues with the World Cups and the Konnix Pure actually last longer for me. Before the Konnix wheels I used Revision Steel wheels and those weren't bad, but I had the odd separation in those as well. I have never had a hub separate in over two years with the Konnix and they grip better, but don't feel like I am skating in mud. 

I do have some cheap single pour outdoor wheels that I used to ref with on smooth cement and those do feel like skating in mud. I have some other 86a outdoor wheels that feel better.

Anyway,  I would give the original Konnix Pure plus 2 a try if you haven't already. They're definitely the best Sport Court wheels I have used with Sprungs and I do like a hard wheel. 

[Miller55 333]

6 hours ago, althoma1 said:

I am over 200lbs, skate hard and use Sprungs and find the Konnix Pure plus 2 wheels work well on Sport Court. I actually used to use 78a Hot Shots in the first three positions and 84a World Cups in the rear spot. I had some hub separation issues with the World Cups and the Konnix Pure actually last longer for me. Before the Konnix wheels I used Revision Steel wheels and those weren't bad, but I had the odd separation in those as well. I have never had a hub separate in over two years with the Konnix and they grip better, but don't feel like I am skating in mud. 

I do have some cheap single pour outdoor wheels that I used to ref with on smooth cement and those do feel like skating in mud. I have some other 86a outdoor wheels that feel better.

Anyway,  I would give the original Konnix Pure plus 2 a try if you haven't already. They're definitely the best Sport Court wheels I have used with Sprungs and I do like a hard wheel. 

Thanks. I have a few different rinks that I play at, only one is sport court and I'm probably not going to continue playing there (leagues suck, times suck, rinks are small, very cliquey guys). There is an outdoor ice mesh court not far, but it literally destroys any and every wheel. I felt like a 13 year old playing with 3 chewed up millenniums there after like 3 games. Couldn't justify 3 new sets of wheels for one roller season. So that's out.

The best indoor is wood, which is much grippier than tiles, so I think even the pures will be too soft. The other issue is that I can't find them anywhere, only 72mm +2. It seems like anyone who liked them bought up whatever stock was left.

The other surfaces I play on are street asphalt and painted or polished cement. I pre-ordered the R-1s and if I like them I will probably use those for outdoor and keep the sprungs for indoor only. For some reason the idea of alloy makes me feel more comfortable than plastic. I'm on with the plastic on wood, but in asphalt, not as much. I've used my sprungs outdoors lately and they are just too soft, especially around the axels and the axels themselves, they just look shredded from almost nothing. I don't want to have to think about babying my skates while I play, so I'd rather just keep them for indoor.

If I go to the R1 for asphalt I'll probably just use regular 85a Labedas. My assumption is that the R1 is not like the sprungs with extra grip, they still rely entirely on the wheel for the rebound and the flex to grip the surface. At best I will pick up a set of tricksters, but the Labedas will have to be an absolute performance/durability fail to justify that for me. 

If you know anywhere that has 8x80mm +2 Konixx Pures, let me know and I'd definitely try them

[althoma1 574]

3 hours ago, Miller55 said:

Thanks. I have a few different rinks that I play at, only one is sport court and I'm probably not going to continue playing there (leagues suck, times suck, rinks are small, very cliquey guys). There is an outdoor ice mesh court not far, but it literally destroys any and every wheel. I felt like a 13 year old playing with 3 chewed up millenniums there after like 3 games. Couldn't justify 3 new sets of wheels for one roller season. So that's out.

The best indoor is wood, which is much grippier than tiles, so I think even the pures will be too soft. The other issue is that I can't find them anywhere, only 72mm +2. It seems like anyone who liked them bought up whatever stock was left.

The other surfaces I play on are street asphalt and painted or polished cement. I pre-ordered the R-1s and if I like them I will probably use those for outdoor and keep the sprungs for indoor only. For some reason the idea of alloy makes me feel more comfortable than plastic. I'm on with the plastic on wood, but in asphalt, not as much. I've used my sprungs outdoors lately and they are just too soft, especially around the axels and the axels themselves, they just look shredded from almost nothing. I don't want to have to think about babying my skates while I play, so I'd rather just keep them for indoor.

If I go to the R1 for asphalt I'll probably just use regular 85a Labedas. My assumption is that the R1 is not like the sprungs with extra grip, they still rely entirely on the wheel for the rebound and the flex to grip the surface. At best I will pick up a set of tricksters, but the Labedas will have to be an absolute performance/durability fail to justify that for me. 

If you know anywhere that has 8x80mm +2 Konixx Pures, let me know and I'd definitely try them

Yes, decades ago I played on wood and remember using 86a single pour wheels for that and still having a lot of grip and that was in the pre-Sprung days with a flat chassis. 

I think your plan of using the R1 outdoors and the Sprungs indoors makes sense. The grit of outdoor surfaces can get in the part of the frame that holds the front rocker arms in Sprungs and loosen them up with friction wear. Plus, as you said, the asphalt can wear down the plastic. When you get the R1's and have a few hours of playing on them, I'd love to hear your thoughts on those vs. Sprungs.

I don't know how many they have, but I know Coast to Coast inline has some original Konnix Pure's in +2 listed on their site: https://coasthockeyshop.com/collections/indoor-inline-roller-hockey-wheels/products/konixx-pure-wheel?variant=36561322769

I have never used them on anything, but Sport Court though; so don't know if they're the best option for the surfaces you play on. Most of the guys, I know that play on polished concrete with Sprungs swear by the yellow Labeda Grippers. They spend money on top end wheels when they play on Sport Court and have tried those on cement, but say for some reason the single pour wheels work better on the polished concrete. They are lighter than I am though. 

[Miller55 333]

32 minutes ago, althoma1 said:

Yes, decades ago I played on wood and remember using 86a single pour wheels for that and still having a lot of grip and that was in the pre-Sprung days with a flat chassis. 

I think your plan of using the R1 outdoors and the Sprungs indoors makes sense. The grit of outdoor surfaces can get in the part of the frame that holds the front rocker arms in Sprungs and loosen them up with friction wear. Plus, as you said, the asphalt can wear down the plastic. When you get the R1's and have a few hours of playing on them, I'd love to hear your thoughts on those vs. Sprungs.

I don't know how many they have, but I know Coast to Coast inline has some original Konnix Pure's in +2 listed on their site: https://coasthockeyshop.com/collections/indoor-inline-roller-hockey-wheels/products/konixx-pure-wheel?variant=36561322769

I have never used them on anything, but Sport Court though; so don't know if they're the best option for the surfaces you play on. Most of the guys, I know that play on polished concrete with Sprungs swear by the yellow Labeda Grippers. They spend money on top end wheels when they play on Sport Court and have tried those on cement, but say for some reason the single pour wheels work better on the polished concrete. They are lighter than I am though. 

I'll definitely post my thought on the R1 after I get set up on them. Wood usually has a heavy urethane based laquer coating which is super grippy, but could be really slow. 

If I remember correctly the yellow grippers are 80a or so? Might be 78. I think for polished and painted cement and wood I'm going to try the new world cup reissues 82a. 

[althoma1 574]

I think the yellow grippers are around 78a; so maybe too soft for a bigger, harder skating player with Sprungs. I think a set of Labeda Asphalts that haven't been used outside may be worth a shot on wood and possibly on the polished concrete (and if they're not grippy enough on the concrete you could always try the 83a Asphalts), but the World Cups aren't a bad idea either. 

[Miller55 333]

1 hour ago, althoma1 said:

I think the yellow grippers are around 78a; so maybe too soft for a bigger, harder skating player with Sprungs. I think a set of Labeda Asphalts that haven't been used outside may be worth a shot on wood and possibly on the polished concrete (and if they're not grippy enough on the concrete you could always try the 83a Asphalts), but the World Cups aren't a bad idea either. 

Yeah that makes sense as long as they're brand new. I would definitely start with 83a before the 85a asphalts. They're also a few bucks cheaper so if they work I save a few bucks and if they don't I can just use them for asphalt so it's not a complete bust. Be

[nummer55 10]

On 7/30/2020 at 11:34 PM, Miller55 said:

They are different. Dual pour is the process. Dual durometer is the material.

Dual pour means that each durometer is poured separately and set individually. Dual durometer means that the two different urethanes are poured simultaneously, so they do not set separately and they do not each form their own layer. Instead, you have a single pour, dual durometer urethane that had some of the advantages of both and is typically superior to single durometer single pour wheels, but inferior to dual or triple pour/durometer wheels. This is my understanding of it, and if you look at RR promo materials on the trickster, you will see clearly that they refrain from writing anything about dual pour, but they try to wordsmith it in such a way that the dual durometer sounds like you're getting the same advantages. But they consistently avoid writing dual pour because it isn't. 

Dual durometer is non sense on a single pour wheel. The Shore A durometer measure (which is measured by pushing a little pin into the surface of the urethane with a scale like this: https://baxlo.com/en/shore-a-durometer) can only output one value: that of all the mixed chemicals making up the final urethane. Of course on a multi pour wheel each band will have its own durometer. Together the bands will act very differently then on a single pour wheel, thats why you see more and more brands getting rid of the A shore measure. It also says only so much: player weight, skating style, profile shape, core, wheel age, exposure to sun / temperature, shelf life and added chemicals all influence performance on different surfaces.

[hockeydad3 51]

7 hours ago, nummer55 said:

Dual durometer is non sense on a single pour wheel.

How do you call a wheel with different areas of urethane of a different durometer?

[nummer55 10]

4 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

How do you call a wheel with different areas of urethane of a different durometer?

A multi pour wheel. You have to understand the urethane is poured as a liquid. If you pour different chemistries they will mix and act as one.

[hockeydad3 51]

If you combine viscous liquids without stirring them, they will only mix in the transition zones. Like multicolored toothpaste. Only way for us to find out how a trickster wheel is constructed, is to cut a wheel into slices.

On 7/30/2020 at 9:41 PM, hockeydad3 said:

And finally both patent numbers printed on the wheels are for patents for multi durometer wheels (U.S. Pat. No. 6,036,278; U.S. Pat. No. 6,227,622B1).

[Wicked3Aussie 68]

On 7/31/2020 at 7:37 AM, Westside said:

Geez. That’s crazy confusing. Well I picked up a set of the tricksters so we’ll see how they hold up compared to the Labedas I’m used to. Can’t seem to find the MPC anywhere in the states and spending $13+ per wheel is just nonsense 

This attitude is the reason the wheel was cancelled as a hockey wheel to begin with.

Roller being smaller scale to ice and then no one wanting to pay for a premium outdoor wheel.

On 7/31/2020 at 8:10 AM, Westside said:

Where’s a video of the process?

 

looking in Australia the wheels are $30 which is about $21 USD. Per wheel! When Labeda or most other asphalt wheels are $7 each, that’s a hefty investment for non-professional players 

You get what you pay for.

If you’re a heavy player and you want to maximise your ability it’s worth every cent.

I ordere mine from Bladeworx’s in Victoria and had them in QLD pretty quick.

On 7/31/2020 at 12:37 PM, Miller55 said:

There's probably one on YouTube, I remember seeing one years ago on skateboard wheels. Basically the same idea.

Yeah, that's expensive. I saw in euros for 13 euros each, which is like 15usd. Fit asphalt wheels it's a lot and I wouldn't buy them. I would use them for indoor wood honestly.

At $15 they're only a dollar more than addictions, which is not that big a deal to me aiming they will last much longer.

My predicament is essentially that there is no indoor wheel that is hard enough for me, given the combination of my weight, hard skating and the sprungs. The hardest indoor wheels you can find are usually 78a, which is like walking in mud with those 3 factors. The other option is basically to use asphalt wheels inside, but I will probably not get as much grip as I'd like to.

So the world cup 82a reissue and the MPC freestyle dual pour 84a are the only real options for me, since they are hard, grippy and play softer than outdoor wheels. If I don't like the new world cups and can't get my hands on freestyles, my only real option is tricksters. 

All of this is obviously assuming the rink will open in time for fall season, and who really knows at this point what's going to be

 

Youre preaching to the choir!

Although I still think the 82a reissue were a failed product, 84a dual for the win.

On 7/31/2020 at 4:20 PM, althoma1 said:

I am over 200lbs, skate hard and use Sprungs and find the Konnix Pure plus 2 wheels work well on Sport Court. I actually used to use 78a Hot Shots in the first three positions and 84a World Cups in the rear spot. I had some hub separation issues with the World Cups and the Konnix Pure actually last longer for me. Before the Konnix wheels I used Revision Steel wheels and those weren't bad, but I had the odd separation in those as well. I have never had a hub separate in over two years with the Konnix and they grip better, but don't feel like I am skating in mud. 

I do have some cheap single pour outdoor wheels that I used to ref with on smooth cement and those do feel like skating in mud. I have some other 86a outdoor wheels that feel better.

Anyway,  I would give the original Konnix Pure plus 2 a try if you haven't already. They're definitely the best Sport Court wheels I have used with Sprungs and I do like a hard wheel. 

Before I got on the Freestyle Dual pour(84A reissue) the only wheel I could use with success was the +2 pures.

I tried the pure x but unfortunately they feel very similar to the 82a in that they bog down and just don’t feel as comfortable.

To be fair they do last longer and have slightly better grip than the original pure.

Freestyle dual pours are faster, grippier & much longer lasting than the pures.
 

6 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

If you combine viscous liquids without stirring them, they will only mix in the transition zones. Like multicolored toothpaste. Only way for us to find out how a trickster wheel is constructed, is to cut a wheel into slices.

It’s basically a wank.

They’re trying to insinuate that you can have your cake and eat it for much cheaper without saying it.

I bought mine and didn’t even read into the dual durometer because it’s still a single pour wheel.

Single pour means generally you choose either grip or roll speed, not usually both.

Dual pour gives you that flexibility as you have the 62a inner core that flexes on corners to give you cornering grip and stopping power and your choice of harder outer layer to have that amazing roll as well( having your cake and eating it).

It’s not the same with a dual duro as its still only one layer and depends on what hardness you get. (No comparison with a true dual or triple pour).

The Australian Touring Car championship(V8 Supercars) recently banned a technology called “twin springs” as an unfair suspension advantage.

the technology is the same, as you have a longer hard spring and then a shorter soft spring joined as one.

The hard spring would benefit straight line & cornering exit speed and having the soft spring for cornering grip all in one.

The big budget teams tuned their hardnesses and had a huge advantage.

Same technology.

I can’t explain the patents as thats their business but as many other have suggested, don’t buy into the Dual duro hype.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Wicked3Aussie

[Westside 232]

1 hour ago, Wicked3Aussie said:

This attitude is the reason the wheel was cancelled as a hockey wheel to begin with.

Roller being smaller scale to ice and then no one wanting to pay for a premium outdoor wheel.

You get what you pay for.

I understand paying a premium, but the gold standard outdoor hockey wheel is pretty much the Labeda Asphalt. That wheel runs $7. The MPC is more than FOUR TIMES the cost. Since this discussion started about the Slime, that wheel is $13 so the MPC is still 2.5x the cost. 
 

Comparing your logic of ‘you get what you pay for’, Step Steel or any other piece of premium equipment doesn’t cost 4x or 2.5x more than its high end counterpart. 20-50%? Sure. 
 

I’m willing to pay a premium (and do) for better performing or longer lasting gear. But I’m not willing to spend the cost of a single wheel that would normally buy a set of four. If they priced it closer to $15 there’d be a larger market willing to adopt them. For casual/rec users (non pros) I have a hard time believing that many people are going to spend that kind of money on wheels 

 

My $0.02

Edited August 2, 2020 by Westside

[Miller55 333]

1 hour ago, Westside said:

I understand paying a premium, but the gold standard outdoor hockey wheel is pretty much the Labeda Asphalt. That wheel runs $7. The MPC is more than FOUR TIMES the cost. Since this discussion started about the Slime, that wheel is $13 so the MPC is still 2.5x the cost. 
 

Comparing your logic of ‘you get what you pay for’, Step Steel or any other piece of premium equipment doesn’t cost 4x or 2.5x more than its high end counterpart. 20-50%? Sure. 
 

I’m willing to pay a premium (and do) for better performing or longer lasting gear. But I’m not willing to spend the cost of a single wheel that would normally buy a set of four. If they priced it closer to $15 there’d be a larger market willing to adopt them. For casual/rec users (non pros) I have a hard time believing that many people are going to spend that kind of money on wheels 

 

My $0.02

Dude, they are 15$ wheels. Your measuring this by the Australian shop which had to import them from Europe, which imports them from the US, which doesn't even sell them. In Australia they're marked up like crazy, but in Europe they're 15 bucks.

If you try calling RR, which is based out of Rhode island, they will probably get you a set if there are any in the US. They're a small company and the guys all love hockey and are really great about trying to help with anything they can. They'll probably cost you less than 13$ if you can get a set from here. It's still double the asphalts, but if they are either more durable or better performing or both, you can decide if that's worth it. 

In an interesting turn off events, the wood rink near me actually switched the flooring to smooth painted cement over the covid shutdown, so I'll probably try pures+2. Hopefully they'll perform well. Thinking to use a harder wheel in the back since my rear wheel gets destroyed with the sprungs

[Westside 232]

I apologize for the misunderstanding. Thank you for the clarification 

[hockeydad3 51]

Some more information from RinkRat: "The MPC free style is an Identity wheel, in single x durometer, therefore harder, just with different color hub and different color inner ring." They didn´t answer my question about a dual-durometer construction of the Trickster.

European prices:

MPC Freestyle single pour green: 11,95€

MPC Freestyle dual pour grey: 13,95€

Rink Rat Trickster: 10,60€

Labeda Asphalt 85a: 7,99€

[Wicked3Aussie 68]

21 hours ago, Westside said:

I understand paying a premium, but the gold standard outdoor hockey wheel is pretty much the Labeda Asphalt. That wheel runs $7. The MPC is more than FOUR TIMES the cost. Since this discussion started about the Slime, that wheel is $13 so the MPC is still 2.5x the cost. 
 

Comparing your logic of ‘you get what you pay for’, Step Steel or any other piece of premium equipment doesn’t cost 4x or 2.5x more than its high end counterpart. 20-50%? Sure. 
 

I’m willing to pay a premium (and do) for better performing or longer lasting gear. But I’m not willing to spend the cost of a single wheel that would normally buy a set of four. If they priced it closer to $15 there’d be a larger market willing to adopt them. For casual/rec users (non pros) I have a hard time believing that many people are going to spend that kind of money on wheels 

 

My $0.02

I & many others do.

Id rather pay more and go as hard as I can.

Everyone likes different things.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Wicked3Aussie

[Miller55 333]

Just ordered a couple sets of Konixx Pures +2 for my sprungs. Hoping they do well on smooth/painted cement.

[hockeydad3 51]

On 7/30/2020 at 11:37 PM, Westside said:

Geez. That’s crazy confusing. Well I picked up a set of the tricksters so we’ll see how they hold up compared to the Labedas I’m used to. Can’t seem to find the MPC anywhere in the states and spending $13+ per wheel is just nonsense 

Hello, did you have the opportunity to compare the Trickster X with the Labeda asphalt? How did they perform and on what surface?

[Westside 232]

15 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

Hello, did you have the opportunity to compare the Trickster X with the Labeda asphalt? How did they perform and on what surface?

Waiting for the R1 to arrive. Current O1 is a flat setup. I’ll be using them on asphalt; so pretty rough