Ellipse Profiles – The next revolution in skate profiling?

[yekcoh 0]

The biggest problem with Prosharp profiles is that they are all pitched differently. (I mean "overall pitch") Pitch setting is the most important parameter you can have. You need to find that first. 20mm pivot point really means nothing if you are comparing different profiles. I am using True skates with shift holder and 1.5mm addition to pitch is needed (with ellipse) even though profile already has +20mm pivot point adjustment. If Ellipse feels flat, you need an additional pitch. After skating 1000+ hours with ellipse 1, quad 2 felt like downhill skis. 

Edit: I was writing that 9.5'-10.5' felt more flat than Ellipse, but reason could be more full toe and heel of the new true shift max blade.

Edited December 1, 2022 by yekcoh

[Paluce 24]

51 minutes ago, yekcoh said:

The biggest problem with Prosharp profiles is that they are all pitched differently. (I mean "overall pitch") Pitch setting is the most important parameter you can have. You need to find that first. 20mm pivot point really means nothing if you are comparing different profiles. I am using True skates with shift holder and 1.5mm addition to pitch is needed (with ellipse) even though profile already has +20mm pivot point adjustment. If Ellipse feels flat, you need an additional pitch. E.g. 9.5'-10.5' feels much more flat to me overall, when both are pitched correctly. After skating 1000+ hours with ellipse 1, quad 2 felt like downhill skis. Suprising?

You are absolutely right!  When I profile, I usually go by angle in tenths of a degree to match the pitch for the skaters “new” profile. You can measure steel height at 2 points to determine this.  If the difference in steel height is the same between the two, then the angle or pitch will match from the old profile to the new one. Using this method I have a near perfect success rate where someone has a seamless transition to their new blades. They can spend more time feeling the new profile out vs feeling a change in pitch.

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

I'm confused by the term 'pitched' vs 'Pivot Point'.  To me these are two difference things.  Pivot point is the lowest part of the circle. Prosharp moves the PP anywhere from 12MM to 20MM depending on the size of the blades.  Pitch is something that a PROSHARP AS 2001 can do but it's applied to the entire blades at the same time.  AS 2001 can pitch a blade from .001 to 1.5 DEGREE'S. That is a 'PITCH".  Not sure what measuring at two different points on a blade will do as far as pitch.  With difference radii applied to the blades, you will have less or more steel in portions of the blade, whether its a 6 ft radii or a 20 ft radii.  Some needs to fill me in on what I am missing. 

[beedee 227]

Late 40's something beer leaguer here that plays strictly D. I do lead an occasional rush, but am more stay at home than an end-to-end type of player. I'm skating on Vapor 3x, size 7, and until this weekend was using the stock steel, unmolested other than a few 5/8 sharpenings. I found myself toe-picking here and there, as recently as last game. Something that bugs the crap out of me, as it happens at the most inopportune times. My previous Vapor x500's didnt have tall steel, and I never toe-picked like I am doing in these 3x skates.

I bought them at Pure Hockey and told them basically what I just told you. Initially I was hoping they could just grind down a bit of the steel off the toe, but they recommended that I go with a Zuperior S profile. I got the skates back a day later and went to a public skate. I felt way more on my toes, (reminded me of my Graf Ultra G5's from many years ago) and then almost leaning back a bit to find my balance. Leaning back made me feel like I had too much weight on my heels. I obviously couldn't simulate too much game play type of skating, but I was pivoting from forwards to backwards, backward crossovers, forward crossovers, tight turns (both ways), stops and starts. By the end of the session it didnt feel too foreign. But it was giving me flashbacks of me not really like the pitch of my Grafs and feeling much more comfortable when I got out of those and into my old Vapor x500's.

TLDR; I play beer league D, Pure Hockey recommended a Zuperior profile (and I had it done), does recommendation make sense to you guys?

[Paluce 24]

38 minutes ago, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

I'm confused by the term 'pitched' vs 'Pivot Point'.  To me these are two difference things.  Pivot point is the lowest part of the circle. Prosharp moves the PP anywhere from 12MM to 20MM depending on the size of the blades.  Pitch is something that a PROSHARP AS 2001 can do but it's applied to the entire blades at the same time.  AS 2001 can pitch a blade from .001 to 1.5 DEGREE'S. That is a 'PITCH".  Not sure what measuring at two different points on a blade will do as far as pitch.  With difference radii applied to the blades, you will have less or more steel in portions of the blade, whether its a 6 ft radii or a 20 ft radii.  Some needs to fill me in on what I am missing. 

Measuring blade height at two points gives you the following…. A Horizontal distance (between the points), and a vertical distance (the difference in steel height).  
 

Simple math gets you the Angle in Degree’s. Usually the steel height at the toe is less (forward lean/pitch).   Neutral would have the same steel height. And pitched backwards would have less steel at the heal. 
 

This is a good way to ensure you have the same steel height at the toe and heal from the old profile to the new one and that feeling of being pitchched forwards or backwards will be the same.    Also knowing what profile you are moving to can help you adjust. This a smidge….  Like that Zuperior… it so flat in the heal, there isn’t much rock back there… people feel like that are falling forward, not just because the toe is rounder, but because the heal isn’t, and so, you can lean back to gain that glide benefit which that profile offers..   makes sense.  
 

All depends on what you like, what you were used to, and what you can adapt to if you think it will help you. And finally what you feel comfortable skating on, because that gives you confidence on your skates.

[yekcoh 0]

7 hours ago, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

I'm confused by the term 'pitched' vs 'Pivot Point'.  To me these are two difference things.  Pivot point is the lowest part of the circle. Prosharp moves the PP anywhere from 12MM to 20MM depending on the size of the blades.  Pitch is something that a PROSHARP AS 2001 can do but it's applied to the entire blades at the same time.  AS 2001 can pitch a blade from .001 to 1.5 DEGREE'S. That is a 'PITCH".  Not sure what measuring at two different points on a blade will do as far as pitch.  With difference radii applied to the blades, you will have less or more steel in portions of the blade, whether its a 6 ft radii or a 20 ft radii.  Some needs to fill me in on what I am missing. 

If you move pivot point the way Prosharp advises to do, you are just tilting the blade instead of the template, so the end result will be the same?

[Paluce 24]

4 hours ago, yekcoh said:

If you move pivot point the way Prosharp advises to do, you are just tilting the blade instead of the template, so the end result will be the same?

Yes. 2 different methods to get to the same end result. 

[beedee 227]

Last weekend I got my steel profiled, Zuperior "S" on my size 7 Vapor 3x skates. I'm not so sure I'm liking it. As my other post mentioned, I'm a bit more pitched forward and it has forced my toes a bit more forward in the boot too. Causing them to slightly more than feather the toe-caps. A feeling that I don't like. Not only that, I felt myself consciously noticing that I needed to be leaning back a bit more on my heels or I felt off balance, too far forward. Sharp turns felt a bit better since I could lean on my heels a bit more when apexing a turn without feeling like I'd loop out backwards. But other than that, blah. No toe-picks happened though!

Should I bring them back and see if they can manipulate the profile so I'm not so forward? When I went in and told them I just wanted some steel removed from the front of the runners, a guy recommended the Zuperior S profile. Being rather ignorant to the profile process, I went along with his recommendation. Not really wanting to throw another $45 at this though.

[Paluce 24]

4 hours ago, beedee said:

Last weekend I got my steel profiled, Zuperior "S" on my size 7 Vapor 3x skates. I'm not so sure I'm liking it. As my other post mentioned, I'm a bit more pitched forward and it has forced my toes a bit more forward in the boot too. Causing them to slightly more than feather the toe-caps. A feeling that I don't like. Not only that, I felt myself consciously noticing that I needed to be leaning back a bit more on my heels or I felt off balance, too far forward. Sharp turns felt a bit better since I could lean on my heels a bit more when apexing a turn without feeling like I'd loop out backwards. But other than that, blah. No toe-picks happened though!

Should I bring them back and see if they can manipulate the profile so I'm not so forward? When I went in and told them I just wanted some steel removed from the front of the runners, a guy recommended the Zuperior S profile. Being rather ignorant to the profile process, I went along with his recommendation. Not really wanting to throw another $45 at this though.

$45 to profile… OMG.  

You need to know what you were on before and adjust from there. There are dozens of profiles that can remove a bit of steel from the toe….   Nobody should blindly recommend a profile to another skate without a knowledgeable conversation about what that player is trying to get out of his skates. Do you know what you were on before?

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

Pivot Point and Pitch are two different things.  Pivot Point is the lowest part of the blade, unless it is moved, it will always be in the middle of the blade of the blade is a single radius.  ProSharp moves the PP a little rearward 12MM to 20MM depending on the blade size. Put your skate centered on a pencil.  The center of gravity is straight up.  Same if you standing on the ice.  Now move the skate forward on the pencil.  What happens to the skate, It will fall forward... Pivot Point the CG.  You feel like tipping forward.  To fix this you move your CG by lowing your truck.  You have changed your CG by lower your truck, AKA a hockey stance.   That is what PROSHARP has been getting you to do.  This is NOT pitching the blade. It feels like that but actually pitching the blade would be pitching the entire blade.  On PROSHARP profiles the different radii have different angles of attack on the blade because of the size of the radii.  

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

1 hour ago, Paluce said:

$45 to profile… OMG.  

You need to know what you were on before and adjust from there. There are dozens of profiles that can remove a bit of steel from the toe….   Nobody should blindly recommend a profile to another skate without a knowledgeable conversation about what that player is trying to get out of his skates. Do you know what you were on before?

Problem with guessing what you 'may' like vs actual testing on different profiles until you find one you like. Helps if your proshop is in a rink like mine. 

[Paluce 24]

15 hours ago, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

Problem with guessing what you 'may' like vs actual testing on different profiles until you find one you like. Helps if your proshop is in a rink like mine. 

Absolutely.  ^^^  

When I’m getting serious about blade profiles with a player, I might have 3-5 different sets of steel ready to go to get the players feedback on each. Same ice surface, same day…  nice and controlled environment.  

 

[BenBreeg 493]

It helps if you have a bunch of money and time to experiment with profiles.  Until they figure out a way to quickly dial in and recommend profiles, it's just a revenue generator and not benefitting the general playing population.

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

1 hour ago, BenBreeg said:

It helps if you have a bunch of money and time to experiment with profiles.  Until they figure out a way to quickly dial in and recommend profiles, it's just a revenue generator and not benefitting the general playing population.

I charge 55 and that gets you the testing on ice and 3 profiles. I'm here to help the community not overcharge it. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL

[BenBreeg 493]

24 minutes ago, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

I charge 55 and that gets you the testing on ice and 3 profiles. I'm here to help the community not overcharge it. 

Which is great but I think ProSharp's go to market has sucked.  For every one of you, there are probably 10 guys "doing" profiles without any real knowledge or ability to help people figure out what might work for them.  And that number is probably low, likely more like 50.

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

46 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

Which is great but I think ProSharp's go to market has sucked.  For every one of you, there are probably 10 guys "doing" profiles without any real knowledge or ability to help people figure out what might work for them.  And that number is probably low, likely more like 50.

ProSharp is now owned by Bauer. Bauer is working with Pure Hockey and Monkey Hockey. Just like when you bring your skates in to be sharpened, you have to look at who's doing the work. Reach out if you have any questions about the on-ice process. Others have figured out how to get in touch with me. Its in the title.

Edited December 3, 2022 by PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

2 hours ago, Paluce said:

Absolutely.  ^^^  

When I’m getting serious about blade profiles with a player, I might have 3-5 different sets of steel ready to go to get the players feedback on each. Same ice surface, same day…  nice and controlled environment.  

 

I agree 100% This is the way it should be done. 

[BenBreeg 493]

8 minutes ago, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

ProSharp is now owned by Bauer. Bauer is working with Pure Hockey and Monkey Hockey. Just like when you bring your skates in to be sharpened, you have to look at who's doing the work. Reach out if you have any questions about the on-ice process. Others have figured out how to get in touch with me. Its in the title.

I am fine, but when I think about it, Pure switched to Sparx probably because the kids couldn't even sharpen.  I never would take our skates to Pure, I don't trust that they are going to be able to teach the teenage staff enough to be helpful.

[beedee 227]

On 12/2/2022 at 3:09 PM, Paluce said:

$45 to profile… OMG.  

You need to know what you were on before and adjust from there. There are dozens of profiles that can remove a bit of steel from the toe….   Nobody should blindly recommend a profile to another skate without a knowledgeable conversation about what that player is trying to get out of his skates. Do you know what you were on before?

My skates were in the stock profile from the factory. I told them (Pure Hockey associate) I didnt care for the taller steel, particularly in the front. I would occasionally toe-pick during my beer league games (causing me to fall) and felt that the taller steel was the culprit.  He recommended a Zuperior S, my skates are a size 7, Bauer Vapor 3x. I used them a few times since I picked them up last weekend and didn’t care for how much it put me on my toes. 

Since I’m your average Joe Schmoe beer leaguer I just went along with his suggestion. PH is about 20 minutes away from me, not far but not too close, especially with SoCal traffic. I work full time, M-F and have two kids, extra time isn’t really in my side. My rink with three sheets of ice doesn’t have a pro shop, hard to believe, I know. So I don’t have the luxury of trying out various profiles and returning to the shop to provide feedback.  At this point due to my own ignorance I feel like it has just been a waste of time and money. I’ll pick up my steel tomorrow and be done with it. I asked them to try to get them back to the original factory profile as best they could. Who knows how it will be. Again, all I really wanted was to have some steel shaved off the toe so it was a smoother, more fluid curve. I’m done with driving back and forth to PH. Gas out here is still close to $5 per gallon and my 4Runner drinks it. So each round trip to PH is costing me $10 or so as well. 

[Deke 3]

On 12/2/2022 at 5:25 PM, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

Pivot Point and Pitch are two different things.  Pivot Point is the lowest part of the blade, unless it is moved, it will always be in the middle of the blade of the blade is a single radius.  ProSharp moves the PP a little rearward 12MM to 20MM depending on the blade size. Put your skate centered on a pencil.  The center of gravity is straight up.  Same if you standing on the ice.  Now move the skate forward on the pencil.  What happens to the skate, It will fall forward... Pivot Point the CG.  You feel like tipping forward.  To fix this you move your CG by lowing your truck.  You have changed your CG by lower your truck, AKA a hockey stance.   That is what PROSHARP has been getting you to do.  This is NOT pitching the blade. It feels like that but actually pitching the blade would be pitching the entire blade.  On PROSHARP profiles the different radii have different angles of attack on the blade because of the size of the radii.  

I think most people understand that pivot and pitch are two different things. But most, including myself, want to know when to use one versus the other. To some extent they are both used to accomplish some of the same goals. So is this a matter of equipment limitations or availability? Maybe the preference of the skate tech?

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

3 hours ago, Deke said:

I think most people understand that pivot and pitch are two different things. But most, including myself, want to know when to use one versus the other. To some extent they are both used to accomplish some of the same goals. So is this a matter of equipment limitations or availability? Maybe the preference of the skate tech?

The ProSharp Profiles are an advancement over single and combination radii profiles. Those were the ones that may have also 'pitched' a blade.  With 3 radii on the Zuperior's and four radii on the Quads, those radii change the angle of the blade in reference to the ice. In other words, each section of the blade with a different radius would have a different angle on it. That's where the 'pitch' comes from. Traditional 'pitch' pitches the entire blade with the same angle. Now the radii on each section of a ProSharp blade have each their own 'pitch' or a better word would be angle of attach vs the flat ice. This is where I think some get confused over multiple radii vs pitch. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL

[Deke 3]

7 hours ago, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

The ProSharp Profiles are an advancement over single and combination radii profiles. Those were the ones that may have also 'pitched' a blade.  With 3 radii on the Zuperior's and four radii on the Quads, those radii change the angle of the blade in reference to the ice. In other words, each section of the blade with a different radius would have a different angle on it. That's where the 'pitch' comes from. Traditional 'pitch' pitches the entire blade with the same angle. Now the radii on each section of a ProSharp blade have each their own 'pitch' or a better word would be angle of attach vs the flat ice. This is where I think some get confused over multiple radii vs pitch. 

Thanks for the the explanation. I've been all over the place with pitches and pivot points. The Easton Mako/CXN's were pitched. I skated various Quads on those at various stupid pitches in addition to re-profiling with pitch because nobody told me (or maybe they didn't know) that that was adding pitch to the existing pitch. Eventually I purchased Step steel for those skates and had them profiled with Quad 1's with the 20mm pivot point removed to make them neutral. They skate great! As screwy as all of those bad setups were I managed to adapt. I am happy with the Quad 1 with the neutral pivot point but curious how putting some rearward pivot point back in would affect my stance.

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

11 hours ago, Deke said:

Thanks for the explanation. I've been all over the place with pitches and pivot points. The Easton Mako/CXN's were pitched. I skated various Quads on those at various stupid pitches in addition to re-profiling with pitch because nobody told me (or maybe they didn't know) that that was adding pitch to the existing pitch. Eventually I purchased Step steel for those skates and had them profiled with Quad 1's with the 20mm pivot point removed to make them neutral. They skate great! As screwy as all of those bad setups where I managed to adapt. I am happy with the Quad 1 with the neutral pivot point but curious how putting some rearward pivot point back in would affect my stance.

Deke,  I appreciate your comments and I think we're getting to a core issue. When I was Army test flying helicopters, we always started balancing a rotor system by first hovering, putting grams of lead weights on or off the rotor first to "balance" it at a hover. Then we "track' the blades by fixing the "gap" bringing the together by adjusting the Pitch Control Links, before we even start to fly it. This could take a day but was an important step. Getting things to straighten out at a hover BEFORE even flying was an essential first step. If we didn't spend the time on the ground first, it would NEVER be corrected by flying it in the air. This brings me to my point, Blades in the air or blades on the ice, you have pro shops that are throwing you into the air before knowing anything about how you feel on the ice. I start with you standing on your skates with a single radius and tell me WHAT you feel. Where is your center of gravity (GC).  Then we slowly work through what you're saying by trying single or combination radius first.  Correct yourself first by going back to a single radius. Find your CG, then start adjustments by moving a pivot point, fore or aft.  Now, more acceleration, try a combo 10/13 with "YOUR" pivot point, we continue to work like this until the skater locks in something they like. We work simply and slowly at first, then go more complex and quicker downstream. If you're having problems with your blades, have the neutralize back to a simple profile and work outwards from there.  I work with D1 hockey players, juniors, high school et.  I use this method and give them a "testing" profile which is pre-profiled so costs for doing this are low. Once the skater is locked in, that's when they get charged for the profile. Same cost as if you sent them in the mail to me.  

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL

[Deke 3]

9 minutes ago, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

Deke,  I appreciate your comments and I think we're getting to a core issue. When I was Army test flying helicopters, we always started balancing a rotor system by first hovering, putting grams of lead weights on or off the rotor first to "balance" it at a hover. Then we "track' the blades by fixing the "gap" bringing the together by adjusting the Pitch Control Links, before we even start to fly it. This could take a day but was an important step. Getting things to straighten out at a hover BEFORE even flying was an essential first step. If we didn't spend the time on the ground first, it would NEVER be corrected by flying it in the air. This brings me to my point, Blades in the air or blades on the ice, you have pro shops that are throwing you into the air before knowing anything about how you feel on the ice. I start with you standing on your skates with a single radius and tell me WHAT you feel. Where is your center of gravity (GC).  Then we slowly work through what you're saying by trying single or combination radius first.  Going right to a Zuperior or Quad without knowing anything about what you're feeling on the ice is simply throwing you into the air first. It will "NEVER" be corrected like this. Correct yourself first by going back to a single radius. Find your CG, then start adjustments by moving a pivot point, fore or aft.  Now, more acceleration, try a combo 10/13 with "YOUR" pivot point, we continue to work like this until the skater locks in something they like. We work simply and slowly at first, then go more complex and quicker downstream. If you're having problems with your blades, have the neutralize back to a simple profile and work outwards from there.  I work with D1 hockey players, juniors, high school et.  I use this method and give them a "testing" profile which is pre-profiled so costs for doing this are low. Once the skater is locked in, that's when they get charged for the profile. Same cost as if you sent them in the mail to me.  

 

Stop! This is making too much sense. Let me know when you move to Western Colorado. I'll be your first customer!

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

28 minutes ago, Deke said:

Stop! This is making too much sense. Let me know when you move to Western Colorado. I'll be your first customer!

I get blades sent to me from all over.  With your story (what you feel on the ice)  I could make a recommendation and reprofile your blades or at least recommend what to tell a pro shop to do. goggle it