smu

Thanks for the post, SMU is me, Alan! I have been fighting this problem for years and thought that the VH skate might be the perfect choice until I found out that the blades are not moved most of the time and with just my own remote fitting how good will the offset, either by the built in orthotic or a holder move be? I have had the lateral shims in the right skate 6 or 7 years ago and yes they work, but it is hard to adjust or gauge because the rivets have to come out. VH will put the T-nuts in and if longer ones are needed I can always have that done. I am not sure if you know, but I mentioned the Bont shims. I hope I have answered or responded to your post correctly. but I am heading for a doctor's appointment and need to reply to another. Come back if I have missed something. Cheers - Alan-SMU

JJ, I have a new thread on how to get holders centered for over pronators and have received one post so far. Months ago I asked Rob if he would put T-nuts in so I can have some recourse if I still have a pronation problem after getting the VH skate. This was before I learned that a pronation fix is a built in orthotic and if done remotely may not be the answer. With the T-Nuts I can simply loosen the nuts and slide "Bont" (google it) shims, it's a wonder Scott Van Horn did not suggest this as they are usually used for speed skaters! These shims can be stacked and they have slits in them so the can be slide under the bolts and then the holders tightened down. With some experimentation a good cure should be found. It has been so long since I first started to correspond with Rob that I had forgotten this. Recently Rob mentioned that they don't move holders unless there is an extreem pronation problem and that's not me, but I had forgotten my reasearch on these shims. i am really interested in your movement of your holders medially, how bad was your pronation issue? How much did you move your holders and how did you determine how much to move them over. Usually, in normal feet I understand that a line is drawn from the back of the mid heel up to and between the big tie and the next to it. Should not this same type of procedure be used, that is, your holders are centered in the back but are lined up more towards the 3rd tie perhaps just for the sake of an arguement. Perhaps just shifting them 1/8" together suits all? This would frighten me without more research that's whyci just joined 2 figure skating forums, but now that I remembered the Bont shims and your success I won't need them. How well are they working for you. Cheers, Alan

Mimisk, Thank you for responding and I understand you completely. Let me go back to my younger hockey life. I am considered to be a very good hockey skater, but I always noticed that in order to keep my blades from slipping I needed very sharp skates like 1/4" radius of hollow. I was literally cutting through the ice instead of gliding on it, but I could stand up and have lots of good games. 10 years ago now I had my first bout if right sided sciatica where my right foot had almost no feeling. I was in the US working at the time and within 2 months I felt 100%! When I returned home I decided to play some Summer hockey, but after playing 2 terrible games with my balance off and not being over my edges I stopped playing. At the start of the Fall I bought new skates and was able to have a great fitter about 2.5 hours away that told me right away that my right foot was over pronating and my balance point was too far back. Instead of grinding the steel he put about 3 mm heel lifts on both skates and those lateral shims on my right outside boot, back and front and with that I was nearly back to normal! But, adjustments needed to be done from time to time, but hockey was again great. This fantastic fitter suddenly sold his shop just after I had another sciatica problem in 2012, Again the sciatica was on the same right side, but this was worse and I need help, my fitter was gone with no one to turn to. From there I went to the Chiropractor for orthotics and they did work, but not great, as well I was told that now my left foot was pronating and it was probably from the sciatica even though it was the left foot, but still having right sided sciatica with nerve tingling down the right leg. By this point, probably 2014 I was using Superfeet (I have an email into that company about their new Carbon Superfeet where I think the are not constructed properly) that have minor post on their medial side and they seemed to work right out of the box, but eventually I seem to need to shim them with 1.5-3mm pieces of puck board medially in the heel pocket. Now every time I step on the ice it is a new experience as to what I have to do so I am over my edges. I can tell right away that my blades feel funny and need minor adjustments on the bench. Her is a good point - evver since my first fitter fixed my right foot pronation I had the ability to have my skates sharpened, from my old 1/4" to 3/8" then 5/8" and now it is usually around 1/2 " radius of hollow, something never I thought I could do. With this my leg don't get tired and I am able to glide far easier. Also I can glide on each foot and go in a straight line, I never could do this before. Back to the boot, yes I do know that there is not much room to move holders, but VH say that they will in extreme circumstances, I always assumed that they would be moving the blade so that it is under my center of gravity, not so, I am told that they do the trick by moulding the boot on the inside much like an orthotic, I guess. I have to do a remote fitting myself, they have no technicians in my area, I would have to travel to Toronto Canada from the Halifax Nova Scotia area about a 2.5 hour plane trip. What to do? I have asked if the blades could be put on with T-nuts like the Graf's had. What I could do then is use my plastic pieces in steps like you suggested by loosening the nuts and inserting "Bont" wedges that have slits in them so once the holders are loose they can be slipped between the "bolts". But, I can't understand if my sciatica is causing me problems with possible pelvic shift issues. I am just perplexed and want to play hockey well every time instead of having 50% of my games bad. One thing I have learned is a lot about this subject and about poor and good skates, how to see that the holders are on straight and a host of other material. I seem to know more about the pronation issue and what to do to fix it better than most large hockey skate dealers. Sorry for the long one but if you can add anything more it will be appreciated. Cheers - Alan

A question for the Group; 3 years ago I asked this same question, does anybody know of a hockey skate professional that can move holders medially to give me some positive relief from over pronation. A large hockey shop in Alberta I believe gave me the name of one of their people in the Halifax, Nova Scotia area that could certainly do the job correctly. This "skate sharpener" I was given said my older Bauer X60s (top boot then) would not stand any more work as the holders had been removed several times and there was nothing much to work with. It was suggested I buy a new pair and he could then shift both my holders about an 1/8", why this figure I failed to understand. I purchase a pair of Bauer X80, a step down from what I had and after having them sharpened my guy says that he can't shift the holders as there is not enough room on the foot-bed/sole area. I understand full well now, but I need something done so I can stop inserting shims in the medial heel pocket trying to get it right every game. I want the VH skate and was wondering if I bought the Boot and Blades/holders separately would there be anyone in my area that can place the holders on the boots so my center of gravity is directly over my edges. Whether or not I can find someone here, how exactly is this process done. For normal feet a line is drawn from the center of the heel to between the big toe and the next toe beside it and the holder would be put on following that line, like they are supposed to do, if your feet are normal, off the assembly line. I might have VH place the blades slightly medial using T-nuts similar to what Graf had used and I could elongate the holes in the holder so I could move the holders some more. How does the fitter for a figure skater do his or her job? The pros have their boot and blades separate and the fitter somehow establishes the skaters center of gravity and from that attaches the blades, perhaps it takes a couple of tries, but I would like to know the process from beginning to end. 2. Another question is why won't these same people give me the time of day when I mention what I want done to my hockey skate? Thanks - Alan

Thanks Larry for the pictures and advice, the more information the better. Alan

Thanks, yes please stay in touch later even I want to know what to do to make sure I have my COG over the blades, I hope I don't have to go there as I cannot afford it. I was just at my LHS and changed back to the regular Superfeet, at least I have had some success. The women that waited on me was great and all the new Carbon models were the same, in fact she just had used a pair but was still sliding. She supinates, the opposite of us. I indicated the new ones don't help her and the way the older ones are made they would not help a supinator in my mind. They are really made for over pronaters! I explain his the old ones work and why do the knew ones have the balance in the middle with the posts (still higher medially) not even able to contact the bottom of the boot, what is the good of that. I am just giving the facts from a LHS hockey expert give me what she could about the new Carbon, but have no real answers when I challenged her. Good Luck - Alan

1. I don't think anyone has commented on your pronation problem, that would be more problematic to you and me if that was the case because I have the same problem. I am sure the boot can be fixed or exchanged, but why are you still having a problem with your edges? Try the yellow Superfeet and NOT the new Carbon Superfeet as there appears to be a manufacturing error in my opinion, but read on please! 2. Your problem is my problem and please keep me in the loop even if you are not on the forum by using PM. I am wearing Bauer skates, but the skates are not the issue it is me and like you I am sure, very annoying as many games are a bust. I do add thin shims under my older Superfeet on the medial side of my heel cup area to twist my ankle into a straighter position and usually fixing the problem. Superfeet have built post in the heel area (most people miss this interesting fix) with the higher ones on the medial side (toward the left side if it is in the right skate) to give that twist to the ankle to correct minor pronation problems. This just might just help you if you don't have bad over pronation. 3. If you do purchase the Superfeet they have a 60 DAY NO QUESTIONS ASKED MONEY BACK RETURN POLICY, get a pair and try them out in your new VH skates just to see if they help, you can return them immediately and may give Rob some answers as to how to correct the problem when the skates go back to VH. 4. Stay away, for now, from the new "Carbon Superfeet", I just bought a pair because I felt that perhaps my older Superfeet were a bit soft and I noticed that the posts on the Carbon ones were a bit larger and higher, so it would seem. 5. IMPORTANT, the Carbon Superfeet were not answer this time, something was wrong. In my first game with them just last Thursday I was perplexed after my less than enjoyable game. After the game I took a close look at them after placing them on my counter top along side my old Superfeet and it was very apparent that the posts (what you and I need) did not even touch the counter top, but sat on the middle of the product, rocking left and right! The older Superfeet were beside these sitting nicely on the posts as intended. It would appear that there is a serious problem with the carbon style product, perhaps I was unlucky with this pair or maybe something is really wrong, IMHO. I can speak of only the pair I bought, but I know the older style product very well and why it is made as it is. The Carbon pair will be returned today and I will pick up the older style unless it can be shown that I purchased a dud, if so I will take a very close look at the Carbon ones before those! Somehow I feel the new ones will be all the same. 6. My intentions are to order a pair of VH skates very soon, but it will be the normal remote fitting as in my neck of the woods there is no one doing any fitting, let alone the 3D style. Like you I really want to be over the COG as well, but as you see no one, I don't think, has addressed your problem and they have no idea what we go through, slipping and sliding unless they had the problem. 7. How bad is your problem and how long have you been fighting it to give me some idea of where I stand? Thanks, Alan

1. With respect to building the VH skate for the person with over pronation issues I have been told that the correction will be in the boot itself, like using a built in orthotic (my words). Only when over pronation is an extreme problem will the holders be moved medially. With custom skates my assumption was that the holders were moved medially so that you are over your center of gravity. 2. Perhaps, with the remote fitting, it is too difficult to determine the proper location for the holder shift. I have no understanding of the 3D fitting, so I cannot comment here. 3. If we look at how figure skaters are fitted; they buy their boot and blades without being mounted and then have their trainers mount the blades to suit the center of gravity of each skater. This takes away any pronation or supination problems because they are now over their edges or COG. 4. Using an orthotic does the same thing, but in a more artificial way, my words again. It works, but I would much prefer to have my holders mounted under my true COG, but I guess that won’t happen. I have had orthotics and they do work. Alan

No fitters in Halifax, Nova Scotia! I sure wish there were! We have the NHL presence with Crosby, MacKinnon, Marchand, Giguere, Sheppard etc Alan

I am now unsure what is best, I really thought that if you can be placed directly over you blades by having the holders under your center of gravity then it would not matter if you pronation got worse as you are still over the COG. I don' know if this makes sense, but it is what we are trying to do all along. If you were lucky or unlucky enough to get a pair of skates off the assembly line and happened to be off set, but to your liking the problem would be solved and we would be telling everyone to buy bran X because the skate feels fantastic. There-in lies many problems, not always does the skate come off the line as it is suppose to! Just look at the variance on a few different pair of skates and I have had a few pairs I had to take back because of it. Now when I buy, or when I bought the last couple of skates I am wary. Make sure the holders are square, there are no warp in the soles and about 3 or 4 other things. Anyway, I guess VH (generally) will have the holders as dead on as they can and work with the boot to overcome the pronation issue, I thought there was some way the could, by remote fitting, understand that shifting the holders medially 1/8" or so would be the way to go, but I guess not. Before I order I do want another discussion with VH. I feel I have ruined 50% of my games over the past 5 or 6 years and nobody out there seemed to understand the pronation issue until just a couple of years ago. There may have been experts around, but none near me. I did so much research that I feel I have a good understanding, but I don't know it all! Cheers, Alan

Thanks for getting back, I did understand that it was your son that was having the problem, but I went further to suggest a stop-gap measure to fix a pronation fairly simply. As far as the pronation fix from VH, I assumed that the blade was moved, but I can see just molding a "rise" in the right spot will fix the issue. Why I thought they might put the blade under you center of gravity is from the usual "mechanical fix" that many skaters get, including figure skaters all the time! They get their boot and blades separately and have their expert put the blade directly under the skaters COG. I would think this is the proper way, but our skates off the shelf do not have any room to move the holders in laterally. Why not Google MLX skates that were out 4 or 5 years ago that had a built in system of being able to simply loosen the screws and both holders could be shifted a set amount to of set pronation very easily. I never had a chance to get a pair of these before Easton bought them out and they became the Makos, but they never incorporated the one thing that would have helped many of us with over pronation. this was the movable holder! I have spoken to Rob sometime ago and it was agreed that my skates were going to be made slightly different, hopefully the money will be here soon, I can' wait to get a pair. I may have missed commenting on some of you issues, if there is something I have missed get back to me. Cheers, Alan

I wish I could help more, but I will have to get a remote fitting, unfortunately. I have been going through hell over the past 5 or 6 years not understanding that I was starting to pronate whether due to age, a bad issue with sciatica (twice), pelvis misalignment from the sciatica or all of these, but it seemed like more than a coincidence that it was the sciatica. I would call Rob at VH and put the questions to him, he is great to deal with, although you will have to leave a message and await his call. In the meantime I am using Superfeet as the are built like an orthotic in that the heel end, if you look closely, has little plastic posts and are higher in the bottom of the heel on the medial side (towards the other leg ). This forces your right heel to twist upwards and straightening out the ankle, correcting any mild pronation problems. With me, I finally have figured out what I need, after all these years of grief, having my pronation change on any given day due to mild pronation and my pelvis shifting a bit, altering my pronation. With my Superfeet, I step on the ice and feel how my edges are. If the skates feel fine then I am having a good day. If one or both skates are sliding (not able to use your edges) I quickly add a "flat" 1. 5mm piece of plastic or puck-board, whatever you call it and place a small piece, approximately the length of the heel pocket 2", but less than half the width so the bottom of the Superfeet just sits on the plastic enough to push the heel area up a bit, straightening the ankle out even more. Cut the plastic so it fits semi-circle near the rear, don't go past the midpoint and just cut it off straight on the other end, do not go past the heel pocket, it is just to catch the Superfeet heel area on one side. I have gone back to the bench numerous times and I have various combinations of pieces stacked ( electrical tape) and ready to use depending upon the need. This can take just a minute or two, keep a flat head screwdriver to pull the Superfeet out or you might be cursing! Usually I need at least a 1.5mm, but this Tuesday, my first game, both skates needed 3 mm. But I was then in control of my edges and going to have good game. With this method I went from always having a ROH 1/4" to just over a 1/2", something I never dreamed of doing. Now I am skating and gliding well and not digging through the ice with a 1/2" hollow, tiring myself out! Remember, if a pronation fix like this is done inside the boot the "wedge" needs to go on the side nearest to the other leg (medial). Anymore explanation on this let me know, but I thought it might help between now and when you get your skates. And, let's say your VH skates came and you felt you were not over you edges this would work, but as I understand VH will do whatever they can to help you, in that case. Cheers, Alan

If your holders are misaligned you won't be able to glide straight for sure, but this would be the same for pronation issues, I am sure. Alan

Have not bought mine yet, but will move you blade/holder over so your center of gravity is directly over the blade and thus your 2 blade edges. Alan

I will go for that! As longa s i Can flex it on the ice. Alan

One good reason for lace-bite, in my opinion, is that you may need a more forward (+ plus pitch). I found that problem on the Bauer, but given a good suggestion I had my blades profiled for a higher pitch and it worked. I am not fighting to force my foot into the laces in order to get over my toes for a quick start or whatever. Depending upon your body-build you may have the same problem that I had and If the pitch is higher you are all ready in the proper position with regard to the laces to take those first hard strides where it hurts most people then just hurts all the time. I saw an article where another solution was to have your holders mounted as far back on the boot as possible which would tend to compensate like the higher pitch. Good luck, I know what it feels like and trying to mask it with different tongues or stuffing the area with rubber etc. Alan

If you have a size 5 skate as I do you get the $200 off, Rob knows my age and I am certainly not a "junior age" player and he has quoted the price to me as the junior size. Alan

I recall seeing this video at the start of my last hockey seasons and it was old at that point, I believe.Alan

Thanks and it does seem only right to wait. I had a feeling that they may stop selling to the public or bought out! :)

Thanks for the "best wishes" and the suggestion of waiting, that 2 members saying that. Rob had agreed a change that was not going to be done at first and also some others were free such as heel lifts if needed. I was changing to the better but older LS2 Bauer holders and going with Step Steel. The extra cost of the blades were my responsibility as well as the other normal extras, tongue and reinforced siding. I just hope these will break in for a 130 lb guy! I take a size 5 so I hope the $200 savings is still there. I will ask Rob if he will keep all the notes we had on what I wanted plus the changes. Thanks again - Alan

Thanks for the comments, I think I will wait as I am still wondering if I should have a few mods made anyway. This will give me much more time. Alan

OK, OK, let's stop the laughing now! Sorry guys, between out second grandchild being born and the fact that I almost landed in Fort McMurray as an insurance adjuster this past few days has been like a blur. It was so close to working there Rob gave me the name of one of their fitters not far away and actually had emails back and forth. It now does not look like I will be going, but I guess I was still in hyper mode! I will try tomorrow, my apologies. Alan

As mentioned, I am Halifax/Bedford Nova Scotia. I justc brought up the full content if today's BT, but see nothing relating to any topics such as the VH skates at all! What am I missing? Also, with my hockey just over should I wait for the Fall to order? I am afraid that the price will go up or perhaps VH will stop selling them to the public if they have great success with the pros. I also will have arthroscopy on my right shoulder soon, but with the medical system that could be again the Fall or next year! alan

Halifax Nova Scotia - we have that program but it does it's own local show. I can possibly get it from a podcast or some way. You have my interest for sure as I am ordering skates this coming week. Many thanks, - Alan

If these will work for me, this will be what I want, but will it allow me to play with a full size puck. As i have mentioned before I have had problems with flutter in one piece sticks when receiving passes or the puck seemingly going right through the blade trying to get a hard pass? If i use a wooden blade I will have better luck from experience, but what will 50 flex etc. truly mean as in comparison to other brands, leading me to say again how can I order a stick on-line not knowing the true flex? There has to be some move towards all brands having a standard flex then the players can have a chance of getting what they want. I have paid far too much money over the past few years I have had to go with a lower flex to make sure I can bend it. Given just that I can find a blade easier and cheaper and does not impact as much compared to the flex of the shaft. Alan