The Things Customers Do

[Chadd 916]

Things once thought impossible are common place today. What about automated machines that build a boot around your foot as you sit there? VERY possible. You would get a boot that fit you perfectly, with your own specific features, materials, colors. It would be the best possible fit, and be very individual.

Retail hockey shops will be gone before that happens.

[interpathway 9]

Things once thought impossible are common place today. What about automated machines that build a boot around your foot as you sit there? VERY possible. You would get a boot that fit you perfectly, with your own specific features, materials, colors. It would be the best possible fit, and be very individual.

Retail hockey shops will be gone before that happens.

So will all of us posting on this forum I can assume.

[chippa13 1844]

The LHS's are going to have to adapt to this situation, fair or not. Business is business. It will only get worse. With the rapid increase in technology, it is only a matter of time before online stores are able to properly fit someone from a distance. We have phones that have more processing power than computers did 6 yrs ago, and are the size of a pack of trading cards.... and that was considered Sci-Fi not too long ago....now it is common place. Eventually, the online stores will have some type of technology to do 3-d mapping from data sent to them by the customer, along with some motion video , height and weight, etc....and will be able to fit you as well, or better, than the average LHS. Perhaps the technology will be available to actually create to boot from that data to custom fit every skate. Sound crazy? Im sure chatting with naked women in Russia on a computer was thought of as crazy too once. Wonderful for sure, but crazy :)

Sure, you might be able to measure size through the web someday but you'll never be able to measure comfort or feel.

Never say never. Comfort and feel cant be measured even today, as skates will feel different on the ice, and change over time. What feels comfy now, may not in 3 weeks. That happens all the time.

Things once thought impossible are common place today. What about automated machines that build a boot around your foot as you sit there? VERY possible. You would get a boot that fit you perfectly, with your own specific features, materials, colors. It would be the best possible fit, and be very individual.

Try explaining a carbon fibre OPS and its performance to a hockey player from the 30's. Things like instant custom skates are very possible....but not for a while.

That still doesn't figure out if the skate is comfortable on your foot. That method could create a second skin but a boot that is way too stiff or not stiff enough or doesn't flex the way you need it to. There are some things that you have to do in person.

[eric42434224 1]

So you think that the LHS becoming extinct is a forgone conclusion? I do too.....just a matter of time. Its progress. Good for some, bad for others.

[chippa13 1844]

Yeah, he's not purposely trying to "scam" the store... Like most customers that don't understand that the hockey economy is effed, he just thinks if he can get a better deal somewhere else then why not? If the supermarket sells the same cereal at your "local organics market" for half the price, where you going to buy it from?

I support my LHS 100%, but like I said not everybody knows about how difficult it is to survive in this market.

BS! Everyone who scams, knows they are scamming. They know before they enter they have NO intention of buying. They are only going in to get their size so they can buy online. Premeditated, yes. Scamming is cheating. I can't for the life of me understand why people think this is OK and actually try to stick up for these a-holes. I don't give a crap if your a poor college student, a single mom, whatever. Be an honest person and buy the product from the online store without scamming your LHS. These a-holes want the cheaper prices but want the service and ability to size without paying for it. Be honest people, if you want to buy online, look at the little 2-inch pic online, then try to figure out your size and be a man and take your risk buy buying sight and sizing unseen. LHS are NOT showrooms for online stores and if you use them as such, you are stealing from them. It cost LHS money to display a product. Lots of money. When you cheat them, you are stealing from them, and yes in some cases can force them out of business.. If some SOB comes back to my store after I or my staff spent hrs fitting them for something and they have purchased that item elsewhere, they are no longer welcome in my store. GTF out and go get your sharpening at the online store. Honestly, we don't need those a-holes business.

You always think everyone is out to get you. Thats probably why you hide behind your "twin's" name. You are soo narrow-minded to think that all these people walk in and say, "I bet I can screw this guy over." No, they walk in and say "Wow, it's a lot cheaper online." I wonder how many of these people think "Hey, he has it worse than HG and can't offer their price." Probably not many, that is NOT their fault. You can't blame a child for touching the hot stove when they don't know any better.

I wonder if you feel the same way about offering services online that take away business from local economies because certain websites poise themselves as an authority. Hmm, I wonder if they only do business to those that are in areas that don't have shops that offer those services. Wouldn't that be like stabbing a brother in the back by taking his business?

When people decide to use the services offered on his "twin's" website, do they do so after wasting the time of the local guy first?

[Chadd 916]

So you think that the LHS becoming extinct is a forgone conclusion? I do too.....just a matter of time. Its progress. Good for some, bad for others.

Yes, I don't think it's going to be much more than another decade or so before you buy your sticks directly from Bauer or Easton and it's not progress at all.

[chippa13 1844]

Folks are still going to need places to sharpen and repair skates and equipment, at the very least.

[eric42434224 1]

The LHS's are going to have to adapt to this situation, fair or not. Business is business. It will only get worse. With the rapid increase in technology, it is only a matter of time before online stores are able to properly fit someone from a distance. We have phones that have more processing power than computers did 6 yrs ago, and are the size of a pack of trading cards.... and that was considered Sci-Fi not too long ago....now it is common place. Eventually, the online stores will have some type of technology to do 3-d mapping from data sent to them by the customer, along with some motion video , height and weight, etc....and will be able to fit you as well, or better, than the average LHS. Perhaps the technology will be available to actually create to boot from that data to custom fit every skate. Sound crazy? Im sure chatting with naked women in Russia on a computer was thought of as crazy too once. Wonderful for sure, but crazy :)

Sure, you might be able to measure size through the web someday but you'll never be able to measure comfort or feel.

Never say never. Comfort and feel cant be measured even today, as skates will feel different on the ice, and change over time. What feels comfy now, may not in 3 weeks. That happens all the time.

Things once thought impossible are common place today. What about automated machines that build a boot around your foot as you sit there? VERY possible. You would get a boot that fit you perfectly, with your own specific features, materials, colors. It would be the best possible fit, and be very individual.

Try explaining a carbon fibre OPS and its performance to a hockey player from the 30's. Things like instant custom skates are very possible....but not for a while.

That still doesn't figure out if the skate is comfortable on your foot. That method could create a second skin but a boot that is way too stiff or not stiff enough or doesn't flex the way you need it to. There are some things that you have to do in person.

Sure it does. It is being created right there for you. Prototypes can be molded in materials that perfectly mimic the initial, or broken in for that matter, stiffness or other attributes. Then when you are happy, the final product can be constructed.

Look, lets not get carried away on what is possible or not. It is just imagination....but if you look back, most of the things you see today were the products of someones imagination and generally thought of as un-doable.

Just saying, in the future, that fitting a skate properly will not be the exclusive domain of the LHS.

So you think that the LHS becoming extinct is a forgone conclusion? I do too.....just a matter of time. Its progress. Good for some, bad for others.

Yes, I don't think it's going to be much more than another decade or so before you buy your sticks directly from Bauer or Easton and it's not progress at all.

Progress is progress....and that is what it will be. Call it another name if you feel the word progress doesnt express it for you adequately.....perhaps evolve, change, develop, etc. The fact is it will never be positive for all involved. In the world of commerce, this type of evolution will not be positive for the small business owner, but will likely be positive for the manufacturer and consumer. Not saying it is all "good", but things are rarely that way.

[Chadd 916]

Folks are still going to need places to sharpen and repair skates and equipment, at the very least.

There will always be skate sharpeners, assuming all of the manufacturers don't go exclusively with t'blade-like products. I just think that you're going to see most equipment purchases being made online, direct from the manufacturers. I think you'll see a few sites handling closeouts but not the current year products.

Progress is progress....and that is what it will be. Call it another name if you feel the word progress doesnt express it for you adequately.....perhaps evolve, change, develop, etc. The fact is it will never be positive for all involved. In the world of commerce, this type of evolution will not be positive for the small business owner, but will likely be positive for the manufacturer and consumer. Not saying it is all "good", but things are rarely that way.

I would call it de-evolution thanks to the wal-mart mentality of so many people. Those people willing to buy online to save $5 are the ones killing the industry and pushing it this direction.

Progress implies forward movement and I don't believe this would be a move forward. In fact, It's just about the antithesis of progress.

[eric42434224 1]

Folks are still going to need places to sharpen and repair skates and equipment, at the very least.

There will be a skate sharpening stand or kiosk that will sharpen skates with far more precision than people. Robots build entire cars, so something like sharpening skates is a breeze. You will be able to insert your skate, tell which variables you want....radius, hollow, rocker...and it will be done perfectly for you every time. You will even be able to have a frequent user card with your preferences on it, preloaded with credits. The precision will be far better than any 16yr old at an LHS could do...and faster. This is actually something that could be done right now.

Any investors want to help me with this idea?

LOL

As far as equipment repair, I may be wrong, but I dont see too much of that in my LHS, but repairing equipment isnt anything that cant be automated. Perhaps it will be like that stick company....insurance for your shin guards, and replacements will be in the shin gurard vending machine next to the skate sharpening kiosk.

Folks are still going to need places to sharpen and repair skates and equipment, at the very least.

There will always be skate sharpeners, assuming all of the manufacturers don't go exclusively with t'blade-like products. I just think that you're going to see most equipment purchases being made online, direct from the manufacturers. I think you'll see a few sites handling closeouts but not the current year products.

Progress is progress....and that is what it will be. Call it another name if you feel the word progress doesnt express it for you adequately.....perhaps evolve, change, develop, etc. The fact is it will never be positive for all involved. In the world of commerce, this type of evolution will not be positive for the small business owner, but will likely be positive for the manufacturer and consumer. Not saying it is all "good", but things are rarely that way.

I would call it de-evolution thanks to the wal-mart mentality of so many people. Those people willing to buy online to save $5 are the ones killing the industry and pushing it this direction.

Progress implies forward movement and I don't believe this would be a move forward. In fact, It's just about the antithesis of progress.

Your assesment of the situation is from only one side of the story. That doesnt mean it isnt valid, but valid from your viewpoint. It is forward from the viewpoint of increasing efficiency and profits for a business.

Good for some, and not for others. I do understand your feelings though.....just that there are three sides to every story.

[sogaduch 0]

There will be a skate sharpening stand or kiosk that will sharpen skates with far more precision than people. Robots build entire cars, so something like sharpening skates is a breeze. You will be able to insert your skate, tell which variables you want....radius, hollow, rocker...and it will be done perfectly for you every time. You will even be able to have a frequent user card with your preferences on it, preloaded with credits. The precision will be far better than any 16yr old at an LHS could do...and faster. This is actually something that could be done right now.

Any investors want to help me with this idea?

LOL

As far as equipment repair, I may be wrong, but I dont see too much of that in my LHS, but repairing equipment isnt anything that cant be automated. Perhaps it will be like that stick company....insurance for your shin guards, and replacements will be in the shin gurard vending machine next to the skate sharpening kiosk.

that may be true but robots do build cars yet there are many recalls put on these cars though which are built by these said machines and sharpening skates is an art not just something to do, there are alot of different variables to this especially when it comes to profiling skates because not two blades will have exact same blade heights too them so you would be assuming the machiens are so advanced they can measure a skate blade in the two main areas of the skate blade to perform a proper profile because if this is not done then all your doing is putting your skates in a machine to just overheat and yeah technology has come a long way since the first machine skate sharpening tool but what would you trust more someone who can suggest different hollows,radius,lean for you and your skating style. you also haven't considered blade alignment of if the blade breaks are you going to be able to replace the blades if your skates are old fashion bauer 3000 where unless you know how to replace the blades without taking the entire tuuk off.

Now regarding the repair side of it there are many times when people just want slight alterations done to the equipment maybe adding more velcro to the elbow strap or there are people who have such sensitive skin that they need a goat skin material to be sewn into all of there equipment yes this is a costly repair but for a child safety im sure they would be willing to do that.

On a side not I do somewhat get a lil giggle about when kids come in with skates they bought online and they want them heated and profiled and aligned propelry to them and I tell them how much it will be and there just in a state of shock and amazement. Granted yes its not a great thing to feel but just reinforces the mind in the kid that saving that extra hundred bucks or so isnt that good of an idea

[eric42434224 1]

I dont see anythng about skate sharpening that is an "art". It could be done with more precision with a robot. Things are done, and things made by Robots with exponentially more difficult parameters than skate sharpening. The only reason it isnt done now is that the technology, while available for over a decade or so, is cost prohibitive. And there were recalls before robots. Remember the Pinto? LOL

Edited October 2, 2008 by eric42434224

[VakarLajos 5]

Folks are still going to need places to sharpen and repair skates and equipment, at the very least.

There will be a skate sharpening stand or kiosk that will sharpen skates with far more precision than people. Robots build entire cars, so something like sharpening skates is a breeze. You will be able to insert your skate, tell which variables you want....radius, hollow, rocker...and it will be done perfectly for you every time. You will even be able to have a frequent user card with your preferences on it, preloaded with credits. The precision will be far better than any 16yr old at an LHS could do...and faster. This is actually something that could be done right now.

Any investors want to help me with this idea?

LOL

As far as equipment repair, I may be wrong, but I dont see too much of that in my LHS, but repairing equipment isnt anything that cant be automated. Perhaps it will be like that stick company....insurance for your shin guards, and replacements will be in the shin gurard vending machine next to the skate sharpening kiosk.

There are automated sharpening machines and the reviews I've heard have been pretty horrid.

How much time do you spend in your LHS? A lot of people don't know what repairs we do because it's all done in the back. People don't want to wait and deal with the warranty for a holder or steel. There will be a lot of aggravation on the part of the players when LHS go under for good.

Then they'll reminisce about the good ole' days when there was a shop in every rink.

[eric42434224 1]

I cant imagine that an automatic sharpener available now, considering what technology you could use to even approach it being cost effective, must truly be horrid. I was only saying that eventually the technology will become cheaper, and that there will be kiosks that will sharpen skates better than humans. I dont think you disagree with that, and I dont disagree that it isnt a viable option right now cost wise to make one.

True I dont know about the repair issue, but it will likely be different in the future. I myself see (in the future of course) a small shop in the rink with one or two employees. Kind of like a catalog store owned by the online giants, where you can get measured and order the equipment. It will have an automated skate sharpener or two, and a small area for immediate repair needs. The LHS as we know it now is marked for extinction....it will evolve into something different....it wont disappear...it will just be forced to change.

[Nick23 0]

There are automatic skate sharpening machines around, but you still need someone who knows their stuff to program and operate it, as most of the time the customers dont know what they are talking about either.

I've ahd one encounter with on of these machines in a shop, the conversation went a little something like:

"Hi, is it possible i get my skates sharpened please?"

"Sure, no problem"

(I then see the machine)

"Is that automatic?"

"Yeah, it does them perfect"

"Ok, can i get a 1/2 ROH please"

"(With a funny look) Ha, a what?"

"...A half inch radius of hollow please"

"What do you mean?"

"...Thats the grind i want"

"This machine doesnt do that, it only does levels 1,2 or 3"

"...Thanks anyway"

[kovalchuk71 212]

Skate sharpening is an art. Go sharpen some skates before you go making stupid assumptions Eric. As stated, different variables come into play with different steel, preferences, etc.

[Chadd 916]

I cant imagine that an automatic sharpener available now, considering what technology you could use to even approach it being cost effective, must truly be horrid. I was only saying that eventually the technology will become cheaper, and that there will be kiosks that will sharpen skates better than humans. I dont think you disagree with that, and I dont disagree that it isnt a viable option right now cost wise to make one.

True I dont know about the repair issue, but it will likely be different in the future. I myself see (in the future of course) a small shop in the rink with one or two employees. Kind of like a catalog store owned by the online giants, where you can get measured and order the equipment. It will have an automated skate sharpener or two, and a small area for immediate repair needs. The LHS as we know it now is marked for extinction....it will evolve into something different....it wont disappear...it will just be forced to change.

Your vision is about as unlikely as anything I can imagine.

[eric42434224 1]

Your vision is about as unlikely as anything I can imagine.

That just isnt true and you know it, but if you feel you must post a response like that, it is your perogative.

Besides, I think everyone here can see it was purely off-the-cuff conjecture. What the LHS will really be in the years to come isnt smoething I have resarched. No one knows for sure what the LHS will evolve into for sure, and my scenario is not impossible. I can imagine of a sh1tload of scenarios less likely, and I am sure you can too.

[Chadd 916]

Your vision is about as unlikely as anything I can imagine.

That just isnt true and you know it, but if you feel you must post a response like that, it is your perogative.

Besides, I think everyone here can see it was purely off-the-cuff conjecture. What the LHS will really be in the years to come isnt smoething I have resarched. No one knows for sure what the LHS will evolve into for sure, and my scenario is not impossible. I can imagine of a sh1tload of scenarios less likely, and I am sure you can too.

If you seriously believe that it may come to that there is nothing I can do to help you.

[eric42434224 1]

Skate sharpening is an art. Go sharpen some skates before you go making stupid assumptions Eric. As stated, different variables come into play with different steel, preferences, etc.

I am sorry, but you are wrong. I dont need to sharpen skates to know that. You think it is an art because you have to adjust and adapt....but that is only because you are human. The proper sharpening can be done by a robotic system that will allow for far more variables and work with far smaller tolerances than a human being. People said the same thing you do when automation took over the auto industry. Faster and higher quality. This isnt really up for debate, as it is just a fact that an automated system will just do it better, and more consistently...that is a fact. The issue is that no one can build a robot machine to do this and make it even remotely cost effective.

And please refrain from saying it is a stupid assumption. I dont tell you it is a stupid assumption to underestimate the abilities of computer/robotic automation, do I? If you were creating something new, as in music or a painting, or something that is subjective in its quality, then I agree with the art position. But skate sharpening is not the case. It has very specific parameters and variables that can easily be calculated and measured to far tighter tolerances by a computer. That really isnt debatable. It just doesnt make any economic or business sense to do it. Not saying it doesnt require great skill to do it, but it isnt anythng that cant be done by computer robotics. There are things being done by systems like that that are far more complex than skate sharpening. Seriously, it would be a rudinmentary task....just not viable money wise.

[kovalchuk71 212]

You give me a headache.

Take it from the people that do it on a daily/weekly basis. It isn't something you can just whirl up to and do.

Edited October 3, 2008 by kovalchuk71

[Gummer12 134]

Cag One, Dupliskate..Case Closed

[eric42434224 1]

Your vision is about as unlikely as anything I can imagine.

That just isnt true and you know it, but if you feel you must post a response like that, it is your perogative.

Besides, I think everyone here can see it was purely off-the-cuff conjecture. What the LHS will really be in the years to come isnt smoething I have resarched. No one knows for sure what the LHS will evolve into for sure, and my scenario is not impossible. I can imagine of a sh1tload of scenarios less likely, and I am sure you can too.

If you seriously believe that it may come to that there is nothing I can do to help you.

Dude, READ my post. I dont seriously think anything on the subject, so no help is needed...sheeesh. Just throwing a scenario out there that was purely conjecture and for the purposes of conversation. Stop taking it so serious (my hypothetical scenario, not the precarious situations currently facing LHS's...that is serious). OK? :)

Edited October 3, 2008 by eric42434224

[Chadd 916]

Skate sharpening is an art. Go sharpen some skates before you go making stupid assumptions Eric. As stated, different variables come into play with different steel, preferences, etc.

I am sorry, but you are wrong. I dont need to sharpen skates to know that. You think it is an art because you have to adjust and adapt....but that is only because you are human. The proper sharpening can be done by a robotic system that will allow for far more variables and work with far smaller tolerances than a human being. People said the same thing you do when automation took over the auto industry. Faster and higher quality. This isnt really up for debate, as it is just a fact that an automated system will just do it better, and more consistently...that is a fact. The issue is that no one can build a robot machine to do this and make it even remotely cost effective.

And please refrain from saying it is a stupid assumption. I dont tell you it is a stupid assumption to underestimate the abilities of computer/robotic automation, do I? If you were creating something new, as in music or a painting, or something that is subjective in its quality, then I agree with the art position. But skate sharpening is not the case. It has very specific parameters and variables that can easily be calculated and measured to far tighter tolerances by a computer. That really isnt debatable. It just doesnt make any economic or business sense to do it. Not saying it doesnt require great skill to do it, but it isnt anythng that cant be done by computer robotics. There are things being done by systems like that that are far more complex than skate sharpening. Seriously, it would be a rudinmentary task....just not viable money wise.

Nobody has been able to produce a system that is better than a human. I'm sure that it's possible given enough money but you aren't going to see a rink spending a million or more on something to sharpen skates. You would also have to have humans set up and calibrate the machine, making operation of this mythical super-sharpener still dependent on people. The new Blackstone spinner system is going to make it much easier for people to do a great job.

Your vision is about as unlikely as anything I can imagine.

That just isnt true and you know it, but if you feel you must post a response like that, it is your perogative.

Besides, I think everyone here can see it was purely off-the-cuff conjecture. What the LHS will really be in the years to come isnt smoething I have resarched. No one knows for sure what the LHS will evolve into for sure, and my scenario is not impossible. I can imagine of a sh1tload of scenarios less likely, and I am sure you can too.

If you seriously believe that it may come to that there is nothing I can do to help you.

Dude, READ my post. I dont seriously think anything on the subject, so no help is needed...sheeesh. Just throwing a scenario out there that was purely conjecture and for the purposes of conversation. Stop taking it so serious (my hypothetical scenario, not the precarious situations currently facing LHS's...that is serious). OK? :)

I forget that some people just pull shit out of their ass to post.

[eric42434224 1]

You give me a headache.

Take it from the people that do it on a daily/weekly basis. It isn't something you can just whirl up to and do.

Good Lord. Either no one is reading my posts, or they are just being too defensive. I in no way am taking anythng away from sharpeners. I cant do it. It takes time and practice. Some are better than others. I get it.

My point is that it isnt the exclusive domain of humans. The technology exists to create it....thats all.

Skate sharpening is an art. Go sharpen some skates before you go making stupid assumptions Eric. As stated, different variables come into play with different steel, preferences, etc.

I am sorry, but you are wrong. I dont need to sharpen skates to know that. You think it is an art because you have to adjust and adapt....but that is only because you are human. The proper sharpening can be done by a robotic system that will allow for far more variables and work with far smaller tolerances than a human being. People said the same thing you do when automation took over the auto industry. Faster and higher quality. This isnt really up for debate, as it is just a fact that an automated system will just do it better, and more consistently...that is a fact. The issue is that no one can build a robot machine to do this and make it even remotely cost effective.

And please refrain from saying it is a stupid assumption. I dont tell you it is a stupid assumption to underestimate the abilities of computer/robotic automation, do I? If you were creating something new, as in music or a painting, or something that is subjective in its quality, then I agree with the art position. But skate sharpening is not the case. It has very specific parameters and variables that can easily be calculated and measured to far tighter tolerances by a computer. That really isnt debatable. It just doesnt make any economic or business sense to do it. Not saying it doesnt require great skill to do it, but it isnt anythng that cant be done by computer robotics. There are things being done by systems like that that are far more complex than skate sharpening. Seriously, it would be a rudinmentary task....just not viable money wise.

Nobody has been able to produce a system that is better than a human. I'm sure that it's possible given enough money but you aren't going to see a rink spending a million or more on something to sharpen skates. You would also have to have humans set up and calibrate the machine, making operation of this mythical super-sharpener still dependent on people. The new Blackstone spinner system is going to make it much easier for people to do a great job.

Your vision is about as unlikely as anything I can imagine.

That just isnt true and you know it, but if you feel you must post a response like that, it is your perogative.

Besides, I think everyone here can see it was purely off-the-cuff conjecture. What the LHS will really be in the years to come isnt smoething I have resarched. No one knows for sure what the LHS will evolve into for sure, and my scenario is not impossible. I can imagine of a sh1tload of scenarios less likely, and I am sure you can too.

If you seriously believe that it may come to that there is nothing I can do to help you.

Dude, READ my post. I dont seriously think anything on the subject, so no help is needed...sheeesh. Just throwing a scenario out there that was purely conjecture and for the purposes of conversation. Stop taking it so serious (my hypothetical scenario, not the precarious situations currently facing LHS's...that is serious). OK? :)

I forget that some people just pull shit out of their ass to post.

As to your first response, you still arent getting what Im saying. The technology to do it isnt mythical, and OF COURSE people have to design, build and calibrate it. Of course it is too expensive to do.....now. Im not talking about now....maybe not even decades. But youre sounding like the auto workers who scoffed at the idea of a "robot" building a car. Everyone just relax. There is not economically viable system to beat a person to sharpen skates right now. That is obvious. But if you think that some geek at MIT couldnt build a system (without budget constraints) to do something like sharpen a friggin skate more consistently with tighter tolerances than a person, you are just being willfully ignorant.

And the last comment makes me think you are just being an a$$hole. I didnt do anything to you, so that comment isnt necessary.

Edited October 3, 2008 by eric42434224