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carterb

Hockey skate fit -- leg length discrepancy, pronation, supination

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Hi all,

I'm looking to hear from those who have experience dealing with leg length discrepancies, over-supination, and over-pronation in relation to hockey skate fitting. My left foot over-pronates to the point were my left foot is almost situated at an angle that can shave ice (whereas my right is neutral, think / versus |). It's so bad that my boot made a bump (bone spur?) where the top of the boot digs into my bone (this not an issue now that I always wear a bunga gel pad). I haven't had my legs evaluated in a while but I believe I'm also bow-legged and my left leg is a good deal longer than the my right (I assume that would explain the over-pronation in the left foot).

My legs have always been this way (regardless of skate or footbed used). I've played hockey my entire life, so it's not a weak ankle issue. I currently wear a Bauer One95 with superfeet inserts. I ski and it's quite common in that industry to use heel wedges, lifts, custom footbeds to correct these issues but I haven't come across a hockey shop that did that sort of customization. I've found pictures online where rubber pads were inserted between the holder and boot to create a lift--I'm assuming for a leg length discrepancy--here is an example (these are not my skates): http://i.imgur.com/vGFW5wq.jpg

I'm just looking to hear from those who have dealt with these issues. It's been around so long I figured it was time to address it. I'm tempted to purchases some heel wedges ($10) and throw them in my left boot, but I thought I'd then have to had some sort of lift into the right boot to account for the increased leg length discrepancy.

Edited by carterb

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To make you stand the same in both sounds to me like the left may have to be adjusted for center and the right had the lift's installed to compensate for the leg length difference.

A few pics of yous kates would help.

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I haven't had lifts installed in my skates, but yeah, I'm thinking that will be needed. I'm not sure there are any shops around me that have any experience doing it.

My skates are just One95's with the stock holder and superfeet insoles. They have not modified with any sort of lift (complete skate lift, heel lift, heel wedge, etc.).

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Exactly what are you trying to fix? Do you experience foot pain? issues with your skating? I see you're knowledgeable, but I'm having trouble identifying what you're trying to accomplish.

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Where are you located? In fact after reading this I think I finally figured out what my son's issue is. So I will be adding a lift in his right skate as I have centred both holders and then moved the left one in a bit but it still goes in so I will be raising the right skate a very slight bit to accommodate the pronation from the left skate.

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I'm not sure I'm knowledgeable enough to explain the biomechanical issues that arise when your feet aren't situated properly (and/or you have a leg length discrepancy). To put it simply, it makes some movements hard, awkward, or downright impossible to complete.

oldtrainguy28, I'd bet you can find a qualified person who can address those issues. I'm considering taking my skates to a ski bootfitter--any good ski bootfitter can deal with over-pronation/supination and leg length discrepancies. But any sort of lift added to the entire skate (between the holder and boot) would have to be done at a hockey shop.

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Couldn't you see an orthotic specialist to get some footbeds made?

...or use the same footbeds from your ski boots (or the same angle) in your skates?

It seems that the leg length adjustment, as you said, would best be done with a single thickness shim between the holder and the skate. The pronation/supination adjustments (IMHO) would be better done with the footbed, so you could make adjustments.

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So I see 3 issues here:

  1. Leg discreptancy: roughly 2 options you can play with
    1. inside the boot heel lifts : basically place a piece of plastic under your smaller leg's footbed, drawback is that this will take away volume (something you've already lost quite a bit using superfeet, and I'm not even talking about orthopedics. But they are easy to setup and play around with. Definitely worth it for a first impression. This is something the ski shop can definitely help you with
    2. outside the boot heel (and toe) lifts : piece of plastic will be placed between frame and boot, just be sure the piece of plastic is the exact size, you don't want to deal with it after it's done.
  2. Feet shape and support : orthopedics footbed are also something I'd recommend. That or Sidas custom, something your ski shop should probably have around
  3. Overall Skate balance. This is even more complicated than heel lifts as you need to play around with alignment, (meaning probably drilling new holes). This is a pain with hockey skates. Holder mounting system is so archaic in that regards. It is so essential for proper skating though.

Good luck,

There are tons of subject covering your issues you may want to read the following:

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php/topic/30438-leg-length-discrepency-important-read-for-back-pain/

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php/topic/39240-leg-length-discrepancy/

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php/topic/64143-lift-on-skate/

good image of heel lifts at the end : http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php/topic/63143-increase-foward-pitch/

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php/topic/59970-how-to-position-the-chassis-under-the-boot/

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My 13 y.o. son has a leg-length discrepancy, with his left leg being about 2.5 cm shorter than his right leg. For his last two pairs of skates, I've had 2 cm of lift installed on his left skate, between the boot and the holder, front and back. (he also has 2 cm of lift on all of his left foot street shoes). For the newest pair I bought for him 2 weeks ago, I also got him some Superfeet insoles. The shop only charged $20 to install the lift.

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I have a leg length discrepancy of roughly 1 inch, so I thought I would chime in. In my walking shoes I've always opted for a heel lift on the inside of my shoe. When playing ice and roller I have always put my lift in my skates.Recently, I bought a pair of high-end inline skates and decided after 25 years of just using the lift I had the hockey shop add the height in between the holder and the skate. Honestly, it has taken some getting used to because my foot sits differently than I am used to (It fits like it is supposed to) when walking or skating. However, I feel better knowing that my foot is in the right place!

I also play ice but I haven't made the plunge to do the same with my ice skates. However, I am thinking that I will soon enough and get them baked to give me the best fit possible. If I figure out how to post pictures on here, I'll post pictures of my inline skates with the added height.

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Guys,

I need help. I had the Bauer 3D test performed and I am baffled. The machine states that my left foot pronates when standing. However, whenever I put a skate on, my left foot supinates (I feel pressure on the left side of my foot while walking with the skate on and skating). I don't have a clue why of the opposing issues.

Having said this, does anyone have supination issues in one of their skates? How do you fix a skate so that it no longer supinates? 

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Hmm, instead of a machine I'd ask that you get a trained practitioner to determine your gait and stance. As to your question, do you supinate in all skates you have tried on? Often it is the manufacture of the skate that can have the biggest impact. I pronate and have recently learnt to skate with no laces to help correct it. Now I can tell instantly when I put on a skate and the holder is misaligned. Sorry CCM but you guys are one of the worst based on my experience. I recently had a chance to try on multiple pairs of Jetspeeds in my size, every single one was different. It's only 1mm or so difference in the holder alignment but this 1mm makes a huge impact under your foot.

To correct supination you can: 1: move the holder outwards, 2: shim the inside of the skate, 3: get an orthotic made to reshape the foot in the boot, 4: skate with no laces, 5: a mixture of any of the previously mentioned. People usually start with option 2 or 3 because they are the easiest to do, then 1. Option 4 depends on your dedication and desire. Depends on where you live but in NA there are a number of places you can go to get this addressed. Read here for some more info of how they fix foot alignment in skates, these folk generally know what they are doing: http://www.aapsm.org/pdf/humble-skatinga.pdf

Edited by Vet88
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13 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

Hmm, instead of a machine I'd ask that you get a trained practitioner to determine your gait and stance. As to your question, do you supinate in all skates you have tried on? Often it is the manufacture of the skate that can have the biggest impact. I pronate and have recently learnt to skate with no laces to help correct it. Now I can tell instantly when I put on a skate and the holder is misaligned. Sorry CCM but you guys are one of the worst based on my experience. I recently had a chance to try on multiple pairs of Jetspeeds in my size, every single one was different. It's only 1mm or so difference in the holder alignment but this 1mm makes a huge impact under your foot.

To correct supination you can: 1: move the holder outwards, 2: shim the inside of the skate, 3: get an orthotic made to reshape the foot in the boot, 4: skate with no laces, 5: a mixture of any of the previously mentioned. People usually start with option 2 or 3 because they are the easiest to do, then 1. Option 4 depends on your dedication and desire. Depends on where you live but in NA there are a number of places you can go to get this addressed. Read here for some more info of how they fix foot alignment in skates, these folk generally know what they are doing: http://www.aapsm.org/pdf/humble-skatinga.pdf

#5 would be to go VH/True and have your last built to accommodate your supination.

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1 hour ago, Vet88 said:

Hmm, instead of a machine I'd ask that you get a trained practitioner to determine your gait and stance. As to your question, do you supinate in all skates you have tried on? Often it is the manufacture of the skate that can have the biggest impact. I pronate and have recently learnt to skate with no laces to help correct it. Now I can tell instantly when I put on a skate and the holder is misaligned. Sorry CCM but you guys are one of the worst based on my experience. I recently had a chance to try on multiple pairs of Jetspeeds in my size, every single one was different. It's only 1mm or so difference in the holder alignment but this 1mm makes a huge impact under your foot.

To correct supination you can: 1: move the holder outwards, 2: shim the inside of the skate, 3: get an orthotic made to reshape the foot in the boot, 4: skate with no laces, 5: a mixture of any of the previously mentioned. People usually start with option 2 or 3 because they are the easiest to do, then 1. Option 4 depends on your dedication and desire. Depends on where you live but in NA there are a number of places you can go to get this addressed. Read here for some more info of how they fix foot alignment in skates, these folk generally know what they are doing: http://www.aapsm.org/pdf/humble-skatinga.pdf

Hi Vet,

I agree entirely with your suggestion that the manufacturers have many misaligned runners and it has happened to me. Now I check them myself and have posted on this forum a number of things you should look for just to get a good fitting skate that has no problems with it. The LHS most time just take the first box of skates they see in the size you want and there you go. No checking what-so-ever if they do fit and certainly no checking for other issues!

BTW, I am still wrestling with my pronation issues. I thought I had only minor pronation from my wet foot on paper look (mildly pronating), but I decided to buy six - 1 degree shims from a bike shop of Steve Hoggs in Australia to see if I can start over. I want to use a good orthotic and add these shims to it. I have read it is good to have some help with the arch support along with the added wedging, thus the use of the good orthotic I had. These did work well at first, but went down hill fast so they were still in good condition.

I decided to take photos of my Achilles tendons with my feet flat on the floor. I used my iPhone in back of me on the floor and used a remote button. To my surprise my tendons were way off center, worse with the right. So I know I was badly pronating and that I have to post a good amount medially inside the boot. I was going in that direction all along, but I was questioning my "mild" pronation as noted by a few podiatrists, as my arches looked OK, as well my foot imprint.

I have gone almost crazy over the past five years trying to get a happy medium, but never new which way to go!

I have a shoulder injury now, so I won't be back on the ice anytime soon, but I can't wait to try my wedges.

I am going to experiment with the wedges and the camera and add the wedges to each side until my tendons are straight up and following my calf muscles when I bend my knees and my stance. It is the same as before.

I had my wife watching my tendon guards move to the inside and away from my calves when I bent my knees as if I was skating. I knew I had a problem, but kept guessing at how much to post at any given day. Again, the tendon guards should always follow your calf muscles straight up is you do not pronate. They go inwards if you pronate and outwards if you supinate. This may help some of our members.

Cheers - Alan S.

 

 

Edited by smu

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2 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

#5 would be to go VH/True and have your last built to accommodate your supination.

It all depends on how bad the supination is. A mild case and yes, the VH route and the last built to accomodate the supination should help significantly. But if he has significant supination and or any other issues such as a twist or alignment then the best thing is to see a specialist, get an orthotic designed to correct the issues and then use this as part of the build of the skate. That would be the best of both worlds. But its all down to costs and for a lot of people spending upwards of $2k (this includes the orthotic work) on a pair of skates is out their reach.

Edited by Vet88
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1 hour ago, smu said:

Hi Vet,

I agree entirely with your suggestion that the manufacturers have many misaligned runners and it has happened to me. Now I check them myself and have posted on this forum a number of things you should look for just to get a good fitting skate that has no problems with it. The LHS most time just take the first box of skates they see in the size you want and there you go. No checking what-so-ever if they do fit and certainly no checking for other issues!

BTW, I am still wrestling with my pronation issues. I thought I had only minor pronation from my wet foot on paper look (mildly pronating), but I decided to buy six - 1 degree shims from a bike shop of Steve Hoggs in Australia to see if I can start over. I want to use a good orthotic and add these shims to it. I have read it is good to have some help with the arch support along with the added wedging, thus the use of the good orthotic I had. These did work well at first, but went down hill fast so they were still in good condition.

I decided to take photos of my Achilles tendons with my feet flat on the floor. I used my iPhone in back of me on the floor and used a remote button. To my surprise my tendons were way off center, worse with the right. So I know I was badly pronating and that I have to post a good amount medially inside the boot. I was going in that direction all along, but I was questioning my "mild" pronation as noted by a few podiatrists, as my arches looked OK, as well my foot imprint.

I have gone almost crazy over the past five years trying to get a happy medium, but never new which way to go!

I have a shoulder injury now, so I won't be back on the ice anytime soon, but I can't wait to try my wedges.

I am going to experiment with the wedges and the camera and add the wedges to each side until my tendons are straight up and following my calf muscles when I bend my knees and my stance. It is the same as before.

I had my wife watching my tendon guards move to the inside and away from my calves when I bent my knees as if I was skating. I knew I had a problem, but kept guessing at how much to post at any given day. Again, the tendon guards should always follow your calf muscles straight up is you do not pronate. They go inwards if you pronate and outwards if you supinate. This may help some of our members.

Cheers - Alan S.

 

 

Hi Alan, I have followed your efforts over time. Mine came down to a desperate fix, skate with no laces, do zillions of foot strengthening exercises and work my butt off doing balance drills and basically learn how to skate again. Its been a sobering experience and not one that you do lightly but it has fixed my pronation in skates plus a lot of other benefits. If you wedge, it wont work on a flat floor surface, you have to wedge whilst in your skates and its a counter wedge you need ie for pronation you wedge on the outside of the foot to fool the brain into correcting the slope of the "floor" thus bringing your foot / achillies into alignment.

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14 hours ago, Vet88 said:

"If you wedge, it wont work on a flat floor surface, you have to wedge whilst in your skates and its a counter wedge you need ie for pronation you wedge on the outside of the foot to fool the brain into correcting the slope of the "floor" thus bringing your foot / achillies into alignment."

I think my idea is fine. I am using the floor as my skate foot bed as it is hard, flat and level. My good orthotic will rest on the floor with my foot on top. Then wedge medially until my tendons line up with my calf muscles as I bend my knees, with my back straight and knees over my toes.

I can see nothing wrong with this approach. It is the same as just putting "new" orthotics in the skates or as I have been doing the past 4 or 5 years is using Superfeet (they are already medially posted) as the base in the skates and then post them with my normal procedure of inserting something.

Sometimes I would be very successful, sometimes not so. I was guessing thinking, my pronation was minor! Now that I know I am definitely pronating a lot I am looking forward to getting back on the ice with the knowledge I now have. I am feeling very excited, I just wish I had not had the shoulder injury. I ned to give that another few weeks at least.

BTW when I do get my wedges dialed in properly and I am over my COG I am able to take a 9/16" ROH, probably more! Something I never could do before.

I believe I had told you that for a number of years prior to my pronation got the way it is now I used 1/4" ROH to keep my legs together!  I was then able to play good hockey, but I would tire myself out skating through the ice instead of gliding on top, but that's what I need to play near my potential.

Cheers - Alan

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5 hours ago, smu said:

I think my idea is fine. I am using the floor as my skate foot bed as it is hard, flat and level. My good orthotic will rest on the floor with my foot on top. Then wedge medially until my tendons line up with my calf muscles as I bend my knees, with my back straight and knees over my toes.

I can see nothing wrong with this approach. It is the same as just putting "new" orthotics in the skates or as I have been doing the past 4 or 5 years is using Superfeet (they are already medially posted) as the base in the skates and then post them with my normal procedure of inserting something.

Sometimes I would be very successful, sometimes not so. I was guessing thinking, my pronation was minor! Now that I know I am definitely pronating a lot I am looking forward to getting back on the ice with the knowledge I now have. I am feeling very excited, I just wish I had not had the shoulder injury. I ned to give that another few weeks at least.

BTW when I do get my wedges dialed in properly and I am over my COG I am able to take a 9/16" ROH, probably more! Something I never could do before.

I believe I had told you that for a number of years prior to my pronation got the way it is now I used 1/4" ROH to keep my legs together!  I was then able to play good hockey, but I would tire myself out skating through the ice instead of gliding on top, but that's what I need to play near my potential.

Cheers - Alan

A floor doesn't work because it is the opposite wedge to a skate. On a floor you have a surface that doesn't have any give so any wedge you insert exerts an upward pressure into your foot. For pronation you wedge on the inside of the foot, this helps to raise the inner side of the foot and therefore straightening the achillies in relation to the foot. Now if you do the same thing in an ice skate it will fail because there is no resistant surface under the wedge, you actually end up exacerbating the inward lean of the blade. Your foot wants to sit flat in the skate (inherent muscle memory and balance) so if you wedge the outside of the heel it fools the foot into thinking it is leaning to far inwards and it tries to pull itself up. The downside to this approach is it is very difficult to get the wedge and the angle of the blade true (straight up and down). Often you end with the foot reasonably straight but the blade now inclines outward. You are sacrificing one flaw for another. This is why figure skaters move the holder first and if this isn't sufficient then a wedge with holder adjustments follow next. 

Pronation is a complex flaw, there are many different things that can cause it - fallen arches, heel twist, weak foot and ankle muscles, tibia alignment, knee alignment, hip and back alignment - to name just a few. Some or all of these can lead to pronation so fixing the issue in a skate can be a complex matter. In the opposite of what I said above, sometimes a reshape of the arch (a wedge on the inside) is sufficient enough to help.

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On 1/31/2018 at 6:34 PM, Vet88 said:

A floor doesn't work because it is the opposite wedge to a skate. On a floor you have a surface that doesn't have any give so any wedge you insert exerts an upward pressure into your foot. For pronation you wedge on the inside of the foot, this helps to raise the inner side of the foot and therefore straightening the achillies in relation to the foot. Now if you do the same thing in an ice skate it will fail because there is no resistant surface under the wedge, you actually end up exacerbating the inward lean of the blade. Your foot wants to sit flat in the skate (inherent muscle memory and balance) so if you wedge the outside of the heel it fools the foot into thinking it is leaning to far inwards and it tries to pull itself up. The downside to this approach is it is very difficult to get the wedge and the angle of the blade true (straight up and down). Often you end with the foot reasonably straight but the blade now inclines outward. You are sacrificing one flaw for another. This is why figure skaters move the holder first and if this isn't sufficient then a wedge with holder adjustments follow next. 

Pronation is a complex flaw, there are many different things that can cause it - fallen arches, heel twist, weak foot and ankle muscles, tibia alignment, knee alignment, hip and back alignment - to name just a few. Some or all of these can lead to pronation so fixing the issue in a skate can be a complex matter. In the opposite of what I said above, sometimes a reshape of the arch (a wedge on the inside) is sufficient enough to help.

Allan,

I can't say I agree or disagree with your comments, but I do thank you very much for your comments and may change my thoughts on the issue. I am told by a Superfeet rep that this is a difficult problem and my proprioception is the issue much like what you are getting at in your first paragraph above. But, all over the internet we see both methods used, that is, inside the skate medially posting (even in the Superfeet to a small degree) and outside of the boot laterally. The problem is I can adjust the inside much easier than take the chance on posting outside. If outside what thickness do I start at and how many times to get it right? I take a junior skate and see no room to move the holders. Although, I have not asked my LHS their opinion. I may be able to slot the holders more to get some movement. Getting back to my floor I feel that it does equate to the ice and having my posting in the boot. I still will post as I suggest, but check again that my tendon guards are straight up my calves (with laces loose) when getting into the bending knee position with my knees over the toes of the skate while on the floor (on a protected hard surface).

Before I do outside posting I want to try my insides first, once I can get back on the ice. Shoulder injury, like you three or four years ago!

I would love to go the outside of the boot posting, but it does lead to the boot and blade angle looking very awkward as I have seen with my own skates. It works, the only thing that bothers me is how much wedging for the first attempt. The very first time I had that done, about six years ago, was 3mm. I feel I am much more pronated now, but don't know how much to try. Also, I don't feel the height of the inside posting would translate to the same outside posting, what do you think on this point alone?

Cheers - Alan

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I think if you want to manage the posting yourself you should first consider remounting the holder, get the rivets removed and remount with nuts and screws (use #6-32 t-nuts and machine bolts). Now you can experiment to your hearts content. This is what the specialists I have worked with do for their clients, now they can manage micro and macro adjustments without any additional costs other than a change of screw length. Once the thickness and positioning of the posts are determined, then the boots can be reriveted but sometimes clients stay with the adjustable setup so they can alter it at a later date if needed. Although a lot more expensive, I recommend using stainless steel t-nuts.

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48 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

I think if you want to manage the posting yourself you should first consider remounting the holder, get the rivets removed and remount with nuts and screws (use #6-32 t-nuts and machine bolts). Now you can experiment to your hearts content. This is what the specialists I have worked with do for their clients, now they can manage micro and macro adjustments without any additional costs other than a change of screw length. Once the thickness and positioning of the posts are determined, then the boots can be reriveted but sometimes clients stay with the adjustable setup so they can alter it at a later date if needed. Although a lot more expensive, I recommend using stainless steel t-nuts.

Thanks,

That's an idea, I will ask my LHS. I would need to have many different size t-nuts, but I just have to cut them off to suit any changes. I will also see just how much my blades can be moved medially with the elongation of the holes in the holder. This way I could experiment with this method as well and may be the best first approach!

Alan

 

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On 12/26/2013 at 12:38 AM, oldtrainerguy28 said:

To make you stand the same in both sounds to me like the left may have to be adjusted for center and the right had the lift's installed to compensate for the leg length difference.

A few pics of yous kates would help.

Wonder if off setting the blade to change where the force is would work to correct it? 

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11 hours ago, smu said:

Allan,

I can't say I agree or disagree with your comments, but I do thank you very much for your comments and may change my thoughts on the issue. I am told by a Superfeet rep that this is a difficult problem and my proprioception is the issue much like what you are getting at in your first paragraph above. But, all over the internet we see both methods used, that is, inside the skate medially posting (even in the Superfeet to a small degree) and outside of the boot laterally. The problem is I can adjust the inside much easier than take the chance on posting outside. If outside what thickness do I start at and how many times to get it right? I take a junior skate and see no room to move the holders. Although, I have not asked my LHS their opinion. I may be able to slot the holders more to get some movement. Getting back to my floor I feel that it does equate to the ice and having my posting in the boot. I still will post as I suggest, but check again that my tendon guards are straight up my calves (with laces loose) when getting into the bending knee position with my knees over the toes of the skate while on the floor (on a protected hard surface).

Before I do outside posting I want to try my insides first, once I can get back on the ice. Shoulder injury, like you three or four years ago!

I would love to go the outside of the boot posting, but it does lead to the boot and blade angle looking very awkward as I have seen with my own skates. It works, the only thing that bothers me is how much wedging for the first attempt. The very first time I had that done, about six years ago, was 3mm. I feel I am much more pronated now, but don't know how much to try. Also, I don't feel the height of the inside posting would translate to the same outside posting, what do you think on this point alone?

Cheers - Alan

This might give you a number  . You put the skates stand . Then have someone hold a square at your  heel using blade as a center make a mark on the tendon guard. Then roll your ankle to where it's straight.  The distance of the square from the  first mark gives you a tangible value 

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