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PBH

Ellipse Profiles – The next revolution in skate profiling?

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On 7/24/2021 at 4:55 AM, hockeydad3 said:

Because I was searching for something more maneuverable than Ellipse Zero, I had the choice between the Ellipse XS, Zuperior XS and Quad Zero. Finally I made the decision to try the Ellipse XS next.

Due to covid lockdown during the last months, I only had been playing for some Times on TF7 roller skates on outdoor rinks. And I was skating for my own on a pond for maybe 5-10 times during the winter. End of september was the last time I was in a inside hockey rink. So you should take my latest experiences with a grain of salt.

On wednesday I was on ice playing hockey with my almost brandnew TF7( 6.5R 254mm, never played Hockey with them). My first impression with the Ellipse Zero(3/4") was awfull, too much forward pitch, too much steel under my toes and under my heel and the feeling like beeing on rails. After two minutes I changed my Step runners for the stock ones with the Ellipse XS(11/16"). Way better, everything was feeling natural as it should be and more than enough maneuverability, grip and glide.

I will continue with the Ellipse Xs and after some time I will reevaluate again. It would be nice if I had finally found a hockeyskate setup for myself and could concentrate on skating.

I'm kind of feeling the same way in terms of a lack of agility, but for me on the elipse 1 profile.  This is the first time in my 20 years of playing ice hockey that I am experimenting with profiles. 

I recently broke a blade and wanted to refresh my Graf Ultra G75's with new holders and new steel.  I stumbled across the whole "profiling thing" on the web site here, after doing my research and speaking with Anthony at @kkskate, I decided to give it try. 

I am currently on Step Steel 288 blades ( size 10 skate ) and went with the elipse 1 as recommended.  For the most part i like it.  I'm a bigger (6'3 230lbs ), more upright style skater and the only thing I've been going back and forth with Anthony about is that i feel like i a little too much steel under my toe.  I've skated in 3 spirited pick up games and 2 men's league games so far and i feel very balanced on most of the profile.

Anthony did give me a neutral pitch with the profile as we agreed that the Graf's already have a forward pitch to them and like i said, after 4-5 good skates, I feel very balanced and stable the whole way through...….except when i really try to do some crossovers and get a little more agile with the toe.  

I am curious if the elipse 0 would give me a little less steel up front and give me that little bit of extra "pop" and agility in my stride that I feel like I may be missing.

 

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On 9/11/2021 at 12:47 PM, Ric_Flair said:

Which size is it that your skates use, 246 or 254... it can't be both?

I have 2 sets of True customs.  The skates have different holders.  1 is 246 the other is 254.

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3 hours ago, kkskate said:

I have 2 sets of True customs.  The skates have different holders.  1 is 246 the other is 254.

Ah OK. And how do you like that compared to... whatever quad you have tried/used? Am liking the quad (it's on a 263 runner, so I will assume with 95% certainty that it's quad 0); Am moving down to a smaller skate and hence runner shortly (254). What do you suggest I use to "keep the same feeling" when skating?

Thanks maa.

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12 hours ago, Ric_Flair said:

Ah OK. And how do you like that compared to... whatever quad you have tried/used? Am liking the quad (it's on a 263 runner, so I will assume with 95% certainty that it's quad 0); Am moving down to a smaller skate and hence runner shortly (254). What do you suggest I use to "keep the same feeling" when skating?

Thanks maa.

The Quad 0 is still a good fit for 254, you can likely stick with it.

Quad Zero (6-9-11-13 ft, 221-263, 20mm)

I personally skated on the Quad 1 for years with 254 runners and was my favorite.

Quad I (6-9-12-15 ft, 254-280, 20mm pitch)

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21 minutes ago, kkskate said:

The Quad 0 is still a good fit for 254, you can likely stick with it.

Quad Zero (6-9-11-13 ft, 221-263, 20mm)

I personally skated on the Quad 1 for years with 254 runners and was my favorite.

Quad I (6-9-12-15 ft, 254-280, 20mm pitch)

Ah ok, good to know. 
Will try the quad/power profile that comes stock (is it fair to assume it’s a quad XS on the stock 254 Ultrasonics?) 

I will have couple other sets of blades as well. If I wanted to try other quad sizes, is it better to start from “upper size” and move down, in the event I don’t like it and want to resize the quad, for example?

ie. start with quad 1, if I don’t like I can move down to 0 etc… is that the best way to go to not chew away too much blade if/when re-profiling? 

You’ve tried ellipse? Sizes? Like, dis-like? Compare to quads?

Thanks man, much appreciated.

Oh… and the pitch, you mean CL moved back 20mm so that you’re “pitched” forward in stance? Don’t think I like the forward pitch feel, remember my old 704s and couldn’t figure out why I didn’t like them… days before all this analysis etc 

Edited by Ric_Flair
Misspellings etc

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2 hours ago, Ric_Flair said:

Ah ok, good to know. 
Will try the quad/power profile that comes stock (is it fair to assume it’s a quad XS on the stock 254 Ultrasonics?) 

I will have couple other sets of blades as well. If I wanted to try other quad sizes, is it better to start from “upper size” and move down, in the event I don’t like it and want to resize the quad, for example?

Correct in that 254 runners are profiled with the Quad XS on the Ultrasonic.

As for other Quads, I've skated both Quad 0 and Quad 1 on 254 runners.  Liked the Quad 1 and really don't notice a big difference between that and the XS.  As for the Quad 1: Agility and straight line skating were fine, but I felt the longer back of the blade made transitioning from forward to backward skating somewhat difficult.

My all time favorite profile is the 35/65.

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On 9/16/2021 at 12:16 AM, mojo122 said:

Correct in that 254 runners are profiled with the Quad XS on the Ultrasonic.

As for other Quads, I've skated both Quad 0 and Quad 1 on 254 runners.  Liked the Quad 1 and really don't notice a big difference between that and the XS.  As for the Quad 1: Agility and straight line skating were fine, but I felt the longer back of the blade made transitioning from forward to backward skating somewhat difficult.

My all time favorite profile is the 35/65.

I’m relatively new to profiling; what’s the 35/65… does it have any big “pitch”? (Sounds like it would.)
I don’t like to be pitched forward, but I do play forward. My best skating days (Jr. hockey, 20+ years ago) was on a Bauer Supreme 7000 when I had no idea of profiling (so whatever came stock then I guess), and used a 3/8 inch hollow. 
Can you kindly explain a bit about the 35/65… and would you how you compare ellipse profiles to quads? 
Many thanks for your input pal! 

Edited by Ric_Flair

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On 9/15/2021 at 3:26 PM, Ric_Flair said:

Ah ok, good to know. 
Will try the quad/power profile that comes stock (is it fair to assume it’s a quad XS on the stock 254 Ultrasonics?) 

I will have couple other sets of blades as well. If I wanted to try other quad sizes, is it better to start from “upper size” and move down, in the event I don’t like it and want to resize the quad, for example?

ie. start with quad 1, if I don’t like I can move down to 0 etc… is that the best way to go to not chew away too much blade if/when re-profiling? 

You’ve tried ellipse? Sizes? Like, dis-like? Compare to quads?

Thanks man, much appreciated.

Oh… and the pitch, you mean CL moved back 20mm so that you’re “pitched” forward in stance? Don’t think I like the forward pitch feel, remember my old 704s and couldn’t figure out why I didn’t like them… days before all this analysis etc 

The Quad 0 and the Quad 1 are very similar so I don't think it will make too much of a difference either way.  It's possible the Quad 1 might take off more steel to get the 15' radius in the rear.  I like the Ellipse though for my blade size I felt a bit in between the Ellipse XS and the Ellipse 0. 

Correct on the 20 mm.  It's the pivot point of the blade.  It can be customized to your preference.

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After a few weeks with the Ellipse XS I was still not one hundred percent satisfied and this week I tried a Quad Zero Profile with pivotpoint reduced by 10mm. All I can say after a one-hour hockey session is that it plays in the same league as the Ellipse XS, but is still quite different. What I can clearly say is that the forward pitch is less, but still sufficient, and the heel and the toe are much rounder. It feels more like a classic single profile in comparison. In a subjective and retrospective comparison, the Ellipse XS is slightly faster and even more manoeuvrable, but the Quad Zero accelerates better and is better for cross overs. But for an accurate comparison, I first have to get used to the quad and then try it out one-to-one. The winner is far from certain, although the quad profile feels better for me at first.

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Please weigh in on.... Quad XS vs. Quad 0.5 vs. Ellipse XS... on a 254 blade length. 

Feel free to freelance and mention other profiles if you wish, your experiences etc.

Thanks folks.

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On 10/6/2021 at 7:01 AM, Ric_Flair said:

Please weigh in on.... Quad XS vs. Quad 0.5 vs. Ellipse XS... on a 254 blade length. 

Feel free to freelance and mention other profiles if you wish, your experiences etc.

Thanks folks.

You want opinions based on what?

The Quad XS and 0.5 are both slightly similar, but the Ellipse XS is nothing like either of those.

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4 hours ago, PBH said:

You want opinions based on what?

The Quad XS and 0.5 are both slightly similar, but the Ellipse XS is nothing like either of those.

Great. I’d like to know what each offers in terms of speed, acceleration, maneuverability etc. 
 

Slightly similar, does that mean more different then? 
and which of these do you prefer and why?

Thanks! I appreciate your insight 

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@kkskate, @PBH, @mojo122

I've switched back n forth between 263 and 254 recently, tho only a few times yet. Hard to discern a big diff. I think the main thing I want to eliminate was the extra space in the toe box of my size 7 skates (now fit into 6s easily enough). I did that with some sponge foam, but still can feel the extra boot length.

I'll continue to experiment with both before I decide to put 263s on my size 6s or not. 

If I skate on an Ellipse 0 on the 263s (which is the recommended ellipse for the 263 size 7-8 skates) and really liked it, when dropping down a blade size to 254 would you recommend the Ellipse XS (recommended for the 254, sizes 5-6) or would I be better served going with the Ellipse 0 on them as well; anyone have experience with this? 

Thanks
 

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On 3/11/2021 at 4:37 PM, kkskate said:

That's interesting and likely why people need to try things for themselves.  I've recently skated an all 3 (Quads, Ellipse, and Zuperior) and the found the Zuperior to be much different than the Quad and Ellipse. 

This I can agree with. Found Zup much diff, too far forward, less agility... much diff. 
Quad and Ellipse are quite similar IMHO. Can almost agree with how some people describe the "smooth, natural" feeling of the Ellipse. 

Now to figure out whether to use a Ellipse 0 or XS on my 254s. Have used the Ellipse 0 recently on a 263 and it felt great. What's yer thoughts there @kkskate?

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9 minutes ago, Ric_Flair said:

This I can agree with. Found Zup much diff, too far forward, less agility... much diff. 
Quad and Ellipse are quite similar IMHO. Can almost agree with how some people describe the "smooth, natural" feeling of the Ellipse. 

Now to figure out whether to use a Ellipse 0 or XS on my 254s. Have used the Ellipse 0 recently on a 263 and it felt great. What's yer thoughts there @kkskate?

I personally found the Ellipse XS to "short" for my taste on a 254 mm blade.  I felt like I gained a lot of quickness though lost some power and stability.  For me I'd likely go with the Ellipse Zero, the Quad Zero, or the Quad 1.  There is my preference not necessarily advice for others to follow.  I see skaters who like the Ellipse XS on longer blades.  The other thing to consider is when you drop to the XS you loose the senior pitch offset.  It goes from 20 mm to 17 mm.  Not a huge difference though just be aware.

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37 minutes ago, kkskate said:

I personally found the Ellipse XS to "short" for my taste on a 254 mm blade.  I felt like I gained a lot of quickness though lost some power and stability.  For me I'd likely go with the Ellipse Zero, the Quad Zero, or the Quad 1.  There is my preference not necessarily advice for others to follow.  I see skaters who like the Ellipse XS on longer blades.  The other thing to consider is when you drop to the XS you loose the senior pitch offset.  It goes from 20 mm to 17 mm.  Not a huge difference though just be aware.

OK. I am playing in Sweden, bigger ice so like my straight-line speed; I'm good enough skater that I can negate the quickness differential (or, what do you mean when you say you gained a lot of quickness?).
Understand these are your preferences, but from following your threads and based on yer comments I think you're the closest to "my findings" thus far, so I'll use you're opinions/findings as my benchmark 😉

What do you mean about loosing the senior pitch offset? I don't like much being pitched forward... do you mean I'd be pitched further forward on the XS?

Many thanks in advance @kkskate

//BM 

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1 minute ago, Ric_Flair said:

OK. I am playing in Sweden, bigger ice so like my straight-line speed; I'm good enough skater that I can negate the quickness differential (or, what do you mean when you say you gained a lot of quickness?).
Understand these are your preferences, but from following your threads and based on yer comments I think you're the closest to "my findings" thus far, so I'll use you're opinions/findings as my benchmark 😉

What do you mean about loosing the senior pitch offset? I don't like much being pitched forward... do you mean I'd be pitched further forward on the XS?

Many thanks in advance @kkskate

//BM 

I'll add, I was recently informed by the shop I borrowed the quads I was on (and also liked) is a Quad 2... 
I want to avoid the unstable feeling and not having a lot of blade down where I can pick up straight-line speed. 

TIA

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I´m fine-tuning my skate-setup by trying some profiles, cuts, lacing techniques and insoles with my TF7 254mm. I compared Stock profile (9/10') vs. ellipse zero, ellipse zero vs. ellipse xs, ellipse xs vs. quad zero with only 10mm pivot-shift, and my blades just arrived with a quad xs to compare with the quad zero. In my opinion it´s not easy to compare the profiles because I need several hours to get used to a new profile and take full advantage of it.

The ellipse xs has a e better agility, stability and speed compared to the quad zero with 10mm pivot shift, but skating is way easier for me with the quad. Other people have the opinion that the Quad zero has the same agility than the ellipse xs. What can you learn from this information? You have to try it yourself!

Two days ago, I was trying a thin and stiff orthopedic custom insole, which didn´t work in other skates, with my TF7. And wow, more agility, better edge control, better energy transfer, less comfort, but the quad profile feels completely different than with the more cushioned stock insole. Maybe the insole moved my balance point? And now? Stay with the custom insole and start a new profile comparison?

I don´t think that a 263mm runner makes a big difference compared to a 254mm runner as long as the holder is mounted on the same balance point and the pivot point of the profile is centered to the same point towards your balance point as with the 254mm runner. The 263mm runner is only 3,5% longer.

If you are switching from a perfect sized skate to a skate which is too long, you are changing the pivot point of the runner towards your toes, if your heel is locked in and the profile has a standard pivot point on the longer skate.

If you are putting a multi radius profile on a longer or shorter runner than it was designed for, it will change the proportions of the different radii and the pivot point. This means it is a different design than it was originally developped. Even so, of course, this can work for you.

Of course you can correct my theoretical considerations if they should be wrong.

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A lot of what you wrote, I am doing/finding the same, tho I am less structured as I have access to only limited amount of profiles across the sizes with just about all the profiles I've tried thus far are on the 263. 

Without too much of your effort (as you've been pretty generous thus far to describe to me your experiments and findings), in your humble opinion, If I am wearing a size 7 (263) now, heel locked and have about 10-11 mm of "extra space" left in the toe cap (which is why I am moving to size 6 which gives me very snug fit), what ellipse would/should give me the same skating experience? Just off the ice now using 263s with an Ellipse 0... I love it.

And is it easier on the blades (re: which takes more steel away) to first try the 0 and if I don't like go to the advised XS, or the other way around; start with the XS and if I don't like go to 0? 

Many, many thanks @kkskate, come to one of these turbo-beer league tournaments in Europe one day and I'll owe you one! 
 

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I think it will be try and error. It could be that you have to experiment with your pivot point. But Its a complete different setup. A new, unused and shorter Skate itself makes a big difference. If I would be you I`d put on an Ellipse Zero and give the Skate 20h for breaking in. Than reevaluate. Going from Zero to XS should take away less steel. If your new Skates have the Bauer Power Profile, I just would use this Profile for breaking in.

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3 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

I think it will be try and error. It could be that you have to experiment with your pivot point. But Its a complete different setup. A new, unused and shorter Skate itself makes a big difference. If I would be you I`d put on an Ellipse Zero and give the Skate 20h for breaking in. Than reevaluate. Going from Zero to XS should take away less steel. If your new Skates have the Bauer Power Profile, I just would use this Profile for breaking in.

Hi @hockeydad3, and thanks for weighing in. I have a few sets of blades, so yes I certainly will be leaving the "power profile" alone and trying it. It's the other sets that I am curious as to what to profile them at. But OK, I'll try the route as you mentioned, going from 0 to XS if need be.

And regarding the skates, well... they are both 'kinda' new to me. Just started playing again back in the spring and picked up a sparsely used pair of 2X Pros; now I'll have glove-like fitting True Customs (also not brand new, but formfit very well to my foot), and a brand new pair of Hyperlites which I plan to bake of course. Also plan to use Speed Plates 2.0 in both skates.

 

@kkskate, you mentioned above about using diff insoles. Have you tried the Speed Plates and if so do I need to order 1-size up. Have read several places that is the case. 

Thanks to all for your input.

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FWIW, I've tried Speedplates with my VH skates and the arch/instep really got in the way since the boot itself had enough arch/instep for my feet. I guess the Speedplates might be good if your feet have a higher arch/instep than what's built into the boot. But my reason for trying Speedplates was to get a bit of metatarsal arch support that Graf/SIDAS molded footbeds provided on my previous pairs of skates. I just ended up using Specialized Body Geometry cycling footbeds for their metatarsal button, and they come in 3 different instep heights of which I chose the lowest.

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