Bladetech Initial Thoughts

[Neo5370 132]

How is this different from Easton's Parabolic steel from like 15 years ago.

[althoma1 574]

2 hours ago, smcgreg said:

Somebody earlier compared them to spungs for ice.  When I skate on my sprungs, I feel like I'm skating in mud. 

Sprungs do feel like skating in mud if you use them with wheels that are too soft. I have experienced this myself. The suspension provides more grip; so you have to use harder wheels than you would with a flat chassis. Also, full profile wheels rub with Sprungs; so make sure the wheels have an elliptical profile.

I don't think Bladetech would add more grip, but if it did it would be easy enough to switch to a shallower hollow.

 

[smcgreg 81]

4 minutes ago, althoma1 said:

Sprungs do feel like skating in mud if you use them with wheels that are too soft. I have experienced this myself. The suspension provides more grip; so you have to use harder wheels than you would with a flat chassis. Also, full profile wheels rub with Sprungs; so make sure the wheels have an elliptical profile.

I don't think Bladetech would add more grip, but if it did it would be easy enough to switch to a shallower hollow.

 

Hmmm... interesting.  I haven't skated on inlines enough to think about something like this. I honestly hate inline, but was doing it during shutdown to give my kid somebody to play with.  I am using softer wheels, though.  I was comparing it more to ice with regard to the feel.

To your point about more "grip".  I'm just going by what has been discussed on this thread rather than BT's documentation, but my impression was it was simply for spring effect to putatively increase linear speed. On the other hand, if what you propose were the case (e.g. increased grip in turns, allowing for a shallower hollow), this could result in greater speed without complicated stride mechanic interactions.  So, that would be interesting.   I skate on 3/4 and if I could go to 1", that would be awesome. 

[althoma1 574]

9 minutes ago, smcgreg said:

Hmmm... interesting.  I haven't skated on inlines enough to think about something like this. I honestly hate inline, but was doing it during shutdown to give my kid somebody to play with.  I am using softer wheels, though.  I was comparing it more to ice with regard to the feel.

To your point about more "grip".  I'm just going by what has been discussed on this thread rather than BT's documentation, but my impression was it was simply for spring effect to putatively increase linear speed. On the other hand, if what you propose were the case (e.g. increased grip in turns, allowing for a shallower hollow), this could result in greater speed without complicated stride mechanic interactions.  So, that would be interesting.   I skate on 3/4 and if I could go to 1", that would be awesome. 

I am not trying to claim that BT provides more grip as I have no experience with them. I just meant it would be easy to adjust the hollow accordingly if that were the case. 

You will have a much better experience with Sprungs with harder wheels. The ideal wheels will depend on your weight and the surface.

As someone with bad knees, I do like the idea of taking impact away from the joints.

[BenBreeg 493]

4 hours ago, Neo5370 said:

How is this different from Easton's Parabolic steel from like 15 years ago.

I thought the parabolic steel was supposed to flex in the middle when turning, I don’t recall any spring-like effect claimed.

[Miller55 333]

9 hours ago, smcgreg said:

I'm curious about this too.  If we look at the mechanics of running, we know that increased spring stiffness can increase running performance (but possibly increase injury risk).  But skating isn't running.  If you have trained skating mechanics, then I can see this spring energy return mechanism possibly helping, but after skating for a while, wouldn't the body adapt to the new mechanical dyanamics and minimize the benefit?

Alternatively, the point I think you're getting at is the fact that just because the spring is loaded and releases, doesn't mean the timing of the release can contribute to increased speed.  Mechanics would need to be "tuned" to this effect presumably.  Further, I can see how mistiming of the spring release could be detrimental and contribute to decreased efficiencies. 

Somebody earlier compared them to spungs for ice.  When I skate on my sprungs, I feel like I'm skating in mud. 

I guess I'm a bit skeptical?  If there is data though, by all means, let's take a look!!! 🙂

Your wheels are too soft! I put 78a wheels on my sprungs initially. I weigh close to 200 lbs and I felt the same thing. Then I put on 82a for outdoor and it was better. Now I'm using 89a wheels for outdoor. With my weight and being a fairly advanced skater I could probably use 82-84a wheels on sport court even. You're missing out. On 89a's I'm flying. They are way faster than standard chassis.

Ok, back to the topic

[xstartxtodayx 343]

 I bought a set of these a while back after reading about them and being sold on the benefits (mainly the stuff about being easier on the knees/joints since I've had a few knee surgeries).  I tried them one time and ditched them, I honestly didn't give them much of a chance and wish I did.  Right off the bat I had them profiled and sharpened the same as my existing skates (at that time it was a standard Bauer profile so 9' or whatever it was).  First skate I def felt the slight flex but it made me feel like I had a shorter profile, I felt like I was tipping over the front at times and didn't like that (knowing what I know now I should have tried a different profile to maybe compensate or even used a quad profile which most likely would've been great with these).  I switched skates not long after this (went to CCM) so I never really had a chance to give them any more of a chance.  I do still think it's a great idea so I'm looking fwd to what JR thinks about them when he finds some ice to try them on.

[Giltis 116]

1 hour ago, xstartxtodayx said:

 I bought a set of these a while back after reading about them and being sold on the benefits (mainly the stuff about being easier on the knees/joints since I've had a few knee surgeries).  I tried them one time and ditched them, I honestly didn't give them much of a chance and wish I did.  Right off the bat I had them profiled and sharpened the same as my existing skates (at that time it was a standard Bauer profile so 9' or whatever it was).  First skate I def felt the slight flex but it made me feel like I had a shorter profile, I felt like I was tipping over the front at times and didn't like that (knowing what I know now I should have tried a different profile to maybe compensate or even used a quad profile which most likely would've been great with these).  I switched skates not long after this (went to CCM) so I never really had a chance to give them any more of a chance.  I do still think it's a great idea so I'm looking fwd to what JR thinks about them when he finds some ice to try them on.

What you say is extremely interesting. I use a slight forward pitch in my profile, and so maybe if I were to try these I should use a neutral one. I'm super curious to try this in the future.

Thinking more about it last night, even if you take away the rebounding force, would there be more contact between the steel and the ice during the end of your stride (just like clap skates) which would help stabilize your stride. I also wonder if some people who weigh on the extremes (too little or too much) would see less of a benefit or even a detriment to their stride.

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

17 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

The blade is the spring, the front is unsupported and flexes up (correct me if I got this wrong).

Correct, the blade itself is a spring. Visualize a diving board. Supported and anchored at the back, and free float at the front. Any deflection or "flex" results in built up potential energy that is released when the force is removed (either the diver jumping and releasing contact, or the skaters foot pushing off, and releasing contact), allowing the item to spring back to its original position and output energy. In the case of blades, the flex is extremely stiff and minuscule to the diving board, but the same concept.  Thats on the "performance or power" front. Now for the "health and injury prevention" side. Running on a grass is better on your knees than concrete, jumping on a trampoline is better on your knees than solid ground, skating on Bladetech is better on your knees than a static rigid blade. The dynamic motion adds some benefit to the user by reducing and/or elongating the impact shockwaves. Similar to many sports equipment, springs are everywhere, people just dont notice them unless they look like a coil.... think golf balls, club heads, golf shafts, hockey sticks, tennis rackets... all can build up potential energy and release it, similar to a spring.  Hope that helps.

[BenBreeg 493]

I get the concept, but leaf springs and diving board flex across their width (thinnest part flexes).  It woulds seem that an object is going to deflect where is resists the least.  What is keeping this blade from deflecting or twisting?  How is it flexing perfectly in one plane along its edge?  And looking for some answers on the loading portion still.  When we recover and begin a stride, we aren't that forward on our toe, so how is the toe absorbing impact and storing energy in the vertical position?  Lastly, need numbers.  If everything above proves out (loading, alignment, flex, etc) it is going to be all over the map because there will be so many variables- weight of skater, strength of skater, size of steel, stride mechanic, probably more).

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

18 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

Cool, so basically redirecting the vector.

So I'm a nerd and not trying to challenge anything, just find the science interesting.  My next question would be: Upon recovery and transitioning to the "stride" when the loading is applied to the blade, isn't more of the force directed to the middle of the blade and transfers to the toe as the stride is executed?  If so, where is the loading taking place?  I saw the video and that you have the pressure monitor (used to use similar for designing wearable medical devices) which I would suppose help understand how those forces are applied throughout the stride.

Lastly, what is the magnitude of the force being redirected?  Even if the above argument proves to be true, the blade 1) has to store and redirect enough energy to make a difference 2) would have to release it before the skate lifted which could then be dependent on stride mechanics to get the most out of this.

Is the 5% increase in velocity proven out over a large sample set?

All good. Fire the questions away, thats what Im here for. I might take some time to reply, but I will get around to it.  So, I will agree that different skaters have different "gait" or "foot striking" timing and placements. I will also note that the same skater will alter their foot striking placements in different skating methods, forward, backwards, cross-overs...etc. The monitors are able to show exactly the force/pressure applied, and for the exact lengths of times in all areas to understand the strides of each skater. The amount of energy, again, can vary of the skater and the mechanics, but for example 10% of the input energy, which might be 40 pounds, which might come from a 200 pound skater accelerating and applying 400 pounds of force (F=MA) could easily be taken away from the knee joints and absorbed into the blades for potential energy. Some skaters were doing a lot more, getting close to 20% and some less, and then again, dependent on the several different drills we ran and the mechanics in each drill. In terms of point 1) any energy is beneficial, the energy being absorbed would have otherwise have been wasted anyways, so anything is a positive and for 2) all energy absorbed is released AS the skate is lifted, not before, not after, AS, as the force is removed, the energy is released. I think what you are trying to say is, some skating mechanics on certain drills would result on the toe pushoff and the vector of the foot/shin to be in a much more horizontal orientation than in other drills, and hence, the spring load vector release of energy will be more beneficial in some scenarios than others, to that, completely agree, yes. The 5% was an average, and the sample size was sufficient to prove/publish the data based on the amount of impact/benefit observed.

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

19 hours ago, Giltis said:

He alluded to leaf spring suspension, which is something that old cars used to use due to its longevity and simplicity, if you look up Leaf Springs you will see some examples of how it looks like just a bunch of flat sheets stacked on top of one another. 

Basically the simple material science of how a metal that's not bent to a strain point reverts back to its original shape.

Correct, stay in the elastic regime, avoid the plastic regime. 🙂

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

12 hours ago, Neo5370 said:

How is this different from Easton's Parabolic steel from like 15 years ago.

Honestly, I would need to see some more literature on them to give you a better detailed answer. From only what I recall, their "flex" was in the mid point? And not sure if it was up and down, or side to side? Things are a bit unclear from the little i have found. BUT, in any case, those blades are attached via 2 bolts in 2 holes and the toe and heel portion cannot move up/down into and out of the holder. Bladetech has flex up into and out of the holder on the toe, so thats a clear difference. I just never found enough literature from Easton, it was all kind of washed up when we started and you just hear rumours but cant find any hard data (and you are a startup and consumed with 1000 other things to do). Sorry to have only a half-ass answer.

[Giltis 116]

Do you or are there plans to make blades for the new Shift holders?

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

20 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

My concern would be with so much movement the steel may eventually warp/bend under torque. I have seen standard steel bend over time so how does BT prevent the steel from becoming deformed? 

The standard steel you have seen is.... "standard" steel... haha. If you read into metallurgy you will find you can stress an object infinite times without ever deforming it, so long as you keep the level of stress "low" or in the "elastic region" of the materials/geometries ability. Over-stressing a material/geometry, certainly, you can bend it plastically and it will not spring back. But elastically, you are good. Google "plastic vs elastic deformation" and that should answer your questions.... side note... we also use much better steel 😉

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

1 hour ago, BenBreeg said:

I get the concept, but leaf springs and diving board flex across their width (thinnest part flexes).  It woulds seem that an object is going to deflect where is resists the least.  What is keeping this blade from deflecting or twisting?  How is it flexing perfectly in one plane along its edge?  And looking for some answers on the loading portion still.  When we recover and begin a stride, we aren't that forward on our toe, so how is the toe absorbing impact and storing energy in the vertical position?  Lastly, need numbers.  If everything above proves out (loading, alignment, flex, etc) it is going to be all over the map because there will be so many variables- weight of skater, strength of skater, size of steel, stride mechanic, probably more).

The blade is constrained along the side walls/faces in the holder and hence, not able to move in those planes/directions. For the loading portion and numbers, I replied on a different quote so hopefully I answered that ok. Not sure what you mean by all over the map? Our technology would be the exact same as any other piece of equipment. Example CCM saying the new stick gives you 1% more MPH on your shots, TRUE saying their helmet reducing concussion potential by 5%....etc...etc... obviously its built on averages and different players will have differences based on their body/behaviours/mechanics/skill level...etc...etc so of course any and all stats/numbers of any equipment/technology are all over any map, but like most things those individual data points can be averaged/correlated, so not sure what exactly you are starting or asking here.

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

38 minutes ago, Giltis said:

Do you or are there plans to make blades for the new Shift holders?

I guess time will tell 😉  JK haha. I would say that we are looking into it, amongst many other things, but no decisions or timelines have been made at this point. Sorry to not have full clarity yet for ya.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Jeff Azzolin Bladetech

[BenBreeg 493]

Cool, thanks for the replies!  All over the map I mean you can have a heavier, stronger skater in a size 7 skate with the same steel and they are going to compress the steel more and get more out of the stored energy effect.  A lighter, weaker skater with the same skate and steel won't compress it as much and won't get as much if any benefit.  And I would think the flex would change and the steel was sharpened and reduced in thickness.  

[Giltis 116]

3 things:

- I wish there was a way to try them before buying them.

- I see that you have a goalie blade option, I feel like Goalies would benefit a lot for those hard lateral pushes.

- It would be a logistical nightmare with very low returns, but it would be cool if you could have different flex ratings.

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

22 hours ago, Giltis said:

So metals have stress points, I'm sure you've experienced this in some parts.

When you take a metal clothes hanger for example, you can give it a small bend with a very light force and it will spring back to its original shape (you can do this all day and it will come back to its original shape). But if you bend it with more force you can bend it permanently. This is what stress points and yield points are all about (fracture is when it bends so much that it breaks). Different metals have different points of no return where it bends so much that it deforms (it gets a bit more complicated in reality but you get the idea), you've probably have seen or experienced this with tin boxes or aluminum.

So basically this blade, the way it bends upward, doesn't reach the yield point where it would permanently deform so it recovers back to its original shape (they call this aptly the elastic region). And that force that it springs back with is strong enough to propel you (this is the sell). 

Exactly... want a job on the R&D team?

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

21 hours ago, Giltis said:

Oh I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

I think it's only bolted/secured by the back, and the front is free to move up and down (with bottoming out limits on both), but that's speculation, and probably better to have the official guy respond.

Secured at the back, constrained in the middle, free float at the front 🙂

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

21 hours ago, Miller55 said:

I understand that. I'm wondering what it is in contact with? From the picture it just looks like there is a notch in the runner. There had to be some point of continuous contact between the runner and holder for any suspension mechanism to work.

 

Oh nevermind, I get it, it works off of the fin. Duh. 

Contact is continuous for about 2/3 or 3/4 of the length, middle and heel. Front is free float. 🙂 Cheers!

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

5 hours ago, Giltis said:

What you say is extremely interesting. I use a slight forward pitch in my profile, and so maybe if I were to try these I should use a neutral one. I'm super curious to try this in the future.

Thinking more about it last night, even if you take away the rebounding force, would there be more contact between the steel and the ice during the end of your stride (just like clap skates) which would help stabilize your stride. I also wonder if some people who weigh on the extremes (too little or too much) would see less of a benefit or even a detriment to their stride.

Google "linear impulse of momentum" equation. More area, more time = more power. Exactly like the clap skate. Then wikipedia all the shattered world records once clap skates came out and the typical margin records are broken in various years on "normal training" versus the "technology implementation" timing.  We apply the same physics and principles as the clap skate, just to a different degree and to a different product 🙂

[Giltis 116]

9 minutes ago, Jeff Azzolin Bladetech said:

Exactly... want a job on the R&D team?

A man can dream 😃

Edited July 28, 2020 by Giltis

[Jeff Azzolin Bladetech 14]

21 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

The steel can only be able to recover in one direction though? Right? Lets call direction that north/south, with the steel flexing into the holder and releasing.

I am more interested in understanding how the steel will recover from east/west movement and load over a period of time. I imagine that players exert force/pressure on the steel when playing hockey that is not only north/south but also east/west.

For example, here is a high quality steel from a high level player who came in for a sharpening. When I was unable to get his steel sharpened perfectly square I decided to check if it was bent, which it obviously was. 

Did you straighten it, and then re-check that player weeks/months/years after? Likely the steel could have been warped from the OEM and has always been that way. The blade is constrained in the holder and would require a huge deal of movement east west to the blade and also to the holder (ie if the blade moves, the holder must move) to generate enough force for plastic deformation like that. If i had to bet, it was from the OEM originally.